The perfectness of God

[Dove]

As far as I understand the "perfectness" of God; the Saviour, Jesus lead a sinless life here in mortality. He has always existed, as have we all....

Vort, I really appreciate your perspective. I always want to be careful to not underestimate God nor all HIs glorious and incomprehensible characteristics....

As Vort alluded, God is infinite, and we are finite. I don't believe we can fully understand God and His mysteries in our finite state, without being perfected ourselves.

There are so many beautiful descriptions of God in the scriptures. In attempting to understand and apply the atonement to my life, I have come to believe some important concepts. For example; He is the Creator, I am the created. He knows all things, I know nothing comparatively. Any truth I do know comes through His power by the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. This being said, the only "true" happiness I can experience will come through believing Him and having faith in His words; i.e., obediently following His commands...Commands I can follow through diligent prayer, scripture study, and following the revelations given by the Holy Spirit.

I want to stress that I'm learning to rely only "upon His arm," and not on "the arm of flesh," i.e., anybody else, self included.

[Traveler]

I believe the most important thing missing from this discussion is the simple fact that mankind is expected to be perfect in the same manner that G-d is perfect. (See Matt 5:48)

Those that do not understand this point concerning perfection do so because their doctrine is imperfect - flawed, wrong, false, misleading or what-have-you. The point is that every element that can be ascribed to G-d as an element of his perfectness - is part of our perfectness in him.

Any doctrine that does not allow or expect that man's perfectness is to match that of G-d's -- Well that doctrine is not perfect nor divine nor from G-d.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

It's probably way too late for this reply but here goes:

Justice, you are misunderstanding me because you do not use the word "eternal" properly. When you say "an eternity" you mean a really long time. And when you say "throughout all eternity" you mean a really long time that never ends. And that is natural, because we usually use the word that way. But eternal means timeless, without beginning or end. So no, there was no "period" before time. There is a difference between time and eternity and it does matter.

We both believe that timeless/eternal things exist. I believe it is God himself. LDS (as far as I understand it) believe matter/intelligences are eternal.

I did not mean to say that you are ordering God around, but that your argument does not actually follow. Just because God can create infinite universes, does not mean that he must or that he would want to, or that doing so would actually be the best way to show his glory.

I am not sure I understand your concepts of time or of eternity. Does the set that includes time - intersect the set you define as eternity? What I am asking is if something exist in time can it also exist in eternity and vice versa?

If for example G-d exists in eternity; does that mean that there is no time in which G-d has not existed. This then leads into the question - can man exist in eternity with G-d or not - according to your definitions of eternal?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

As far as I understand the "perfectness" of God; the Saviour, Jesus lead a sinless life here in mortality. He has always existed, as have we all....

Vort, I really appreciate your perspective. I always want to be careful to not underestimate God nor all HIs glorious and incomprehensible characteristics....

As Vort alluded, God is infinite, and we are finite. I don't believe we can fully understand God and His mysteries in our finite state, without being perfected ourselves.

There are so many beautiful descriptions of God in the scriptures. In attempting to understand and apply the atonement to my life, I have come to believe some important concepts. For example; He is the Creator, I am the created. He knows all things, I know nothing comparatively. Any truth I do know comes through His power by the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. This being said, the only "true" happiness I can experience will come through believing Him and having faith in His words; i.e., obediently following His commands...Commands I can follow through diligent prayer, scripture study, and following the revelations given by the Holy Spirit.

I want to stress that I'm learning to rely only "upon His arm," and not on "the arm of flesh," i.e., anybody else, self included.

Dove, What brought you to this conclusion? Not that I disagree - I am just wondering.

The Traveler

[Dove]

Dove, What brought you to this conclusion? Not that I disagree - I am just wondering.

