How is Joseph Smith Viewed?

[investigator01]

Question:

Please explain to me how Joseph Smith is viewed in the church.

The feeling driving my question:

Please note that I understand he is one of the founders of the church and he is believed to be a prophet and revelator. I have also read allot of literature regarding him and the church history. Here is my area of concern: I refuse to hold any man in reverence or praise before God. Everyone LDS I have talked to about this said “We do not hold him in reverence or pray to him but that we are thankful”. My eyes can not help but see this differently. For example there are 2 pictures on the way in the church of Joseph. There are also pictures of Christ hung in the same manner right along with Joseph. Maybe I am wrong but technically the second commandment speaks against both. In addition when we attended sacrament one day I could not help but notice that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were mentioned much more than Jesus and the Bible. To me that seems like offering reverence or even praise (especially in Sunday services to our lord who seemed to not be the main focus of discussion) I find that Joseph Smith is referred to quite often in the church which to me seems reverent and praiseful. Why are other revelators of the Bible not mentioned and given thanks if it is the scriptures we are thankful for? Does God not want our full focus on him and his son? Any ideas? Is my logic flawed here?

[HiJolly]

I'm not sure you're talking about logic at all.

And I'm positive many members of the LDS Church have reverence for Joseph Smith Jr.

Praise to the Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HiJolly

[Vort]

Question:

Please explain to me how Joseph Smith is viewed in the church.

As a prophet, seer, and revelator, the restorer of the ancient covenants, the mouthpiece of God on earth, and one of the greatest men ever to walk on it. In the view of many Latter-day Saints, he is the man who has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men on earth than any other man who has ever walked on it (D&C 135). (I happen not to be one of those, but you ask how Joseph is viewed in the Church, so that's part of it.)

Here is my area of concern: I refuse to hold any man in reverence or praise before God. Everyone LDS I have talked to about this said “We do not hold him in reverence or pray to him but that we are thankful”. My eyes can not help but see this differently.

Perhaps your eyes should learn to see differently, or wear glasses, because your observations don't correspond to a very significant degree with mine.

For example there are 2 pictures on the way in the church of Joseph. There are also pictures of Christ hung in the same manner right along with Joseph. Maybe I am wrong but technically the second commandment speaks against both.

How so?

In addition when we attended sacrament one day I could not help but notice that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were mentioned much more than Jesus and the Bible.

I fully believe that the Book of Mormon would be mentioned more than the Bible in a typical LDS service; indeed, I would be surprised to hear you say the reverse.

But Joseph Smith mentioned more than Jesus? I find that exceedingly difficult to believe. I don't know where you live, but I have lived in various locations around the United States (including a few years in Utah), and in every case I have heard Jesus preached in every LDS meeting, but only occasionally Joseph Smith. In fact, I have often wondered why we do not speak more of this magnificent man, seeing as how he is the restorer of the Church and the prophet of this dispensation. I have counted many Sundays where Joseph Smith's name literally is not mentioned one time in my hearing, yet I constantly hear references to the Savior. So I don't buy it. If you are being truthful, then you live in an unusual area, or you just happened to go to Church on Joseph Smith Appreciation Day or something.

Why are other revelators of the Bible not mentioned and given thanks if it is the scriptures we are thankful for? Does God not want our full focus on him and his son? Any ideas? Is my logic flawed here?

Not your logic so much as your observations. How often have I heard people praise Peter for his faithfulness under trial, or Paul for his efforts! How often have I heard Father Adam revered, and Moses held up as the very type of Christ anciently! If you have not heard such things, then I submit you haven't been listening long enough, or perhaps closely enough.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Vort

[Snow]

Question:

Is my logic flawed here?

Yes - but no more than your facts.

1. I've never met a Mormon who didn't hold JS or any of the prophets, modern and ancient is reverence so I wonder if the people you were talking to were really Mormon.

2. The 2nd commandment says no such things. You can check by reading the 2nd commandment... if you know where to find it.

3. I taught Sunday School today and discussed 5 prophets, in addition to the main topic - God - not one of them named Joseph.

[ConvinceTheWorld]

My friend, Jesus the Christ and God the father are on a completely different level than the prophet joseph smith- or any other president of the church for that matter.

