Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[kimzirker]

Does anyone know anything about dealing with a spouse that has Narcissistic Personality Disorder? We are going through counseling (both together and separately) and the other day the counselor tells me that my husband has this disorder. I was shocked. After reading up on it all I could, I'm inclined to agree with her, but it's still a shock. Has anyone ever encountered this? Most things I read were, frankly, hopeless as far as saving the relationship. Pretty much everything I read said RUN!!!! I am just trying to be realistic. We have five kids. He cheated on me with multiple girls online. They were very explicit relationships. This is why we started going to therapy. I'm really at a loss of words on her diagnosis. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

[annewandering]

What I am reading on line is daunting. It seems hard to see how that disorder can be so fragile but it apparently is. Is your husband willing to seek treatment?

[kimzirker]

Well. That the clincher. He doesn't know he has it yet. He is seeking therapy right now to deal with his anger and infidelity problems. She said it was amazing that he even saw those were issues. (Although he really only views the anger as a problem--but that's another story) She told me that she wanted to keep him in therapy working on those things as long as possible before she told him so that they could have a trust built up enough that he'd believe her and then treat that. I'm not supposed to say anything about it to him at all. For now. She is very good at what she does and my husband has actually responded very favorably to her help so far. Which is a complete surprise.

[annewandering]

It sounds like you are going to be doing some dancing with it. What I read did say it was treatable so that is encouraging.

[MorningStar]

Ugh. I read about that when it seemed my brother-in-law had it. They don't seem to be very receptive to being diagnosed with that. I hope what she's doing will work. Prayers for you.

[annewandering]

I doubt anyone wants to be diagnosed with it. Considering how we commonly use the word narcissistic it isnt very flattering. What I read also implied they are very fragile in their self image not over confident like you would think.

[me1600]

I dated a guy who had it, and also Borderline. Sometimes they overlap.

Here is what I know:

Narcissists can't see your side of things at all they just can't you can't reason with them.

My old boyfriend called me extremely unfair and cruel because I wanted to break up.

He would plan many events then tell me what they were, he did not think of asking prior to that.

Narcissistic personality disorder is nearly impossible to treat.

It is more about you as a relative dealing or not dealing with it.

A GREAT Book is Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists look it up on Amazon. It is for those who are married, or who have parents or close friends who are Narcissists. Excellent reading.

But yeah, running is the best way out. This is why Wizard book is good. It's not like you are going to blow off your mom or dad usually. So it helps you learn to cope with who they are.

two kinds by the way: suupper charming could sell you a glass of water, those are alot more fun than the other who basically just talk about themselves are are BORING and ANNOYING.

They talk alot about the way a Narcissist parents as well. Interesting stuff. Good luck.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I think simply supporting him in therapy is the best way to help him get out of it...as far as you go. Well, I think the therapist might give advice about how spouses can assist with the therapy at home.

Do you find him critical of you? Does he make you feel inferior? How are you coping with it?

I play in a band with someone that has that disorder. It was so awful I almost decided not to join the group if he was in it. He carries on about his good looking girlfriend, his BMW, his sexy job, you name it...In the band, when I play keyboards, he feels he always has to play the part I'm playing, but play it better. I find the behavior annoying....the drummer in the band raised the issue once, and indicated that he writes it off as "this is what Mr. Keyboardplayer needs to do to feel good about himself"...and then I pity the guy.

To be married to someone like that would be difficult, I"m sure.

[slamjet]

First off, is there a sex addiction here? Because if there is, one of the traits is narcissism. If the addiction is dealt with, then the narcissism works itself out. But what you are describing is a toss up as to what it is.

Keep your eyes and ears open, make sure you are tested for STD's, pray about it and do what is best for you and the children, not for him. They are your #1 responcibility because he has already shown himself irresponsible.

[ChooseTheSun]

Be careful... Why would a therapist tell you something like that about your husband? If she is his individual therapist and feels he has NPD, then it is ethically questionable that she would disclose that finding to you and not him. It would be like your doctor telling your husband you have a particular diagnosis and not telling you. He's entitled to confidentiality, and his therapist should know better.

If she concludes he is NPD based upon data collected in the couples counseling session, it can erode trust if your husband perceives that the therapist is discussing him in such detail without him present.

If she's telling you she wants to keep him in therapy working on those things as long as possible before she tells him he has NPD so that they could have a trust built up enough that he'd believe her and then treat that, it sound manipulating and like she is taking sides.

Your situation sounds horrible, and I'm sure he's as difficult as you describe. He may indeed have a personality disorder. But NPD is an incredibility complex and emotionally loaded psychiatric diagnosis. My suggestion is to be careful in accepting diagnostic conclusions from a therapist who gives you secret clinical conclusions on another person, especially when there is an assumption of confidentiality.