The Traveler

Hello, Traveler. It's nice to have you respond to my comments; Thank you. :)

I've read your comments carefully. If I understand correctly, you believe that while Christ is without sin, that does not mean He didn't sin during His mortal life; but, rather, could have sinned and then have been redeemed through repentance, thus becoming "without sin." Let me know if I've misunderstood~

I have been taught and have believed that Christ did not sin during his mortal life. That this is a great part of Him being "perfect." Here are some scriptural passages to support this belief.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:4, "Father, behold the sufferings and death of Him who did no sin, in Whom Thou wast well pleased;...."

Hebrews 7: 25-26 (JST); "For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens; And not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for He needeth not offer sacrifice for His own sins, for He knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this He did once, when He offered up Himself...."

As far as my relationship to the Godhead goes. I acknowledge that we are commanded to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." For me, the question is, how do I fulfill this commandment personally in my life? There are a lot of scriptures that tell us our place in relation to the Godhead. For example;

Mosiah 2:21 and 25 "I say unto you that if ye should serve Him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another- I say, if ye should serve Him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

"And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold , it belongeth to Him who created you."

2 Nephi 9:6-10 "For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement- save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. O the wisdom of God, His mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery,like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all mannder of secret works of darkness. O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of teh spirit."

Okay, I'll stop quoting scriptures, LOL....

So, how do you feel we can become "perfect" in this life, if we can?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hello, Traveler. It's nice to have you respond to my comments; Thank you. :)

I've read your comments carefully. If I understand correctly, you believe that while Christ is without sin, that does not mean He didn't sin during His mortal life; but, rather, could have sinned and then have been redeemed through repentance, thus becoming "without sin." Let me know if I've misunderstood~

I have been taught and have believed that Christ did not sin during his mortal life. That this is a great part of Him being "perfect." Here are some scriptural passages to support this belief.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:4, "Father, behold the sufferings and death of Him who did no sin, in Whom Thou wast well pleased;...."

Hebrews 7: 25-26 (JST); "For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens; And not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for He needeth not offer sacrifice for His own sins, for He knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this He did once, when He offered up Himself...."

As far as my relationship to the Godhead goes. I acknowledge that we are commanded to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." For me, the question is, how do I fulfill this commandment personally in my life? There are a lot of scriptures that tell us our place in relation to the Godhead. For example;

Mosiah 2:21 and 25 "I say unto you that if ye should serve Him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another- I say, if ye should serve Him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

"And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold , it belongeth to Him who created you."

2 Nephi 9:6-10 "For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement- save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. O the wisdom of God, His mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery,like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all mannder of secret works of darkness. O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of teh spirit."

Okay, I'll stop quoting scriptures, LOL....

So, how do you feel we can become "perfect" in this life, if we can?

As you point out in 2 Nephi 9:6-10, the need for resurrection does not require "sin" but requires being in a fallen state. And if we couldn't escape from death (future tense, hypothetical) then we would be subject to the devil. But, God's plan does not include that option and so we are redeemed from that death. The child that dies after living for 5 minutes did not sin. Are they perfect? The soul born with trisomy 18 did not sin, are they perfect?

God, could have sinned during His mortal existence? Sure, How would we know, if He repented? Do we believe the sins are washed clean, like snow or are there scars and marks left? If one believes that they are not completely washed clean, then where is the faith in Christ? A person who believes that the scar remains and that Christ cannot fully wash away the effects of sin, does not have faith in Christ, in my opinion. We have to believe that is possible, that is what is included in having faith in Christ and His atonement. If we believe that we all have to pay, eventually in full (if that were even possible) then there is no mediator or at least the mediator is temporary. But the very scripture you gave says it is eternal. God's mediation, then, would be eternal too, as if it never happened. Then, we can say God has been perfect and always will be, even though He may have sinned and then repented.

[Dove]

Hey, Seminary Snoozer;

Thanks for the explanation.....I believe that what both you and Traveler are saying is that the Savior (or even the Father) may have sinned during their mortality. Yet, because of the atonement, their sins could be washed cleaned, as if they never happened.