We give reverence to Joseph Smith Jr because he was a prophet chosen according to his own dispensation much like Adam, Moses, Abraham, Mosiah, or Nephi.

Question:

In addition when we attended sacrament one day I could not help but notice that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were mentioned much more than Jesus and the Bible.

Unlike other churches, we have the role of strengthening each others testimonies. We face more opposittion than any other christian branch therefore we mention some key subjects unique to our religion in order to promote a unity of mind, heart, and soul among the saints. AKA the doctrine of Zion.

You say you stayed for Sacrament. Do you remember the prayer to which the sacrament was blessed?

"God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this [water] to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen"

Also, did you stay after sacrament by any chance? I am willing to bet you surely would have heard some great sermons on Jesus the Christ.

Edited September 12, 2011 by ConvinceTheWorld

[skippy740]

Doctrine & Covenants 135:3

3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

[selek]

Question:

Please explain to me how Joseph Smith is viewed in the church.

Joseph is seen as a prophet, seer, and revelator- and the first of Christ's latest generation of prophets.

The feeling driving my question:

Please note that I understand he is one of the founders of the church and he is believed to be a prophet and revelator. I have also read allot of literature regarding him and the church history. Here is my area of concern: I refuse to hold any man in reverence or praise before God.

Remarkably- the LDS believe the same thing. We place no man (or woman, or object) before God.

Everyone LDS I have talked to about this said “We do not hold him in reverence or pray to him but that we are thankful”. My eyes can not help but see this differently.

Then perhaps the flaw lies in your interpretation, rather than amongst the faithful Saints around you.

For example there are 2 pictures on the way in the church of Joseph. There are also pictures of Christ hung in the same manner right along with Joseph. Maybe I am wrong but technically the second commandment speaks against both.

Actually, you are wrong.

The 2nd Commandment prohibits "graven images"- which means idols and the like. It does not in any way, shape, manner, fashion, or form apply to simple artwork- which varies from chapel to chapel in any case.

Unless and until the Mormons begin genuflecting, worshipping, or offering sacrifices to the artwork in question, your complaint is utterly without merit.

In addition when we attended sacrament one day I could not help but notice that Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were mentioned much more than Jesus and the Bible.

To quote Edmond Dantes (from the Count of Monte Christ movie), "Perhaps you should get out more."

The "Joseph is talked about more than Jesus" meme is a popular one among anti-Mormons because it is essentially unfalsifiable.

Even if every poster on these boards (and every LDS member on the planet) were to testify to that Jesus and the Bible were mentioned more than Jospeh and the Book of Mormon, the anti-Mormon can smugly claim "well it wasn't that way in the ward I attended."

Ironically, the claim is refuted by an objective analysis of Conference talks and published articles from the Church- which shows that Christ is mentioned far more than Joseph- often by a margin of 3 or 4 times as often (or more).

This is the difference between unprovable anecdote and verifiable fact.

The facts show that the LDS revere and worship God, not Joseph.

The accusation persists only because it is cheap, easy, and almost impossible to pin down to any particular time, place, or ward.

Like the infamous "Have your stopped beating your wife?" question, it is most often an attempt to defame by insinuation, rather than to elicit an honest discussion.

To me that seems like offering reverence or even praise (especially in Sunday services to our lord who seemed to not be the main focus of discussion)

We thank you for your opinion, but it does not accurately reflect our worship or practices.

In every LDS Sacrament meeting, in every LDS priesthood meeting, in every LDS Sunday School, Relief Society, or Priesthood meeting, it is God the Father and Jesus Christ who are being honored, worshipped and revered.

Not Thomas S. Monson, not Gordon B. Hinckley, not Oliver Cowdery, and not Joseph Smith.

We worship God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.

I find that Joseph Smith is referred to quite often in the church which to me seems reverent and praiseful.

Thank you for your opinion. Knowledgeable and reasonable people disagree with your characterization.

Why are other revelators of the Bible not mentioned and given thanks if it is the scriptures we are thankful for?

Just a moment- now you're changing the goalposts.

First you allege that the Mormons place an unhealthy (and perhaps even blasphemous) emphasis on Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, and now you're demanding that we emphasize others?

