Church's position on sexual activity between husband and wife

[beefche]

For those who can discuss this topic without the jokes, my thoughts are along the lines of pam's. If we know that marital relations should be kept in the bounds the Lord has set and that even in marriage there are things that are against the Lord's standards and thus, offend the Spirit, then why (please tell me because I just don't understand) is it out of the realm of possibility that the Spirit can be present during sex? In other words, one of the most holy and sacred acts we have on earth prevents the presence of God's Spirit? An act that prevents the Spirit's present is, by definition, unholy, evil and even abhorrent.

As a reminder of what I'm talking about, I quote myself from another thread in which this topic was discussed:

Oh come on, people. It isn't like the Spirit is sitting there eating popcorn and watching me and my husband getting it on. But, it is not out of the realm of possibility that the Spirit is present when we are keeping the Lord's commands.

Are you saying that the Spirit isn't present (not physically, but the influence of the Spirit) when we are showering? dressing? picking our nose? Why not when we are having sex? Does that mean that if a single LDS person is in a position that sex is imminent that the Spirit has left him/her to her own and won't warn him/her to flee? What if the Spirit needs to warn me or my husband that a fire began in the house and we need to leave--is He gonna wait until after we are dressed to let us know something?

Now again, I'm not suggesting that Moroni is sitting on the top of the window being all pervy. But, certainly the influence of the Spirit can be present during a sacred act.

[annewandering]

this thread has really lightened my day. Not what the op was looking for but it has been fun.

[annewandering]

For those who can discuss this topic without the jokes, my thoughts are along the lines of pam's. If we know that marital relations should be kept in the bounds the Lord has set and that even in marriage there are things that are against the Lord's standards and thus, offend the Spirit, then why (please tell me because I just don't understand) is it out of the realm of possibility that the Spirit can be present during sex? In other words, one of the most holy and sacred acts we have on earth prevents the presence of God's Spirit? An act that prevents the Spirit's present is, by definition, unholy, evil and even abhorrent.

As a reminder of what I'm talking about, I quote myself from another thread in which this topic was discussed:

Frankly the whole idea still seems pervy to me. There are personal boundries in life and that is one of them. We can have the spirit without having any spirits actually around unless needed.

[Dravin]

We can have the spirit without having any spirits actually around unless needed.

It's at this point it's obvious you aren't actually paying attention, because it was specifically pointing out that people weren't talking about the Holy Ghost being perched on the end of your bed. So I guess feel free to be squicked out by your straw-man, let us know when you want to address what people are actually saying.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Dravin

[pam]

Frankly the whole idea still seems pervy to me. There are personal boundries in life and that is one of them. We can have the spirit without having any spirits actually around unless needed.

But is having the gift of the Holy Ghost and the influence of the Holy Ghost meaning that He is sitting there watching?

I think that's where there is some misunderstanding.

[sister_in_faith]

If anyone is mad at me thinking I was joking, I was actually serious... I couldn't think of any other way to get an answer to the question, is the spirit present when someone is having marital relations... Granted, looking back on it, it is a funny suggestion, but I was totally serious hoping someone would give us a concrete answer!

When I first joined the church I remember having a discussion similar to this during a class. We were told (this was in the young single adult ward) that you shouldn't do anything with your husband or wife that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing with Jesus standing in the room watching you. I remember thinking that I would NEVER even take my clothes off for the rest of my life! I think that advice was a little bizare, and TOO over the top. But that was what they actually told us, and they said it with straight faces!

[beefche]

I'm hoping EVERYONE who is happily married that reads this will do this experiment! hee hee hee! The spirit is gonna be like, what the heck?!?

This question? You mean, this isn't joking? Am I misunderstanding "hee hee hee!"?

[sister_in_faith]

I don't think that was a question?

I think that was a statement.

Yeah, okay, this IS getting a little wierd now.

[Suzie]

...is it out of the realm of possibility that the Spirit can be present during sex? In other words, one of the most holy and sacred acts we have on earth prevents the presence of God's Spirit? An act that prevents the Spirit's present is, by definition, unholy, evil and even abhorrent.

