Snow Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 When it comes to sexual sin, how does one make restitution? How can one return virtue once it has been lost? That's why it is such a grave sin.That's just nonsense. Your implicit definition of "virtue" here is: not ever having sexual encounters outside of marriage... but that's not a real definition, it's just something you are making up. The real definition is something along the lines of: a : conformity to a standard of right : moralityb : a particular moral excellenceVirtue - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary)Someone who has repented properly of their sins is just as virtuous as someone who has sinned sexually to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 In regards to the book being doctrine or not, I've found that if LDS Distribution carries it, it (generally) has full endorsement by the church.What is "full endorsement by the church?" How does that compare to simple or partial endorsement.What is the source for your claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy740 Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I didn't make a claim. I made a statement. One that you are free to disagree with. Why does someone always have to make a reference to every post one makes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy740 Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 That's just nonsense. Your implicit definition of "virtue" here is: not ever having sexual encounters outside of marriage... but that's not a real definition, it's just something you are making up. The real definition is something along the lines of: a : conformity to a standard of right : moralityb : a particular moral excellenceVirtue - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary)Someone who has repented properly of their sins is just as virtuous as someone who has sinned sexually to begin with. I don't study Merriam-Webster to learn about the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy740 Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Now I'm beginning to wonder if you are for real of if you just trying to say the goofiest thing you can think of in order to get a reaction.Trying to think of something clever to say to this one here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) I didn't make a claim. I made a statement. One that you are free to disagree with.Why does someone always have to make a reference to every post one makes?Seriously?claim = an assertion of something as true, real, or factual Edited September 22, 2011 by Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 I don't study Merriam-Webster to learn about the gospel.You're point being...? That words don't have meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obolus Posted September 24, 2011 Report Share Posted September 24, 2011 When it comes to sexual sin, how does one make restitution? How can one return virtue once it has been lost? That's why it is such a grave sin.I think it is a grave sin for a different reason. The restitution part is just residual.The womb is a veil. Meaning that everything that happens there has direct access to God. When Jesus says that "even if ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me", he's also inferring something about harming others. Being that he also receives the harm that we receive, in all of it's forms.But the body only has one veil, and it is carried by women. If you open that veil, you had better have permission from both the sentinel (the woman) and the owner (God). That veil creates belonging whether matrimony is intended or not. Which is why we see similar consequences for fornication and rape in the OT:"And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife." -Exodus 22:16"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found… she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." -Deuteronomy 22:28-29I agree with Snow that virtue is completely restored to the penitent. Restitution is achieved in time by realizing what the womb is (a direct conduit to God), and by committing to treat it so thereafter. But the womb, in its function as a veil, was never "hers" in the first place. It was always the Lord's. She is merely the gatekeeper of something she will no longer have if she doesn't attain the highest glory of God's kingdom.In fact, its sanctity and holiness never changes in mortality. Not even the wombs of prostitutes lose their holiness or creative power due to sin. It is individuals who either ennoble or profane themselves at that veil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMGuy Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Wow! That might be one of the most sexist things I have ever read. -RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Wow! That might be one of the most sexist things I have ever read.How so? I may not agree with what was said, but I can't see any possible sexism in the idea. Can you explain what you found "sexist"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Maybe I'm thinking too literally, but when Obolus mentioned the veil carried by the woman all I could think of was the hymen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obolus Posted September 25, 2011 Report Share Posted September 25, 2011 Maybe I'm thinking too literally, but when Obolus mentioned the veil carried by the woman all I could think of was the hymen...Yes, the hymen is certainly part of the vulva. But the womb isn't just a vulva. Tying a woman's "virtue" to the hymen is very middle ages. I'm not saying that you are doing so, I'm just saying. The truth about the hymen is that it stretches and can be torn for a number of reasons. So its condition is not an accurate indicator of a woman's virginity, and much less her virtue. But the entire womb is indeed the veil I was referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I don't study Merriam-Webster to learn about the gospel.I agree with you.In the Topical Guide under Virtue it lists the following as other topics associated with Virtue: Chastity, Cleanliness, Goodness, Holiness, Modesty, Purity, and Sacred.Those other topics give a better gospel oriented definition of Virtue then Merriam-Webster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexviper13 Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 In short: its better to die and be on God's good side than to live and be on God's bad side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) I agree with you.In the Topical Guide under Virtue it lists the following as other topics associated with Virtue: Chastity, Cleanliness, Goodness, Holiness, Modesty, Purity, and Sacred.Those other topics give a better gospel oriented definition of Virtue then Merriam-Webster.Snow wasn't claiming that chastity or sexual purity doesn't fall under the domain of virtue, he was objecting to the thought that virtue equals never having had extramarital sex. Edited September 26, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
applepansy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Today I was listening to April Conference while bottling peaches. I just finished listening to Elder Holland. Some of the things he said and quoted reminded me of some of the concerns people have with The Miracle of Forgiveness.Elder Holland says it so much better than I ever could so, here's the link:An Ensign to the Nations - general-conference April 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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