It seems to me that by your characterization, the LDS are "damned if we do and damned if we don't".

If (per your argument) mentioning Joseph and the Book of Mormon detracts from our worship of Christ, then any mention of anyone or anything else is just as much of a distraction from worshipping Christ.

In point of fact, however, the historical characters and figures from all of the Scriptures (the Bible, the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants) are regularly mentioned in LDS services- in the appropriate context- using their example to draw us closer to Christ.

Whether we are discussing Jacob, Joseph, Joseph Smith, Paul, Noah, Jairus's daughter, or the Gadarene swine, the emphasis is always on bringing the hearer closer to Christ.

Does God not want our full focus on him and his son?

And yet it is you and you alone who are asserting that our focus is NOT on Heavenly Father and his son.

Your case against us (thus far) is built on supposition, anecdote, and innuendo. Can you provide something substantive and objective to back up the accusations you are making?

Is my logic flawed here?

Wildly and disastrously flawed. Skewed beyond error almost into parody. Edited September 12, 2011 by selek

[investigator01]

OK, well in that case I must be wrong and there is no possible way my feelings or experiences could be right or have any truth (OH wait I have not had any meaningful experiences yet) I looked up the second commandment for the first time ever (funny it was hanging on my office wall the whole time). It said:

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;

Bow or serve or make image: Everyone seems to bow to Joseph and the church has images in the church of him. I guess I am the only one on the planet (or site) that feels this way so there is no point in going any further. Thank you all for Quoting from the D&C but please remember I am an investigator and am still investigating the church. It does not help me to quote from a book which I still question. I know everyone believes in The Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price as equal to the Bible and scripture from God. I however, do not have that testimony of those scriptures or Joseph Smith yet which is why I question these claims. The LDS church is the only church that claims this doctrine. I did not have the privilege of having parents to raise me in the LDS church so it may be hard to believe that the theology is new and different to me. I guess if everyone says it true I should just jump right in with out any investigation or logical thought to the topic. Better yet I think it would be smart to blindly follow a group that has already prepared my beliefs’ and feelings for me. I don’t have to do anything but just believe.

That’s easy!!!!!!!

[ConvinceTheWorld]

The 2nd commandment is referring specifically to "wooden objects" that is what is presumably meant by "graven images". Anything Engraven or carved...I.E a "golden calf" or a buddha statue...

Since when is it bad to hold our prophets in high esteem? thats like saying "We preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but respecting the 12 apostles is blasphemy!"

[selek]

OK, well in that case I must be wrong and there is no possible way my feelings or experiences could be right or have any truth (OH wait I have not had any meaningful experiences yet)

This kind of snarky ridicule of both Moroni's promise and personal revelation is common among anti-Mormons. It is seldom found among serious investigators and/or honest seekers of truth.

I looked up the second commandment for the first time ever (funny it was hanging on my office wall the whole time). It said:

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;

Again, no reasonable seeker of truth, Biblical scholar, or honest interpreter of Scripture takes this to refer to simple artwork.

They all concede that the sin being prohibited is idolatry, not painting, or sculpting, or engraving.

Bow or serve or make image: Everyone seems to bow to Joseph and the church has images in the church of him.

The operative word in your sentence is "seems". That's YOUR tendentious interpretation, and despite your growing indignation, you've provided NO evidence to back up your charge.

We've demonstrated amply in both Scripture and practice why your characterization is wrong. The burden of proof is now on you to show where and how we actually do place undue emphasis on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.

I guess I am the only one on the planet (or site) that feels this way so there is no point in going any further.

Not at all. You are not the only one- but every other person I've encountered who has raised this "argument" has proven to have either an ideological axe to grind or to be less-than-honest in how they present themselves.

Rather than objective witnesses, they've demonstrated themselves to be (usually) bitter partisans playing "gotcha" games.

Thank you all for Quoting from the D&C but please remember I am an investigator and am still investigating the church. It does not help me to quote from a book which I still question.

It appears to be equally useless to quote to you from the Bible or to state objective and demonstrable facts.

I know everyone believes in The Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price as equal to the Bible and scripture from God.

