God-breathed

[Justice]

You know, the "God-breathed" has occupied my mind a great deal lately. I come away with 2 main thoughts.

1. The Greek word translated to "inspiration" in the KJV does indeed translate directly into English as "God-breathed." However, the word meant something different in anceint times as the definition it has been given in our language. The word "theopneustos" in their language meant "inspired" according to every expert who knows anything about the Greek language at the time it was written, and is why it was translated inspired in the KJV and not God-breathed. Even though it translates to "God-breathed" in our language it doesn't mean it ever had this meaning of "perfection and controlled" as it has been given in our day. You can't project the definition backward through time and say it's what they meant.

The word in their language literally meant that it was perfect and true at the time "God breathed" it, but it does not mean God controlled any subsequent copying or translating. It does not account for errors that have been made, whether accidental or intentional. It is very narrow and closed minded to believe it meant the same thing in their language as it does in ours.

2. Which translation is "God-breathed?" There are hundreds of Bibles in the world today, in many different languages. There are several different versions or translations in most languages. None of them match perfectly. Which translation is God-breathed?

[prisonchaplain]

I frankly see "God breathed" and "inspired" as the same. It means that the 40 authors of the books of the Bible were inspired in what they wrote--by the Holy Spirit. It means further that God got what he wanted out of them.

Teachings about the Bible being perfect, without error, etc. are based on more than that word. Also, very very few Christians would argue today that God "dictated" the words to the writers. Rather, God used these men to convey what he wanted to.

I do believe that most translations carry the inspired word of God. The promise of 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to our translations.

As an aside, most non-LDS Christians will be better opened to LDS teachings by being impressed by LDS acquaintances, and then by hearing Joseph Smith's story and finding it compelling. Raising strenuous doubts about the reliability of the Bible will simply raise defenses. Additionally, if one does begin to doubt the Bible (if they've been evangelical), there is a good chance they will become disillusioned, and abandon faith altogether...kinda like many LDS who come to doubt Smith's story, but simply leave faith in God, rather than converting to the religion of the Christian who led him to his doubts.

Edited October 29, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[Traveler]

I frankly see "God breathed" and "inspired" as the same. It means that the 40 authors of the books of the Bible were inspired in what they wrote--by the Holy Spirit. It means further that God got what he wanted out of them.

Teachings about the Bible being perfect, without error, etc. are based on more than that word. Also, very very few Christians would argue today that God "dictated" the words to the writers. Rather, God used these men to convey what he wanted to.

I do believe that most translations carry the inspired word of God. The promise of 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to our translations.

As an aside, most non-LDS Christians will be better opened to LDS teachings by being impressed by LDS acquaintances, and then by hearing Joseph Smith's story and finding it compelling. Raising strenuous doubts about the reliability of the Bible will simply raise defenses. Additionally, if one does begin to doubt the Bible (if they've been a Christian), there is a good chance they will become disillusioned, and abandon faith altogether...kinda like many LDS who come to doubt Smith's story, but simply leave faith in God, rather than converting to the religion of the Christian who led him to his doubts.

I have yet to meet any other Christian that does not doubt the Bible in the same way that LDS do - they just express it differently. In essence they doubt what other interpert. In my mind, very few are honest about why other interpert things differently.

The Traveler

[Soninme]

The Greek word translated to "inspiration" in the KJV does indeed translate directly into English as "God-breathed." However, the word meant something different in anceint times as the definition it has been given in our language. The word "theopneustos" in their language meant "inspired" according to every expert who knows anything about the Greek language at the time it was written, and is why it was translated inspired in the KJV and not God-breathed.

I guess I don't understand, "theo" = God, "pneustos" = to breathe.

What is the difference in saying "God-breathed" or "inspired of God"?

The word in their language literally meant that it was perfect and true at the time "God breathed" it, but it does not mean God controlled any subsequent copying or translating.

I seriously doubt that Paul, Peter, James, John, Luke etc. thought for even one minute that the scriptures they had in their time had copying or translating errors even though the Pentateuch was "inspired" 1500 years before them, copied numerous times,(they didn't have the original either) and even translated into Greek. (Septuagint)

The Septuagint was even quoted in the New Testament therefore you have a God-breathed translation. Why is it so hard to believe that God would preserve His Holy word?