Beefche, is anyone really saying the Holy Ghost influence cannot be felt at all times? I don't think anyone here or in the other thread is/was saying that, IMO. I believe the issue with the other thread was about the desire of being worthy of angel visitations during lovemaking. In this last one, it's a matter of "preference". I do not wish the presence of angels when I am having sex.

[beefche]

From Elder Holland's talk previously linked to...

“sexual intimacy is not only a symbolic union between a man and a woman—the uniting of their very souls—but it is also symbolic of a union between mortals and deity, … uniting for a rare and special moment with God himself and all the powers by which he gives life in this wide universe of ours. … Surely God’s trust in us to respect this future-forming gift is awesomely staggering. … We carry this procreative power that makes us very much like God in at least one grand and majestic way."

Interesting way to frame talking about marital sexual relations and how that is not only symbolic of unity of couple with God, but also uniting with God himself.

[pam]

Beefche, is anyone really saying the Holy Ghost influence cannot be felt at all times? I don't think anyone here or in the other thread is/was saying that, IMO. I believe the issue with the other thread was about the desire of being worthy of angel visitations during lovemaking. In this last one, it's a matter of "preference". I do not wish the presence of angels when I am having sex.

The issue in this thread has become whether we think the Holy Ghost is sitting there watching.

[annewandering]

If anyone is mad at me thinking I was joking, I was actually serious... I couldn't think of any other way to get an answer to the question, is the spirit present when someone is having marital relations... Granted, looking back on it, it is a funny suggestion, but I was totally serious hoping someone would give us a concrete answer!

When I first joined the church I remember having a discussion similar to this during a class. We were told (this was in the young single adult ward) that you shouldn't do anything with your husband or wife that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing with Jesus standing in the room watching you. I remember thinking that I would NEVER even take my clothes off for the rest of my life! I think that advice was a little bizare, and TOO over the top. But that was what they actually told us, and they said it with straight faces!

I do think its a communication problem. As I said before we can feel the spirit without anyone being there. (I think someone missed that) I think this all got started when someone said something about angels watching over them which sounded very wrong to me. And still does.

Sister, I admit I knew you were serious and shouldnt have teased you about it. Nevertheless my husband is serious about saying no way. lol. And I am with him on that.

[pam]

If anyone is mad at me thinking I was joking, I was actually serious... I couldn't think of any other way to get an answer to the question, is the spirit present when someone is having marital relations... Granted, looking back on it, it is a funny suggestion, but I was totally serious hoping someone would give us a concrete answer!

When I first joined the church I remember having a discussion similar to this during a class. We were told (this was in the young single adult ward) that you shouldn't do anything with your husband or wife that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing with Jesus standing in the room watching you. I remember thinking that I would NEVER even take my clothes off for the rest of my life! I think that advice was a little bizare, and TOO over the top. But that was what they actually told us, and they said it with straight faces!

This can only be considered over the top if we allow it to be. I don't think that is how it was intended.

[beefche]

Suzie, I completely understand the thought of having Moroni show up in the midst of my intimate time. I don't think that is something that would happen.

But, if you read my posts, I am specifically referring to the presence of the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit is a man (well, disembodied spirit), but His influence is felt by many, simultaneously. When one says the Spirit cannot be present during that type of behavior, it makes me wonder why can't He? What is so bad about marital sex to prevent the presence of the Spirit?

[annewandering]

Suzie, I completely understand the thought of having Moroni show up in the midst of my intimate time. I don't think that is something that would happen.

But, if you read my posts, I am specifically referring to the presence of the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit is a man (well, disembodied spirit), but His influence is felt by many, simultaneously. When one says the Spirit cannot be present during that type of behavior, it makes me wonder why can't He? What is so bad about marital sex to prevent the presence of the Spirit?

I am thinking that during this time most of us dont really have anything of the sort on our minds. To me thinking about it would be very distracting.