This is the first time I've heard this perspective. Honestly, I don't believe it....it goes against everything that I've known and been taught concerning the divinity of Jesus Christ...Yes, I quoted 2 Nephi 6-10. I reread what I wrote and it doesn't specifically address whether or not the Savior did "no sin." When it says that the fall came "by reason of the transgression," I've always understood that to mean the fall of Adam; not the Savior.

The scripts I quoted from the Doctrine and Covenants and from Hebrews JST each specifically say that He "did no sin" and is "seperate from sinners" as well as "for He needeth not offer sacrifice for His own sins, for He knew no sins; but for the sins of the people."

These seem to say specifically that the Savior was sinless, without sin or "did no sin" in His mortal life. This is a key point to me; one of the major points the whole atonement is built upon. The Israelites always sacrificed an unblemished lamb, signifying the purity of the Savior. I have always understood that, in order for Christ to be able to atone for our sins, He himself could do no sin, was without sin and had no need for repentance.....

This doesn't lessen the efficacy of the atonement in removing the condemnation of my personal sin/fallen state. It doesn't mean that I can't be totally washed clean from all my sin. What is does mean to me is that the only way I can be redeemed, cleansed and purified from my sin is through the Savior's atonement.

[Vort]

Thanks for the explanation.....I believe that what both you and Traveler are saying is that the Savior (or even the Father) may have sinned during their mortality. Yet, because of the atonement, their sins could be washed cleaned, as if they never happened.

Exhibit A for why such public speculation is unwise.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Exhibit A for why such public speculation is unwise.

The Forum is for speculation. If we wanted to only view the things that are put out by the church, there is a web site for that. 99% of the threads here are based in speculation, ponderings and questions. I think everyone who participates and reads the threads here should be aware of that. Knowing that ahead of time, why is that unwise?

I think I have learned a lot from these forums by taking the comments and then doing my own study, prayer and searching.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hey, Seminary Snoozer;

Thanks for the explanation.....I believe that what both you and Traveler are saying is that the Savior (or even the Father) may have sinned during their mortality. Yet, because of the atonement, their sins could be washed cleaned, as if they never happened.

This is the first time I've heard this perspective. Honestly, I don't believe it....it goes against everything that I've known and been taught concerning the divinity of Jesus Christ...Yes, I quoted 2 Nephi 6-10. I reread what I wrote and it doesn't specifically address whether or not the Savior did "no sin." When it says that the fall came "by reason of the transgression," I've always understood that to mean the fall of Adam; not the Savior.

The scripts I quoted from the Doctrine and Covenants and from Hebrews JST each specifically say that He "did no sin" and is "seperate from sinners" as well as "for He needeth not offer sacrifice for His own sins, for He knew no sins; but for the sins of the people."

These seem to say specifically that the Savior was sinless, without sin or "did no sin" in His mortal life. This is a key point to me; one of the major points the whole atonement is built upon. The Israelites always sacrificed an unblemished lamb, signifying the purity of the Savior. I have always understood that, in order for Christ to be able to atone for our sins, He himself could do no sin, was without sin and had no need for repentance.....

This doesn't lessen the efficacy of the atonement in removing the condemnation of my personal sin/fallen state. It doesn't mean that I can't be totally washed clean from all my sin. What is does mean to me is that the only way I can be redeemed, cleansed and purified from my sin is through the Savior's atonement.

By the way ... I never said it about the Savior, just Heavenly Father. But as Vort pointed out, this is just my speculation. I think it does bring up a good and useful point though. That we should believe in the complete redemptive power of our Savior, to have the ability to completely wash clean our sins.

[Traveler]

Hello, Traveler. It's nice to have you respond to my comments; Thank you. :)

I've read your comments carefully. If I understand correctly, you believe that while Christ is without sin, that does not mean He didn't sin during His mortal life; but, rather, could have sinned and then have been redeemed through repentance, thus becoming "without sin." Let me know if I've misunderstood~

I have been taught and have believed that Christ did not sin during his mortal life. That this is a great part of Him being "perfect." Here are some scriptural passages to support this belief.