He expects us to divide truth from error by studying it.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Psalm 1 Blessed is the man

Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,

Nor stands in the path of sinners,

Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;

But his delight is in the law of the LORD,

And in His law he meditates day and night.

Why would He require this of us if He had no intention of preserving His word?

It does not account for errors that have been made, whether accidental or intentional. It is very narrow and closed minded to believe it meant the same thing in their language as it does in ours.

So much for the Holy Bible:confused:

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Yes those "holy scriptures" that Jesus Himself quoted numerous times without reference to any copying or translation errors.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

How can anyone be "corrected, instructed in righteousness: perfected, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" if God does not or will not preserve his Holy word?

“Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).

Edited October 29, 2011 by Soninme

[Justice]

I understand, PC. I agree. If anyone is willing to really listen to WHY we do not believe the Bible is God-breathed (according to the definition used by most Christians teachers today) they would be forced to agree. The fact is, most are not objective.

It's important to point out the definition I'm using. I have viewed over 30, maybe 50, web sites where the word "God-breathed" was defined. Here are some very typical definitions I found on over 80% of the sites I visited (copying and pasting small quotes directly from those web sites):

"He used the Greek term theopneustos, which means 'God-breathed' or 'breathed out by God,' and this tells us that the very Scriptures themselves are the creation of God..." (A Word from the Word - Dr. Dan Hayden -- Dan Hayden)

"Now, we believe that the Bible is God's breath. We believe God wrote every word of it. God gave it. God revealed it. What is in here is what God said." (Grace to You -- Grace to You by John MacArthur)

Taking "God-breathed" literally from either the Latin or Greek causes misunderstandings in our language. These Christian teachers define the meaning they have given to "God-breathed" and project it back to what it "must have" meant in Latin and Greek.

You can't do that. It did not mean what they purport it to mean. "God-breathed" isn't even an English word, it's a construct that helps them portray their view of what the Bible is, NOT what the Bible claimed to be.

Inspired means it is revelation, that MEN spoke or wrote when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. It does not mean God Himself breathed (or spoke) the words of the Bible and therefore He will not allow them to be changed or altered. There is a stark difference in the implication of "God-breathed" over "inspiration." The term meant that they are truth because they are the words of God as spoken by the prophets. There was never a claim by the Bible that God Himself breathed them and they were perfectly recorded and preserved.

Inspiration carries with it the meaning that man participated, and that a man was inspired by God to do something. "God-breathed" carries with it the feeling that man had no part of what happened, it was God controlling it from beginning to end, hence the belief that the Bible is perfect.

So, it is not my intent to refute that the Bible is inspired, but that it is "God-breathed" as professed by some modern translators.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Justice

[Justice]

“Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).

If you are implying that I disagree with this verse and am speaking contrary to it, then either I have done a poor job in communicating my belief, or you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

There is a huge difference between truths as they exist in heaven (The Lord's word is eternal) and the limited and finite and mistranlated way man has recorded them in written form on paper.

If you believe any version of the Bible is "God-breathed" and the written words of men perfectly portrays the way God's spoken words exist in heaven, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Justice

[prisonchaplain]

What you will find in my fellowship's statement on the Bible is some wording that could be quoted to make it appear to support the dictation theory. However, taken as a whole, you will find a recognition that only the original manuscripts were without error, and that inspiration or God-breathed does not negate the author's personality or circumstances. Hopefully my more casual posts are largely in line with this:

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4175_inerrancy.pdf

[Justice]

some wording that could be quoted to make it appear to support

I love this.

So, do you believe the Bible is "inspired" as traslated in the KJV, or do you believe more in line with the definition of "God-breathed" as I have quoted others to say?

I didn't know you are of the Assembly of God faith.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Justice

[Soninme]

I just don't understand why our view of God's word would be contrary to His.

Yes, imperfect sinful men physically wrote the words but Who's words were they?

Deuteronomy 11:18

“Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes

Deuteronomy 12:28

Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever,

Deuteronomy 33:9

... For they have observed Your word And kept Your covenant.

Psalm 119:11

Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You

Psalm 119:42

So shall I have an answer for him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word.