As a matter of clarification, we do not believe them to be "equal to the Bible and scripture from God". We believe that they ARE Scripture from God.

Once again, there is an unsubtle difference between your characterization and our belief.

I however, do not have that testimony of those scriptures or Joseph Smith yet which is why I question these claims.

Once again, you're shifting the goal posts. The authenticity of the Book of Mormon, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price have NOTHING TO DO with your assertion that Mormons worship Joseph Smith or place undue emphasis on him.

Joseph Smith's authenticity as a Prophet of God has NOTHING TO DO with the demonstrable, verifiable behavior of the Latter-day Saints.

You've utterly failed to demonstrate or provide any evidence of your allegations- and now you're trying to cloud the issue and change the subject.

The LDS church is the only church that claims this doctrine.

Ummm...to which doctrine are you referring?

If you're talking about the 2nd Commandment, then you're off-base. The LDS interpretation and understanding of the 2nd Commandment is identical to that of every other mainstream Christian denomination on the planet.

If you're talking about the canon of Scripture, I will cheerfully point out that each major division of Christianity has its own version of "canon". The Catholics have books in their Bible that most Protestants do not and vice-versa.

I did not have the privilege of having parents to raise me in the LDS church so it may be hard to believe that the theology is new and different to me.

Did you have the privelege of having parents who raised you not to bear false witness?

The "new theology" complaint is a red-herring. You accused us of placing Joseph Smith before Jesus and have been soundly refuted. That has absolutely nothing to do with "new theology".

I guess if everyone says it true I should just jump right in with out any investigation or logical thought to the topic. Better yet I think it would be smart to blindly follow a group that has already prepared my beliefs’ and feelings for me. I don’t have to do anything but just believe.

Uh-huh.

Call For References- precisely WHERE in this thread has anyone demanded that you "blindly follow" or "jump right in without investigation or logical thought"?

You made a deliberately offensive and tendentious accusation, and you've provided NO evidence to support that accusation.

Callow and asinine accusations aside, the desperate attempt to throw US on the defensive for YOUR behavior speaks strongly to the idea that you're not what you pretend to be.

That’s easy!!!!!!!

Almost as easy as refuting your original insinuation. Edited September 12, 2011 by selek

[skippy740]

Praise to the Man is a hymn that honors Brother Joseph:

LDS Church Music Interactive Music Player

(Which, incidentally, has the tune of an irish drinking song. I can just imagine a bunch of saints in a pub singing this one after hearing of the death of the Prophet. The word of wisdom was just "good counsel" back then!)

[selek]

The 2nd commandment is referring specifically to "wooden objects" that is what is presumably meant by "graven images". Anything Engraven or carved...I.E a "golden calf" or a buddha statue...

I, personally, enjoy watching hard-core Evangelicals spin like tops (or their heads pop) when I point out that by the precise Scriptural definition, a cross is a graven image.

They invariably retort "But we don't worship the cross", to which I reply "And we don't worship paintings in the chapel hallways, either."

Since when is it bad to hold our prophets in high esteem?

Only when it serves as a convenient (if less-than-intellectually-honest) bludgeon against the Church.

But- as with so many other things- what's good for the Eevie gander is never fit for the LDS goose.

[selek]

(Which, incidentally, has the tune of an irish drinking song. I can just imagine a bunch of saints in a pub singing this one after hearing of the death of the Prophet. The word of wisdom was just "good counsel" back then!)

Are you certain it was Irish? I was under the impression that it was Scots in origin.

According to the never-ever-wrong Wikipedia:

Tune

Phelps originally suggested "Star in the East" as the hymn tune,[1] which is probably the same melody as "Star in the East" from Southern Harmony.[citation needed]

Star in the east

"Star in the east" done with four-syllable solfege syllables.

Problems listening to this file? See media help.

The LDS hymnal now uses a melody based on "Scotland the Brave" in honor of Phelps's Scottish heritage. The tune is modified to match the syllable count of the text.

Only the Irish would consider a Scots national anthem to be "a good drinking song".

And for the record, the Word of Wisdom is "good counsel" NOW, too.

Edited September 12, 2011 by selek

[skippy740]

You're right - Scottish. (duh!)