Doctrine and Covenants 45:4, "Father, behold the sufferings and death of Him who did no sin, in Whom Thou wast well pleased;...."

Hebrews 7: 25-26 (JST); "For such an High Priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens; And not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for He needeth not offer sacrifice for His own sins, for He knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this He did once, when He offered up Himself...."

As far as my relationship to the Godhead goes. I acknowledge that we are commanded to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." For me, the question is, how do I fulfill this commandment personally in my life? There are a lot of scriptures that tell us our place in relation to the Godhead. For example;

Mosiah 2:21 and 25 "I say unto you that if ye should serve Him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another- I say, if ye should serve Him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

"And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold , it belongeth to Him who created you."

2 Nephi 9:6-10 "For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfil the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement- save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. O the wisdom of God, His mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery,like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all mannder of secret works of darkness. O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of teh spirit."

Okay, I'll stop quoting scriptures, LOL....

So, how do you feel we can become "perfect" in this life, if we can?

I do not disagree - I only sought clarification especially for this statement

I want to stress that I'm learning to rely only "upon His arm," and not on "the arm of flesh," i.e., anybody else, self included.

A couple of thoughts - many feel that "His arm" are the servants that G-d has chosen to represent him. What is the meaning of saint?

As to your question - I believe we are perfect in this life through the completeness of the covenants but there is another thought. The words whole and holy I believe to be connected. There were a couple of times Jesus told individuals - "Your faith has made you whole".

I do not want to play word games about needing Jesus to be whole or holy but the point is that through faith we repent and through the ordinance of baptism we establish a covenant - then by trial we are made whole.

The point is not to make it "through" without flaw but to continue to the end. Thus perfectness is not never falling again but getting up whenever we fall. (assuming we do not fall for the "same things".

It is interesting to me that in the scientific community the concept of intelligence is the ability to learn and modify our behavior. Thus the trick of intelligence is not necessarily "know" all but the ability to identify and modify based on our experience.

The Traveler

[Dove]

Hello, Traveler;

When I was referring to "the arm of flesh," in that thread I was trying to stress the importance of remembering who I am in relationship to the Godhead....

Perhaps my belief set sounds like the traditional christian's point of view; but, I strongly feel the words of King Benjamin, that without Him, I am nothing....

I am interested in what you said about the completeness of the covenants making us perfect in this life. This is a new concept to me.

From what I've observed and learned in watching myself and others around me, is that we all are soo far from being perfect. The rare exception I've read to this is in Mosiah. As I've already referred to, King Benjamin's speech. His people experienced a glorious change of heart. This was after they had diligently kept the commandments of the Lord.

What I've come to believe is how necessary it is to strive to humble myself before God. To realize how truly powerless I am without Him. I'm not saying that I am exempted from doing all that I can to follow Him with the power He has already given me. More, that I always recognize my relation to Him.

When I spoke of not relying on the arm of flesh, that includes everybody. Meaning that even when our leaders speak, I can pray about it and receive a personal witness that what they are saying is true and how their counsel applies to my particular circumstances. Relying on the Holy Spirit and personal revelation through prayer and scripture study is key to relying on His arm.

Vort; as far as speculation goes. I appreciate your concern. No worries, I'm a big girl and don't follow off the cuff other's musings.....Believe it or not, my testimony is strong of the gospel. I can feel and identify when the Spirit speaks to me...What other's feel/believe I can filter for myself through the personal revelation I was talking about. Thanks though.

[Vort]

Vort; as far as speculation goes. I appreciate your concern. No worries, I'm a big girl and don't follow off the cuff other's musings.....Believe it or not, my testimony is strong of the gospel.

Glad to hear it. My concern is primarily with those often-silent readers who may read stuff like this and get all sorts of wrong impressions, worrisome ideas, and so forth, that they are not prepared to deal with.