Psalm 119:105

Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Psalm 119:148

My eyes are awake through the night watches, That I may meditate on Your word

Psalm 119:160

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

John 17:6

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word

John 17:17

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

2 Peter 1:19

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

Revelation 3:8

“I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Revelation 22:9

Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’

I'm not buying the idea that the God who spoke and the universe leaped into existence and commands our obedience to His every word "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name" has left us with scripture that we can't trust. Our view should be the same one Jesus had; Matthew 5:18

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Isaiah 59:21

“As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”

Psalm 138:2

I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

[Justice]

I just don't understand why our view of God's word would be contrary to His.

Are you suggesting my view is contrary to His? I claim the Bible is the word of God. All I'm saying it is not "perfect" as delivered from the mouth or pen of the prophets. There is variation in the text, not in God's word.

I'm not buying the idea that the God who spoke and the universe leaped into existence and commands our obedience to His every word "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name" has left us with scripture that we can't trust.

I don't recall saying it can't be trusted, just that it's not "perfect as delivered" to man. There have been some changes to it, not that it has been destroyed and God's word can no longer be discerned.

If you are suggesting the Bible is the perfect word of God, unchanged from the way it was spoken or written by the prophets, then you must say which version, because they are all textually different.

[Soninme]

I claim the Bible is the word of God. All I'm saying it is not "perfect" as delivered from the mouth or pen of the prophets. There is variation in the text, not in God's word.

Do you believe the Bible is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works? If yes then why bring it up, if not then the Bible is not the word of God.

I don't recall saying it can't be trusted,

Ummm yet

just that it's not "perfect as delivered" to man. There have been some changes to it, not that it has been destroyed and God's word can no longer be discerned.

That sure does open the door for doubt though doesn't it.

If you are suggesting the Bible is the perfect word of God, unchanged from the way it was spoken or written by the prophets, then you must say which version, because they are all textually different.

I am saying the Bible is authoritative to every subject to which it teaches because it is God's word. He commands that His words shall not depart from this time to forevermore!

Isaiah 59:21

“As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”

Why would He NOT preserve His word if He commands generations to keep His words for at least thousands of years? Please I am interested in your answer.

Could you give examples of versions that are "textually different" as to change the meaning?

[prisonchaplain]

I love this.

So, do you believe the Bible is "inspired" as traslated in the KJV, or do you believe more in line with the definition of "God-breathed" as I have quoted others to say?

I didn't know you are of the Assembly of God faith.

Inspired or "God-breathed?" YES. However, I sense that you are taking the latter as quite different. I do not. "Inspired" probably communicates more clearly though. Most people, including the nonreligious, have a sense of what inspiration is. "God-breathed" is an unusual phrase in our day. On the other hand, more liberal Christians have been known to say that the Bible was inspired like Shakespeare was...to them I'd say "God-breathed."

[Justice]

Could you give examples of versions that are "textually different" as to change the meaning?

That's an ironic question since we're discussing one of those differences in this thread.

Either the Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Spirit to write the word of God, and later developed copy errors and mistranslations, or it is literally written by and breathed by God Himself and has remained in it's perfect form throughout history, completely unchanged by men.

But, I'll bite and give you a mistranslation from the Hebrew text to the KJV that masked the true meaning of a prophecy. However, I don't know what good it will do.

Exodus 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Isaiah 8:1 Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man’s pen concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

This is a classic translation error. In Exodus Aaron used a "tool" called a "heret" in Hebrew to carve the surface of the golden calf he made. Isaiah used a "man's pen" to write on paper, even though it was also a "heret" or carving tool.

The overlying problem is that it was not discovered that ancient Judeah used writing boards during Isaiah's day until the 1950s. This caused several random mistranslations (like above) throughout the Old Testament, most notably in Ezekiel. It masked one specific prophecy so much that people can't recognize something in the Bible even though it is very specific in naming it.

Since most Christians (I've spoken to) see Ezekiel 37 as speaking allegorically about tribes, and not about writings, which is the main purpose of the verses, it would be quite remarakable if there were evidence linking it to actual writings.

People cannot see what was originally written because of the way it was mistranslated, even though, once understood, the truth can be gathered from the words. But, it requires external (to the Bible) help. And, you have to use different words than what are in the KJV to properly describe and understand it.

There are several articles and books dealing with these types of things. One article I found on the LDS web site dealing with this specific issue is here:

Ezekiel?s Sticks and the Gathering of Israel - Ensign Feb. 1987 - ensign

It will help you get more familiar with what I'm talking about.