Edited November 2, 2011 by ChooseTheSun

[JudoMinja]

I don't know about dealing with a spouse with narcissism, but my older brother has been diagnosed as narcissistic, and it has caused major problems for our entire family. As his sister, I don't interact with him on a daily basis or expect any kind of deepness to our relationship as would be expected from a spouse, so I've learned to deal with it fairly well. My mother, on the other hand, is always bailing him out of problems he creates for himself due to his narcissistic behavior, and it is very trying and tiring for her.

His life is in shambles of his own making, and it is very very difficult for him to learn from any of his mistakes. He makes the same mistakes over and over again, digging himself a deeper and deeper pit that eventually, our mother won't be able to dig him out of. He was kicked out of basic training for the army because of this, ended up getting excommunicated from the church, dropped out of college, and is divorced (serious problems on both ends, not just him).

While this all probably sounds very depressing, I can tell you that my brother has some very good qualities despite his narcissism, and I think if he could find a relationship with a very patient and understanding woman they could find a way to make it work. He tries very hard to be a good father and provide for his boys needs, and he sincerely does care about their well-being. He is a very hard worker and dedicated to doing his very best when he's "on the clock". He may not be the best at organization, planning ahead, or thinking of the needs/restraints others may have- but he is dedicated to cleanliness, good cooking and health, striving to be a good parent, working hard, and having fun with his family and friends.

His sense of self-worth is very fragile, and I think this is actually what causes him to focus so much on himself. When my mother has withheld monetary help, he equated it to withholding love. All his dates and his ex-wife have been very manipulative people that fed his feeling of self-worth until they got what they wanted - further complicating his self-image. He does what helps him feel good about himself without making connections that it may inconvenience others or that he needs to communicate with others what is going on in his head. He'll change plans at the last minute without thinking to tell those who rearranged their schedules until it is too late -because he is basically incapable of thinking through anyones time-commitments but his own.

There are SOO many examples I could think of that illustrate narcissism and the problems it can cause. My brother is still working on finding balance and real happiness in his life, so I don't know what comfort my experience can offer you... I can, however, attempt to help you understand your husband better by sharing my experiences, and share with you how I have been able to "cope" with his behavior.

What has helped me stay on the edge of my brother's whirlpool has been the setting of boundaries. I absolutely refuse to let him take advantage of me, so I won't put myself out there if doing so could end up being detrimental to my own needs. For example- at one point my brother really wanted me to share an apartment with him. We would have split the rent, split the household duties, and split the childcare duties, which theoretically would have made everything easier for both of us. I know, however, that this would only cause me problems as my brother would irresponsibly leave his kids with me when I would need to go to work, or go get himself in debt and leave the whole rent paycheck on my shoulders, or... well, you get the idea. I was not about to do that. However, I will help with babysitting when he lets me know ahead of time and I'm available. And I will do family outings with him and the kids. So, I've set my limits. He knows I'll help when I'm able, but my schedule and my son come before him.

I don't know if this would work as well for you, considering this is your spouse and not someone you can really distance yourself from... but the idea of boundaries and limitations is a solid one. If you can find ways to set them and enforce them, it should help keep your husband's behavior from being destructive to you and your family.

[kimzirker]

Thank you all for your great encouragement and advice. Just as a side note, the therapist did not disclose anything to me about their private sessions except for the diagnosis and the reason she did that was for safety concerns. That's really all I'll say about that on here. There's a whole batch of crazy behind those reasons. I would have never thought he was a narcissist but now that I do all of a sudden everything makes sense. For now I'm just happy that he's willing to go to therapy and that she knows how to help him. Thank you for asking how I'm doing. Truth is, I don't really know. My first thoughts were--SAVE THE MARRIAGE, SAVE THE MARRIAGE! But now I'm really feeling--SAVE THE KIDS, SAVE YOURSELF! Haha. I've done a lot of praying and I have decided to give it a few months and see how therapy goes. I appreciate the comment on setting boundaries. This is something the therapist told me was the most important thing to do. I made a list of boundaries and had a long talk with him about those. He didn't really take very kindly to it at first, but after he calmed down I noticed that he was actually respecting those boundaries I set. I've had to restate them, but at least I'm feeling that safety is no longer a concern at this time. He's been very difficult to live with. Not that we haven't had great times, because we certainly have. But our not great times have been very not great. And always my fault (in his mind). And for the last few years the moments between the episodes has almost become obsolete. Therapist said he'd always be a narcissist, but the goal is that he will learn to recognize the thought process and modify the behavior. So I guess I'm in for now.