We have no teachings of any sort that even hint that God was ever, at any time, a sinful being. Public speculation about such an idea seems exceedingly unwise to me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Public speculation about such an idea seems exceedingly unwise to me.

Explain why this is "exceedingly" unwise if it is in support of the power of the atonement?

People on this forum speculate about God being a timeless God, even though we know His glory is to "bring to pass" the immortality and Eternal life of man. How is that speculation or any other speculation that is brought up on many of these threads any different. Your judgement of what is "exceedingly" unwise is your opinion and speculation as well.

[Vort]

Explain why this is "exceedingly" unwise if it is in support of the power of the atonement?

Because it will surely be seen by some people as blasphemous.

People on this forum speculate about God being a timeless God, even though we know His glory is to "bring to pass" the immortality and Eternal life of man. How is that speculation or any other speculation that is brought up on many of these threads any different.

Speculation that needlessly threatens people's foundational beliefs in God or leads to a wrong idea about LDS beliefs seem inherently dangerous.

Your judgement of what is "exceedingly" unwise is your opinion and speculation as well.

Of course it is my opinion. It is not speculation, however; it is a judgment.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Because it will surely be seen by some people as blasphemous.

Speculation that needlessly threatens people's foundational beliefs in God or leads to a wrong idea about LDS beliefs seem inherently dangerous.

Of course it is my opinion. It is not speculation, however; it is a judgment.

It is speculation that it "needlessly threatens people's foundational beliefs in God". I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. If you insist on calling it judgement, fine. I hope you don't get judged with that same measure of judgement. Wow!

How many things we write about our beliefs are seen by other people as blasphemous? That cannot be the criteria for what we can and cannot write on this forum.

Specifically, what foundational belief did I threaten? Name one. Even with what I said, God is eternally sinless, free of sin, perfect, clean, without sin, flawless and will always be. Specifically, what foundational belief in God was threatened?

We can go on and on about foundational beliefs that are threatened if we are that picky. What about Kingdom progression when we know the final judgement is final?

Just because this particular topic might rub you wrong, does not make it "exceedingly" unwise. Unless you tell me that you have had some revelation from God as a priesthood holder of authority that tells you otherwise, then I would ask for your forgiveness and change my view and faith about the topic. Otherwise, judging unrighteously is also exceedingly unwise.

[Vort]

My goodness. You've really taken this to heart.

It is speculation that it "needlessly threatens people's foundational beliefs in God". I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. If you insist on calling it judgement, fine. I hope you don't get judged with that same measure of judgement. Wow!

I will accept God's judgment of my judgment. I have not judged you personally, but I have maintained that such speculative discussions are unwise because they are potentially damaging. I stand by that judgment.

How many things we write about our beliefs are seen by other people as blasphemous? That cannot be the criteria for what we can and cannot write on this forum.

Agreed. This is why I tried to specify needless offense. If people take offense at our actual beliefs, not much can be done about that. On the other hand, if people take offense because some Mormon says, "We believe that one day we will be Gods over our own planets!", then that is giving needless offense by phrasing speculative doctrine in a manner sure to raise hackles.

Please note that this is exactly what antiMormons do: Phrase our beliefs as outrageously and provocatively as possible. What's bad coming from an antiMormon is worse coming from a Saint. We should be wiser than that.

Specifically, what foundational belief did I threaten? Name one.

God is perfect from all eternity to all eternity.

Even with what I said, God is eternally sinless, free of sin, perfect, clean, without sin, flawless and will always be.

Perhaps in how you define things. Surely you see that a great many others, especially those young and tender in the gospel and those outside Mormonism, might see them very differently. I see nothing to be gained by such speculation and a great deal to be risked.

Just because this particular topic might rub you wrong, does not make it "exceedingly" unwise. Unless you tell me that you have had some revelation from God as a priesthood holder of authority that tells you otherwise, then I would ask for your forgiveness and change my view and faith about the topic. Otherwise, judging unrighteously is also exceedingly unwise.