But, this is the first time I've seen that particular article and have not read it. I got my information many years ago in a book I have on my shelf.

Did you know Ezekiel was talking about the "writings of the descendants of Ephraim" and not just about tribes?

Did you know that the Book of Mormon is the writings of the descendants of Ephraim?

[Soninme]

Either the Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Spirit to write the word of God, and later developed copy errors and mistranslations, or it is literally written by and breathed by God Himself and has remained in it's perfect form throughout history, completely unchanged by men.

I see you ignored my question.

Why would He NOT preserve His word if He commands generations to keep His words for at least thousands of years? Please I am interested in your answer.

But, I'll bite and give you a mistranslation from the Hebrew text to the KJV that masked the true meaning of a prophecy. However, I don't know what good it will do.

If it is something you can honestly document then I will listen, if it is not then it's just a personal belief.

Isaiah 8:1 Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man’s pen concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

This is a classic translation error. In Exodus Aaron used a "tool" called a "heret" in Hebrew to carve the surface of the golden calf he made. Isaiah used a "man's pen" to write on paper, even though it was also a "heret" or carving tool.

The overlying problem is that it was not discovered that ancient Judeah used writing boards during Isaiah's day until the 1950s. This caused several random mistranslations (like above) throughout the Old Testament,

Forgive me please,.... because the "heret" Isaiah used to write with was rendered "a man's pen" instead of "carving tool" "This caused several random mistranslations (like above) throughout the Old Testament"?! This is proof the Bible has errors

most notably in Ezekiel. It masked one specific prophecy so much that people can't recognize something in the Bible even though it is very specific in naming it.

But Justice, what if your interpretation of that prophecy is wrong?

People cannot see what was originally written because of the way it was mistranslated, even though, once understood, the truth can be gathered from the words. But, it requires external (to the Bible) help. And, you have to use different words than what are in the KJV to properly describe and understand it.

Or is it honestly possible that it doesn't mean what you claim and it is you that is changing it to better reflect your view?

Did you know Ezekiel was talking about the "writings of the descendants of Ephraim" and not just about tribes?

Did you know that the Book of Mormon is the writings of the descendants of Ephraim?

Ezekiel 37:22 clearly explains the prophecy of the two sticks;

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

[Justice]

Why would He NOT preserve His word if He commands generations to keep His words for at least thousands of years?

"His word" is unchanging. His word has been preserved because He speaks to men of all ages, and He speaks the same words. Those men can then write it, or fix it if it has been written down or copied wrong. We have several prime examples of this in the Book of Mormon.

Compare: Malachi 4 

To: 3 Nephi 24 

And look at this specific example of a time where Christ wanted certain things written in their scriptures, and questions why they weren't.

3 Nephi 23:

6 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he said unto them again, after he had expounded all the scriptures unto them which they had received, he said unto them: Behold, other scriptures I would that ye should write, that ye have not.

7 And it came to pass that he said unto Nephi: Bring forth the record which ye have kept.

8 And when Nephi had brought forth the records, and laid them before him, he cast his eyes upon them and said:

9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

10 And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.

11 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did rise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?

12 And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written.

13 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded.

[Justice]

What I'm answering is not if the "word of God" has been preserved, but why didn't God preserve the written form of His word. We need to come together on these terms or this will be a fruitless discussion. The Bible is called the word of God becuase it contains the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ, and prophets spoke and wrote, when inspired by the Spirit, the things of God, or the things God would have men know. I have never, and will never, dispute this.

Our dispute is about what exactly "His word" means. You seem to claim whether spoken by God, or written and translated by men over 1,500 years by dozens of different people into dozens of different laguages, it is the same. It is exactly the same! There is proof that this just isn't the case.

The very proof that God did not micromanage the written form of His word can be readily seen, to any logical mind, in all the various translations of His word that we have. This is what I'm speaking about, and it cannot be disputed.

What you are saying is that none of these errors amount to any real change in His word. By saying that you admit textual change. What we can debate is whether or not any of the changes amounted to anything, not whether or not any changes actually happened. The way I have shown many Protestant preachers teach that the Bible is "God-breathed" just cannot be so. There have been changes, and there is proof. God did not write the Bible Himself. He spoke to men and they wrote it, and it was subsequently copied and translated such that no two texts of manuscript match exactly today.