[beefche]

OK, well in that case I must be wrong and there is no possible way my feelings or experiences could be right or have any truth (OH wait I have not had any meaningful experiences yet) I looked up the second commandment for the first time ever (funny it was hanging on my office wall the whole time). It said:

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;

Bow or serve or make image: Everyone seems to bow to Joseph and the church has images in the church of him. I guess I am the only one on the planet (or site) that feels this way so there is no point in going any further. Thank you all for Quoting from the D&C but please remember I am an investigator and am still investigating the church. It does not help me to quote from a book which I still question. I know everyone believes in The Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price as equal to the Bible and scripture from God. I however, do not have that testimony of those scriptures or Joseph Smith yet which is why I question these claims. The LDS church is the only church that claims this doctrine. I did not have the privilege of having parents to raise me in the LDS church so it may be hard to believe that the theology is new and different to me. I guess if everyone says it true I should just jump right in with out any investigation or logical thought to the topic. Better yet I think it would be smart to blindly follow a group that has already prepared my beliefs’ and feelings for me. I don’t have to do anything but just believe.

That’s easy!!!!!!!

Many of the doctrines and understanding LDS members have is because of the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants. So, expect that when we are explaining something, we will use scriptures other than the Bible to explain.

Our understanding of the 2nd commandment in th OT is that we are not to use images to pray to or otherwise use in such a manner. Therefore, you may see artwork in our buildings, but we do not have alters or other structures to allow bowing down, lighting candles, praying, etc to the art.

We use art to remind us of various aspects of the Gospel, including the restoration. Thus, you will see pictures of Joseph Smith or other early members of the church in various parts of the a church building.

Notice, however, that no artwork (including Jesus) is in the chapel area (the place where we hold our sacrament meetings). That is expressly not done for the very reason that we do not want to have members mistakenly begin to pray to the picture or other artwork that may be there. You may see flowers or plants at the pulpit, but no artwork will be displayed in that room.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I find these claims that we elevate Joseph Smith above Christ amusing really. Consider this. In the typical LDS Sacrament meeting:

1. Every talk and testimony closes in the Name of Jesus Christ.

2. We refer to Him about four times in each Sacrament prayer (one for bread, one for water) every single Sunday. And we remember his body and blood EVERY Sunday in a formal sacrament service.

3. The Book of Mormon that everyone carries around with them has the words "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" written across the face of it, signifying its meaning -- another record that is meant to bring others to Christ.

4. The name of Christ is referred to more times in the Book of Mormon than in the Bible, and it's not even as long as the Bible in terms of words. So when people read from the BoM, they have a much higher probabilityh of referring to Christ than if they use the Bible (we like the Bible by the way, and quote from it often as well, as one of our standard works).

Regarding Joseph Smith -- we do tend to talk about him frequently as we believe he is the prophet through whom God restored the truth in the last couple hundred years. And this means a person will often affirm their faith that Christ restored his Church in the latter-days, referring to their gratitude for Joseph Smith and faith that he was in fact a prophet. But we don't elevate him above Christ. You do that and you'll get corrected pretty fast in our Church - and no one even thinks to do it.

Regarding graven images. I don't think it's wrong to have pictures and statues of key figures in religious history -- people do it all the time in other Churches. What the second commandment is warning against is WORSHIPPING these statues and graven images. No one does that in our Church -- ever.

[pam]

I have statues and I have paintings in my home. In fact, one painting in my familyroom is of Joseph Smith in the grove. But I don't kneel, pray, cross myself or anything else that might appear as if I'm worshipping these items.

[pam]

Notice, however, that no artwork (including Jesus) is in the chapel area (the place where we hold our sacrament meetings). That is expressly not done for the very reason that we do not want to have members mistakenly begin to pray to the picture or other artwork that may be there. You may see flowers or plants at the pulpit, but no artwork will be displayed in that room.

Now I'm really going to have to pay attention as I travel around monthly to chapels in the Salt Lake Valley to sing in Sacrament meetings. I am almost certain there have been a couple of buildings that have pictures of Christ in the chapels.

[beefche]

I've never seen it.