The kind of judgment I have engaged in -- judging a conversation to be highly unwise and better left unsaid -- is hardly the kind of judgment the Savior was talking about.

But if you prefer to think of me in such terms, be my guest. My judgment stands.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Vort

[pam]

The Forum is for speculation. If we wanted to only view the things that are put out by the church, there is a web site for that. 99% of the threads here are based in speculation, ponderings and questions. I think everyone who participates and reads the threads here should be aware of that. Knowing that ahead of time, why is that unwise?

I think I have learned a lot from these forums by taking the comments and then doing my own study, prayer and searching.

Actually that is incorrect. This forum is not for speculation. While it may seem that it happens quite often it is NOT for it. We should be providing answers based on actual doctrine taught by the Church. Not what we speculate it to be. I agree with Vort that it becomes very dangerous to do so.

From a moderator's perspective..I would much rather have people who would google and come to our site reading actual doctrine than speculation of any kind.

[Traveler]

Hello, Traveler;

When I was referring to "the arm of flesh," in that thread I was trying to stress the importance of remembering who I am in relationship to the Godhead....

Perhaps my belief set sounds like the traditional christian's point of view; but, I strongly feel the words of King Benjamin, that without Him, I am nothing....

I am interested in what you said about the completeness of the covenants making us perfect in this life. This is a new concept to me.

From what I've observed and learned in watching myself and others around me, is that we all are soo far from being perfect. The rare exception I've read to this is in Mosiah. As I've already referred to, King Benjamin's speech. His people experienced a glorious change of heart. This was after they had diligently kept the commandments of the Lord.

What I've come to believe is how necessary it is to strive to humble myself before God. To realize how truly powerless I am without Him. I'm not saying that I am exempted from doing all that I can to follow Him with the power He has already given me. More, that I always recognize my relation to Him.

When I spoke of not relying on the arm of flesh, that includes everybody. Meaning that even when our leaders speak, I can pray about it and receive a personal witness that what they are saying is true and how their counsel applies to my particular circumstances. Relying on the Holy Spirit and personal revelation through prayer and scripture study is key to relying on His arm.

Vort; as far as speculation goes. I appreciate your concern. No worries, I'm a big girl and don't follow off the cuff other's musings.....Believe it or not, my testimony is strong of the gospel. I can feel and identify when the Spirit speaks to me...What other's feel/believe I can filter for myself through the personal revelation I was talking about. Thanks though.

Greetings Dove,

You are an interesting person and I enjoy your insights. I would, however, point you in perhaps a different direction. One of my favorite persons in scripture is Enos. Perhaps his story touches me because I see much in parallel in my life. But moving forward – one of the aspects about “salvation” and “being perfect” I personally find concerning and out of character is the quest to gain such things for self. This is a little hard to explain but concepts leading being perfect almost become a hand book of instructions of acquisition.

The problem I see is the selfish or prideful desire to gain for one’s self. Or as Jesus said in essence only by losing ourselves do we find ourselves. Therefore, I believe in discussion of salvation and being perfect we focus far too much on our need and our qualifications. As important as personal discipline is – I think that such focus misses the mark and leaves us incomplete. As long as it is our sins to which we suffer we are disconnected from perfection, holiness and being one with Christ.

What impresses me about Enos is that he was not content or satisfied in his salvation but having been cleansed his focus completely shifted in a dramatic pyridine shift as his soul ached and desired (suffered) for (not just others but) his enemies. Many will argue about resurrected bodies and about power and glory as necessary for perfection – but I think such focus and arguments are hollow and empty speculations trying to compensate for something, not quite understood, that is missing. I believe that when the spirit directs us beyond our personal needs and desires to, as Enos saw, others to suffer with them – then at that moment – we are perfect. All the other stuff are just distractions.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Actually that is incorrect. This forum is not for speculation. While it may seem that it happens quite often it is NOT for it. We should be providing answers based on actual doctrine taught by the Church. Not what we speculate it to be. I agree with Vort that it becomes very dangerous to do so.