I would much rather have a discussion about the tampering, and if it caused any meaningful changes. I wish you would admit that there are hundreds of different translations of the Bible in the world today and that no two are exactly the same. That would make our discussion much easier, and more focused on whether those changes amounted to anything.

But Justice, what if your interpretation of that prophecy is wrong?

My "interpretation" that heret was mistranslated into man's pen was shown by evidence and findings, not interpretation. That they used writing boards, not scrolls, or worse, "sticks," was shown by evidence and findings, not interpretation. That Ezekiel actually held something (a writing board) in his hand "before their eyes" is part of the text. The fact that the people asked what he meant by showing them the "books" he made is in the text. They just didn't know what he held until the 1950s.

I talked to one minister who said what Ezekiel actually held were scepters symbolic of the tribes, and not writings at all. With the way the text is currently in the Bible you can arrive at that interpretation. But, if it were "more accurately translated" you could not. If you don't get that Ezekiel held writings, you miss the primary point of his prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:22 clearly explains the prophecy of the two sticks

Who are the two nations? Judah and Ephraim. Is the prophecy only speaking allegorically about tribes, or does it speak about the writings of those tribes? Clearly, what he held up was a symbolic writing board representing the writings of both nations, joined together. When the writings of the two nations are joined together, then the people would be joined together. With modern discoveries of the items used in the prophecy, this is the best interpretation because it fits all aspects of the prophecy.

If you understand that "stick" was not a "stick" or a scepter, but a writing board, it singles in on what Ezekiel was representing symbolically, the writings of those people. If that is not understood, the meaning is missed.

What does it mean to you when it speaks of the "stick of Joseph, which was in the hand of Ephraim?" Do we have it? Do you think the "stick of Judah" is symbolically speaking of the Bible?

Soninme, what if the new findings show how it was mistranslated and misinterpreted? What if it is speaking about the joining of the writings of the tribe of Judah with the writings of the tribe of Joseph through Ephraim? What if it's talking about the Bible and Book of Mormon, since, with the new evidence, they fit the descriptions perfectly?

[Snow]

I am saying the Bible is authoritative to every subject to which it teaches because it is God's word. He commands that His words shall not depart from this time to forevermore!

Isaiah 59:21

“As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.”

Why would He NOT preserve His word if He commands generations to keep His words for at least thousands of years? Please I am interested in your answer.

Could you give examples of versions that are "textually different" as to change the meaning?

That's an incredibly simplistic view - so simplistic as to render it useless.

That verse in Isaiah was written by - who knows, but likely not Isaiah. Then you would take it and have it apply to, say Timothy, also written by who knows (not Paul).

Do you have any evidence that 1. God agrees with the original, anonymous author and 2. That He thinks that it applies to, say, Timothy?

[Snow]

Could you give examples of versions that are "textually different" as to change the meaning?

How about the examples already listed?

The long ending of Mark and the Johannine Comma?

[Soninme]

Our dispute is about what exactly "His word" means. You seem to claim whether spoken by God, or written and translated by men over 1,500 years by dozens of different people into dozens of different laguages, it is the same. It is exactly the same! There is proof that this just isn't the case.

Justice

For sure I am no scholar but something to consider; I don't know how many times the Pentateuch was copied since the original was lost, I suspect quite a few. I do know, besides the copying in Hebrew, it was translated into at least Aramaic and Greek from those copies and was quoted by Jesus Christ as authentic. He never mentioned copy errors or faulty translations. Also the Septuagint (Geek translation of the OT) was quoted by NT writers inspired by the Holy Spirit, therefore it certainly is possible for there to be an inspired correct copy not written in Hebrew. That being said, of course there can be bad translations. I don't at all believe the NWT used by the Jehovah's Witnesses is a good translation for various reasons that need not be discussed here, and very possibly others.

We do however have an abundant number scholarly translations from reliable manuscripts that we can be very confident in.

The very proof that God did not micromanage the written form of His word can be readily seen, to any logical mind, in all the various translations of His word that we have. This is what I'm speaking about, and it cannot be disputed.

The implication that the BIble isn't enough because all the translations don't use the exact same words is nonsence. If you don't like or believe the KJV or NASB or NIV etc. then check what it says in the original languages and you translate it. A god who doesn't preserve its word yet expects us to obey it is not in charge.