[Guest]

My sister-in-law most definitely has it, and she lived with us for one summer. It was hell, that was over 3 years ago, and in a way I'm still recovering from how messed up she had my head. I can't imagine being married to that kind of sickness. I'm glad you're in therapy for yourself. I know there are some support groups online. One I know about is Children of Narcissistic mothers. Even though that doesn't apply to you, I find reading their resources online pretty healing.

[applepansy]

Does anyone know anything about dealing with a spouse that has Narcissistic Personality Disorder? We are going through counseling (both together and separately) and the other day the counselor tells me that my husband has this disorder. I was shocked. After reading up on it all I could, I'm inclined to agree with her, but it's still a shock. Has anyone ever encountered this? Most things I read were, frankly, hopeless as far as saving the relationship. Pretty much everything I read said RUN!!!! I am just trying to be realistic. We have five kids. He cheated on me with multiple girls online. They were very explicit relationships. This is why we started going to therapy. I'm really at a loss of words on her diagnosis. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

My sister's first husband is diagnosed NPD. After several counselors and a lot of abuse. She got a restraining order and had him removed from the home.

The biggest problem with NPD is "they are NEVER wrong." If they think it then they are right and even doctors and psychiatrists are wrong to even suggest such a thing as NPD.

What made my sister finally leave the marriage was her boys were starting to act like their father. That was the breaking point for her. She didn't want her boys to talk to her the same disrespectful way their father did. And she didn't want them to treat other women the way their father treats women. She wanted them to understand there are always consequences for our behaviors. (they have been divorced for several years now yet just last spring he tried to run her off the road and her oldest son was in the car with her.)

In my opinion NPD is the Selfishness elevated to an ART. I also believe that somehow and somewhere the person allowed Satan to start whispering in his/her ear that he/she is always right. In the case of my sister's ex we found out from his neighbors while he was growing up, that it was his mother who opened the door to Satan and taught him that no matter what he did he was right. One incident my sister learned about was: He broke the neighbors window and his mother told him in front of the neighbor that he must have had a good reason to break the window. There was no punishment. If you raise a child to believe there is never a reason to repent then they will learn this ultimate form of selfishness. Its very very very hard to undo. Afterall, they are always right and everyone else is always wrong.

If your husband is unwilling to take responsibility for his actions, you will continue to have a really hard time. Only you can decide who much you are going to take. Only you can decide when its time to protect your children.

I wish you all the best.

EDIT: In response to the suggestion that the counselor was wrong to tell you. I don't agree. You have to protect yourself and your children. Not telling your husband the diagnosis is correct.. If he knows then it will only push him further into the disorder. Therapists who deal with NPD patients know what they are doing by not telling the patient. She only told you enough so that you and your children could be safe.....as she should have.

Edited November 2, 2011 by applepansy

[Guest]

In my sister-in-law's case, it was amplified to the point that she was convinced that she had super discernment powers, so the "Spirit" was always telling her she was right about things, even when all evidence said otherwise. She'd even come back from the temple and tell me about some revelation she had about something, usually how wrong I was (like when I wouldn't sit quietly while her son bullied my daughter), and I was pretty weak at the time and didn't know how to argue with that. For me, I've had to cut her out of my life. I don't know how that would work if you're wanting to save the marriage. But other than that, I did a lot of personal work and growth, learned about healthy boundaries and taking care of myself. One part of me wishes I could go back to that and handle her differently with what I know now, but the larger part shrinks at the thought. You couldn't pay me to deal with her twisted games again.

[Jennarator]

I am not telling you what to do, you need to pray and ask. But if it were me, I would take the kids and go. You need to do what is best for them. It might not be best for them to be around this type of situation. Just too many things going on.

My ex did not have that, (Tho he might have from what I just read.) But he did have a lot of other things going on, other diagnosis and such, and it became too much as he didn't see that he was doing anything wrong. I had to kick him out. He was hurting the whole family and we could not progress.

[kimzirker]

Thank you again. It's been a very rough struggle, but somehow having a name to it has really helped me. It's true that he's always right even when he's totally wrong, but he'll have the scriptural references to back it up! Haha. Luckily I haven't allowed his mind games to totally mess me up into thinking I was the crazy one. Maybe that's why I'm thinking we might actually be able to do this. The real key is for him to continue with therapy. If that stops, then the marriage is over. I've set the needed boundaries. But I'm still kinda freaking out. Not really sure how much of a 'show' he's putting on for me. The therapist has told me that he's been willing to talk about very personal, hard things during their sessions, so she believes that if he stays in therapy then she will be able to help him. But that doesn't mean that I have to stick around for that. It's just sort of a waiting game for me right now.