And I thought (I could be wrong on this) that there are instructions in the CHI to say no artwork (unless the building already had it) is to be displayed in the chapel. I know that one chapel somewhere has a stained glass window of the First Vision, but it was built a long time ago.

[volgadon]

Only the Irish would consider a Scots national anthem to be "a good drinking song".

I have to chuckle at the number of discs purporting to be of Irish music that contain "Irene, Goodnight."

[rameumptom]

We hold Joseph in the same honor as the Jews hold Moses as the major prophet. We do not worship him. There is a huge difference between honoring a great person and worshiping God.

Second, as to the making of graven images, the warning is in making images to worship. We do not worship the paintings of Jesus or Joseph Smith. You'll note that none are found in the chapel itself. That is where we do our actual worship of God. Joseph Smith is quoted often, because he is the prophet of the restoration. It is no different than Jews quoting Moses or Isaiah as major prophets. In fact, Jesus and the apostles quoted Moses and Isaiah frequently. The Book of Mormon is as much scripture as is the Bible, and testifies more clearly of Christ than does the Bible. Why shouldn't we then use it frequently? Besides, if you were to sit in this year's Gospel Doctrine Sunday School class, you would see that we are studying the New Testament.

Perhaps you are being too nit-picky?

[investigator01]

Ok. Hot button topic I get it. It’s the player against the stadium here. We can all make good points and convince ourselves our theories are true all day long. This only causes contention and an argumentative environment which as I mentioned before I do not wish to be a part of. The reality is that just because someone believes something does not make it true. I guess I ether choose to believe in and praise Joseph Smith or not. It seems like If Joseph did not see God and Jesus then a large majority of the LDS belief system would be false. If he did then it is all true. 50/50 question. What should I believe would be my next question. This question I will have to answer for myself.

[skippy740]

You're asking some good questions and you're getting a good variety of responses. Keep it up! :)

[LeKook]

"Everyone seems to bow to Joseph and the church has images in the church of him. I guess I am the only one on the planet (or site) that feels this way so there is no point in going any further. Thank you all for Quoting from the D&C but please remember I am an investigator and am still investigating the church. It does not help me to quote from a book which I still question. "

I'm newly baptized. Newly confirmed as a member of the church. Up until this moment I have never seen anyone "bow to Joseph Smith". Revere him as a prophet? Honor him as a man who was used by Heavenly Father to restore Christ's church on earth? Yes, and yes. Worship him? Never.

Did you read the Book of Mormon? Did you ask for revelation to know if what's in it is true? Think with your heart, not with your head. What you've written sounds not like your own words, but the words of someone else holding a grudge and feeding that to you.

Have you actually, prayerfully, read the Book of Mormon? Or just a part of it?

Please, take another look. Ignore outside sources. What does your heart tell you? Or is it hard to know because of your other concerns?

How much of the Old and New Testament books have you read? Just curious.

Keep investigating, and don't let comments here or elsewhere get you down. :)

Edited September 13, 2011 by LeKook

[LittleWyvern]

Ok. Hot button topic I get it. It’s the player against the stadium here. We can all make good points and convince ourselves our theories are true all day long. This only causes contention and an argumentative environment which as I mentioned before I do not wish to be a part of.

All our goal is is to let you know what we believe. We're not trying to prove you wrong (or us right), we just want to make sure there is no question as to what our beliefs are.

The reality is that just because someone believes something does not make it true.

Indeed, and I'd go further and encourage you not to take our word for it. Find out for yourself through prayer.

I guess I ether choose to believe in and praise Joseph Smith or not.

Don't sneak "praise" in there like that. It's been said before, but you don't have to worship, bow down to, or praise Joseph Smith at all. It's only a question of whether or not he is a prophet. It's the type of question you'd ask to know if Moses or Noah were prophets: whether they receive revelation from God for the whole church.

It seems like If Joseph did not see God and Jesus then a large majority of the LDS belief system would be false. If he did then it is all true. 50/50 question. What should I believe would be my next question. This question I will have to answer for myself.

Here, though, you're spot on. There's a quote from President Hinckley, the prophet before Thomas Monson, that I think you'll like:

We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.

When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, “Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.”

That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.