I wish you would admit that there are hundreds of different translations of the Bible in the world today and that no two are exactly the same. That would make our discussion much easier, and more focused on whether those changes amounted to anything.

Sure, I admit that. I also admit that the Bible we have today is the holy word of God.

That verse in Isaiah was written by - who knows, but likely not Isaiah. Then you would take it and have it apply to, say Timothy, also written by who knows (not Paul).

Do you have any evidence that 1. God agrees with the original, anonymous author and 2. That He thinks that it applies to, say, Timothy?

Snow

Jesus disagrees with you;

Jesus quoted from Isaiah 29:13: “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; (Mark 7:6-7).

Jesus also referenced Isaiah 42:1-4 in Matthew 12:17: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah.”

Isaiah is also referenced in Matthew 8:16-17 by quoting Isaiah 53:4: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: ...(Matthew 8:17).

Also several other New Testament verses refer to the prophet Isaiah as been the sole author: Matthew 3:3 and Luke 3:4 (Isaiah 40:3); Romans 10:16, 20 (Isaiah 53:1; 65:1); John 12:38-41 (Isaiah 53:1; 6:10). All those believed only Isaiah wrote Isaiah.

[Traveler]

...

I'm not buying the idea that the God who spoke and the universe leaped into existence and commands our obedience to His every word "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name" has left us with scripture that we can't trust. Our view should be the same one Jesus had; Matthew 5:18

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

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I submit that you cannot trust scripture at all when comparing scripture with G-d. I submit that we should worship (trust) G-d and him only.

The Traveler

[Maygraceabound]

I have yet to meet any other Christian that does not doubt the Bible in the same way that LDS do - they just express it differently. In essence they doubt what other interpert. In my mind, very few are honest about why other interpert things differently.

The Traveler

Well now you have. I do not doubt the bible at all like the LDS ( Your own words). I find no gospel differences between the different versions either. I use the NAS (Alexandrian) and also the KJV ( Byzantine ). I also like the NLT. The Christians that I surround myself with also would say the same thing. To us, the bible contains the Incorruptible word of God. It is the foundation for our belief. When you start to doubt the word of god you open yourself to deception from Satan. I respect your belief and understand your logic for doubting God's word, I just believe you are deceived. When push comes to shove I will always side with God and His word. God Bless

[annewandering]

Well now you have. I do not doubt the bible at all like the LDS ( Your own words). I find no gospel differences between the different versions either. I use the NAS (Alexandrian) and also the KJV ( Byzantine ). I also like the NLT. The Christians that I surround myself with also would say the same thing. To us, the bible contains the Incorruptible word of God. It is the foundation for our belief. When you start to doubt the word of god you open yourself to deception from Satan. I respect your belief and understand your logic for doubting God's word, I just believe you are deceived. When push comes to shove I will always side with God and His word. God Bless

Well hmm. We dont doubt Gods word at all. :)

[mnn727]

I'm not buying the idea that the God who spoke and the universe leaped into existence .

Thats part of your problem right there. Ex Nihlo creation is not a Biblical idea.

[Maygraceabound]

Well hmm. We dont doubt Gods word at all. :)

OK, I believe you. I find God's word in the bible. This is comforting to me to know that deception and feelings will not lead me down the wrong path. God's word is strength for me and I cling to it...I cling to Jesus as my lord my God. If you doubt the bible, what is your source for God's word? How do you know it is true? How do you pick and choose what to believe and what to discard? This is very dangerous ground. For instance if I believe I receive a word from God and it does not agree with His word, then guess what, it is not from God. His word is the foundation, the rock and when you start to doubt this foundation, evil will filter in. Thanks for you reply.

[Justice]

The problem is not God's word, but interpretation of God's word.

EVERYONE believes when they read the Bible they are being led by the Spirit. It's funny though, the typical measuring stick of if one is being taught by the spirit when reading is if they agree with what the individual believes. Proof of this is found in all the different Christians who believe differently, yet get hteir truth from the same book, the Bible.

I have the written words of prophets as you do. I also have the spoken words of living prophets called of God today. Yes, interpreting scripture for yourself is dangerous, but following the counsel and admonition of a living prophet is not.