Some of you may be wondering what caused this to happen. It's purely speculation because the therapist is still working with my husband to find the source. But I have a pretty good idea. When my husband was a teenager (14 years old), he was a state champion gymnast and diver. That summer he got an extremely rare virus. It's the same virus that causes the common cold. Except that this virus attacked his spinal cord and left him paralyzed overnight. After a year of medication and physical therapy, he did learn to walk again--but with only about 70% feeling and strength in each leg. That is actually a miracle because most people die or are permanently in wheelchairs. So here's where it started. Mom and dad did EVERYTHING for their baby boy. They made everything ok. Consequences vanished. And here's the sad part. I can't imagine almost losing my child like that, so I can't blame them for cleaning up all his messes. When we got married, I didn't even notice anything at first. It wasn't really until children started coming to our family and my attention was elsewhere that I started seeing him change. And it's been a very dark and scary change. Anyway, that's where I am right now and I'm hoping that with some therapy, MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE, he might be able to be normal again. Therapist told me not to hope for that. But I can't help it. :)

[annewandering]

Thank you for this thread. My husband and I were reading this last night and realized that one of our kids has this. My oldest daughter disagrees but I think she is wrong. When he was young there were some of the signs but since he has grown up it has gotten really bad. Especially after he got back from Iraq. He has disabling PTSD as well.

I dont know what caused it but nearly everything you guys have said describes him so well. We have been at a total loss to know what was wrong and what to do. He sees a therapist which is good. When he goes.

Putting name to it has just cleared the clouds from my mind. So much of the anger is just gone now.

I do not know how we will deal with it now but at least we have a starting place.

[RescueMom]

The Oz book is a good book.

As a person who was in a relationship with a person diagnosed with NPD....my gut tells me to tell you to run...run far...run fast and don't look back. But I don't know all the ins and outs of your relationship.

I do know that NPD is very seldom cured, because the narcissist doesn't think anything is wrong. That most narcissists have a real self and a false self, the false self is wonderful to be around, charming and fun, and seems too good to be true (because they are) but once the mask falls off, it's off...and oh boy it's not pretty.

The other thing I have learned is they view other humans the way we normal people view objects..i.e. computer ect. replaceable and only there for their use and once you don't fit that prescribed mold then the narcissist has a hard time not replacing you.

And I disagree with the post about healing the sexual addiction and the narcissist will be healed, sex to them is not what is is to us, it's a power thing and the other person is just a tool, just like all tools they use for all their other life issues. If it isn't sex, they will have some other obsession to make themselves feel superior to everyone, be it they are the best baseball coach, or best lover. It doesn't matter so long as the world (in their mind) thinks they are the best.

If you decide to stay with him, stay in therapy for yourself (you're going to need it). If you decide to leave be prepared to leave the state you live in and cut off all contact with him (even if you have kids). He will manipulate the kids, other family members and other friends against you, be prepared for that. I have not known any of them who haven't been master manipulators in one form or another and they can turn almost anyone against their object of hate. Also, fair warning, if you leave and keep in contact with him he will try to manipulate you back into the relationship...on tactic they like to use is they will say they are going to kill themselves if you don't come back (emotional blackmail). 9 times out of 10 they won't, it's a ploy.

Gosh I hope this isn't too over the top, but it took me years to get passed my relationship with Mr. NPD and that includes years of therapy.

[RescueMom]

Oh and one more thing...my NPD boy manipulated the therapist several times into thinking he was changing (which lasted a few months). That's how good he was. If your husband really changes it will be evident in about 6 months, they can't keep the mask on that long.

[kimzirker]

RescueMom--it's almost as if you know me personally. Haha. Your posts are dead on.

I'm not too worried about my husband turning people I love against me. Especially the kids. He's gotten so out of control the last few years that people have really started noticing. Particularly the kids. We all know that there is 'something wrong with dad'. I haven't ever discussed any details with them, but the kids see enough and go through enough. It would not be a problem. His behavior has been really crazy and he's not really been able to keep it as hidden from extended family as he previously has. One person in particular--his mom. She lives with us and has for 6 years. She's had a front row seat. So I'm sure he will be able to convince coworkers and maybe other people that don't know me or distant relatives that I'm a crazy loon. However, anyone that knows me will know the truth and that's all I really care about anyway.