[pam]

I am thinking that during this time most of us dont really have anything of the sort on our minds. To me thinking about it would be very distracting.

Which isn't what beefche is saying either. What she, Dravin and I have said is...we can have the influence of the Holy Ghost even during sex but it doesn't mean he is perched on the bedpost watching.

[annewandering]

Which isn't what beefche is saying either. What she, Dravin and I have said is...we can have the influence of the Holy Ghost even during sex but it doesn't mean he is perched on the bedpost watching.

and I have said the same thing twice now.

[pam]

and I have said the same thing twice now.

Well say it a 3rd time..darn it.

[beefche]

and I have said the same thing twice now.

Would you quote yourself, then, and say it a 3rd time? Because I must have missed it.

[Suzie]

But, if you read my posts, I am specifically referring to the presence of the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit is a man (well, disembodied spirit), but His influence is felt by many, simultaneously. When one says the Spirit cannot be present during that type of behavior, it makes me wonder why can't He? What is so bad about marital sex to prevent the presence of the Spirit?

Well, first of all I would like to say that the Holy Ghost is one of the most mysterious members in the Godhead, IMO. I believe we know very little about "him" compared to what we know of Christ or Heavenly Father so personallyI don't feel I could make a declarative statement on what "he" can or cannot do. I cannot even figure out how his influence travels around.

Having said that, answering your last question, I don't think people in general are fond of the idea of someone being present during an intimate act.

[annewandering]

hmm do i really have to go back and find them? and yes i will say it again. you can have the spirit without any spirit actually being there in person.

[beefche]

I suspect you are right. I was just sitting here thinking this over. The Holy Ghost is a person. He cant follow us all around in person. That does not mean he cant help us or be there when we need him. During sex, I think we can generally take care of that without his presence.

So, do you mean this quote? Where you are essentially saying that the spirit is not present during intimate time? Am I misunderstanding you? Because your posts tell me that you think that the presence of the Spirit during sex is wrong, pervy and generally not feasible.

[Dravin]

I am thinking that during this time most of us dont really have anything of the sort on our minds. To me thinking about it would be very distracting.

As those who have the Gift of the Holy Ghost we are entitled to the presence of the spirit as long as we are worthy of it. We hear accounts of people being woken from a sleep by the prompting of the spirit, one doesn't need to be sitting there doing the equivalent of a Verizon commercial with the spirit ("Are you there? Are you there now? Now?) to have the presence of the spirit with us.

I've had times in my life when the presence of the spirit is highlight by it's following absence. IF we are living worthily the presence of the spirit is with us by virtue of living worthily, constant polling or thinking about scriptures need not be happening. But if I'm playing basketball and joking around with my friends and tell an inappropriate joke and feel the spirit being offended then that means the presence of the spirit was there while I was playing basketball and telling jokes until I grieved it. I assure you I don't make a habit of thinking about the spiritual implications of King Bejamin's discourse while I'm playing basketball.

For a member of the Church living the way they should, the presence of the spirit is the baseline, not the exception.

[annewandering]

Well, first of all I would like to say that the Holy Ghost is one of the most mysterious members in the Godhead, IMO. I believe we know very little about "him" compared to what we know of Christ or Heavenly Father so personallyI don't feel I could make a declarative statement on what "he" can or cannot do. I cannot even figure out how his influence travels around.

Having said that, answering your last question, I don't think people in general are fond of the idea of someone being present during an intimate act.

I agree with you, Suzie. The thought is disconcerting. I think that people, including the Holy Ghost respect us. Has anyone ever heard of anyone, even once, having a visitation during sex, bathing, disrobing etc?

And I do think that we feel the spirit without a spirit being there in person, but that is an opinion. (Number 4 time said)

[annewandering]

So, do you mean this quote? Where you are essentially saying that the spirit is not present during intimate time? Am I misunderstanding you? Because your posts tell me that you think that the presence of the Spirit during sex is wrong, pervy and generally not feasible.

no that is not one of the times. listen. does it matter so much where i said it? or are you just implying i never did say it at all? if so i will go back but dont really want to.