Like I said, I'm going to give it a few months. He can pretend for awhile and he's very good at doing it. However, like you said, the real person always comes out. So true about the real self and false self. I never really thought of that before, but you nailed that right on the head. NPD can't be cured. You are right about the sexual addiction. That really isn't the problem. Everything is the problem. He has to be the best dressed, drive the nicest car, have the coolest toys, newest everything. Recently he had plastic surgery on his nose. It's a neverending cycle of me, me, me, me, me. I don't think I could cut off ties with him completely. We do have 5 kids and he will have some rights there. But I'm sure the court would order some sort of supervised visitation, which means I doubt he will even bother. Plus if it ever came to leaving, I'm sure I'd have to get a restraining order. Guaranteed. It really all just centers around getting therapy. As long as he's going, then I'm willing to stick it out (and as long as he respects the boundaries I set).

I did start preparing an exit plan though. I have a feeling that it will come to that. Mostly because I doubt he's really capable of change. But I am so very hopeful. I did not believe the therapist when she told me his diagnosis. I listed reasons why he could not have that. I just thought he might be bipolar. (and chances are he might actually be that too) So she told me to read up about it. I didn't leave the computer for three days. (not really. I am a full time student and I have 5 kids. haha) It was so shocking. It was as if these people were living my life here in my home. So I'm going to the temple. I'm praying and fasting as often as possible. And for now, I'm comfortable with the choices I've made to see how therapy goes. But I also feel confirmed that if any boundaries are crossed, then I need to go. And that makes me sad. And happy. And sad. And scared.

Thanks again for all your help everyone. So good to just vent outloud (online to strangers...) and get fresh perspectives. I know that these are choices that I need to make myself, but it's nice to be able to talk them out on here anonymously.

[sister_in_faith]

Thank you for this thread. My husband and I were reading this last night and realized that one of our kids has this. My oldest daughter disagrees but I think she is wrong. When he was young there were some of the signs but since he has grown up it has gotten really bad. Especially after he got back from Iraq. He has disabling PTSD as well.

I dont know what caused it but nearly everything you guys have said describes him so well. We have been at a total loss to know what was wrong and what to do. He sees a therapist which is good. When he goes.

Putting name to it has just cleared the clouds from my mind. So much of the anger is just gone now.

I do not know how we will deal with it now but at least we have a starting place.

After reading some more, and thinking about this I'm starting to think this diagnosis fits my mom too. She also has some OCD issues.

These are the insights I was hoping to gain from joining lds.net... together we can support and encourage each other, and make this life/trial just a little more bareable.

Thank you!

[kimzirker]

Just a note to everyone. We are all narcissists. We all at one time or another make stuff all about ME! But the difference with a person with this disorder is that they don't recognize it. Ever. I can see and acknowledge when I'm being selfish. My husband is completely oblivious. All the time. Not just on occasion. One of the biggest parts for me is the lack of empathy. He can never ever see anything from anyone else's point of view. Other people's feelings are really just a side note and don't play any part in any consideration. He's a joy to be around as long as everything is perfect and everyone stays on the down-low. Here's a really crazy story. He was really excited about reconnecting with a great friend from college. I knew this friend really well. His sister was my best friend in high school. Anyway. He told me for several days how excited he was to reconnect and catch up and thought that maybe next time we were in Utah we could swing by and visit..... This friend called my husband and told him that last month his 2 year old daughter asperated on a tiny piece of apple and died. He told my husband how great it was to be able to talk with such a good friend about this tragedy. My husband made up an excuse to hang up the phone as soon as possible. When I asked him what was wrong, he said that he didn't have time to deal with other people's problems. And he never called back and avoided all contact with that friend ever since. It was such a surprise to me. I cried for weeks over their loss. (still do sometimes) Called him and his family and offered condolences. But my husband never batted an eye. It's so strange--this happened a year ago and I thought that was the weirdest thing ever. But now I know why he didn't want to have that relationship. Recent loss of a daughter is worth more attention than a new car. So sad. Anyway--what I'm trying to say is that everyone has symptoms of these at some time--so you'll see it everywhere. :)

[annewandering]

Yes we do all do that to an extent. Fortunately you dont know my son. Or Sisters mom. :) Sorry Sister but I suspect you will agree.

I am sorry Sister that you have had to deal with your mom for so long. Do you feel as I do that knowing this makes it all make sense? I feel like God has stepped in to help me see what the problem is and is giving us a way to deal. Today has been great. He is no different that usual, except maybe more depressed today than usual, but I am not reacting the same as usual with annoyance or anger. No doubt he will still be able to push our buttons but at least we have more understanding of why he does. It really is a calming feeling.

[kimzirker]

It really is calming, isn't it? My husband is the same as ever, but I see him differently. I react to him differently. And I know he is getting help from someone who knows it about him. I am beyond happy that this thread has been helpful to someone other than just me. Yay! Knowledge is power. :)