From a moderator's perspective..I would much rather have people who would google and come to our site reading actual doctrine than speculation of any kind.

Hmmmmm, Interesting - but perhaps the complete refusal to consider any speculation is the more dangerous? Or as my old math book would say - we leave this problem as an exercise for the reader.

The Traveler

[splash]

God is perfect. He is without sin. He has perfect knowledge and understanding. He sees the big picture. He is the one who will righteously judge us all.

[Guest gopecon]

It is speculation that it "needlessly threatens people's foundational beliefs in God". I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. If you insist on calling it judgement, fine. I hope you don't get judged with that same measure of judgement. Wow!

How many things we write about our beliefs are seen by other people as blasphemous? That cannot be the criteria for what we can and cannot write on this forum.

Specifically, what foundational belief did I threaten? Name one. Even with what I said, God is eternally sinless, free of sin, perfect, clean, without sin, flawless and will always be. Specifically, what foundational belief in God was threatened?

We can go on and on about foundational beliefs that are threatened if we are that picky. What about Kingdom progression when we know the final judgement is final?

Just because this particular topic might rub you wrong, does not make it "exceedingly" unwise. Unless you tell me that you have had some revelation from God as a priesthood holder of authority that tells you otherwise, then I would ask for your forgiveness and change my view and faith about the topic. Otherwise, judging unrighteously is also exceedingly unwise.

Judging an action is not the same as judging the person. To take an extreme example, if someone asked you if it was wrong that the married boss was having an affair with the secretary, you should be able to clearly and confidently say that said affair is wrong without feeling like an unrighteous judge.

Does that mean that the boss is a terrible person of little worth? Does that mean that the boss's wife should not forgive him? Does it mean that he cannot repent? If you answer "yes" to these questions, then you have probably moved into the type of judging that the Savior warned against.

[Traveler]

...

Does that mean that the boss is a terrible person of little worth? Does that mean that the boss's wife should not forgive him? Does it mean that he cannot repent? If you answer "yes" to these questions, then you have probably moved into the type of judging that the Savior warned against.

The problem with judging others to be bad for judging others is that one must judge others to be bad in order to believe it.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Actually that is incorrect. This forum is not for speculation. While it may seem that it happens quite often it is NOT for it. We should be providing answers based on actual doctrine taught by the Church. Not what we speculate it to be. I agree with Vort that it becomes very dangerous to do so.

From a moderator's perspective..I would much rather have people who would google and come to our site reading actual doctrine than speculation of any kind.

Thanks, I appreciate your answer. How does one differentiate, then, a question from speculation or even ponderings from speculation? How does opinion differ from speculation? Are we not allowed to give our opinion whatsoever on areas that are not revealed doctrine?

I apologize then. For me, the process of proposing thoughts and ideas has been very educational. With responses, I further ponder my beliefs and have learned a lot in that process. I am saddened by the idea that I can't express opinion on this forum. From now on then, I suppose I will just cut and paste scripture and GA quotes (even though there is a web site that all that can be googled already) ... if there is no "speculation" or personal pondering allowed.

[Vort]

Thanks, I appreciate your answer. How does one differentiate, then, a question from speculation or even ponderings from speculation? How does opinion differ from speculation? Are we not allowed to give our opinion whatsoever on areas that are not revealed doctrine?

I apologize then. For me, the process of proposing thoughts and ideas has been very educational. With responses, I further ponder my beliefs and have learned a lot in that process. I am saddened by the idea that I can't express opinion on this forum. From now on then, I suppose I will just cut and paste scripture and GA quotes (even though there is a web site that all that can be googled already) ... if there is no "speculation" or personal pondering allowed.

In general, speculation is not necessarily bad. But some things ought not be speculated about in public. Some doctrines are too hazy, and their potential for misunderstanding too great, for wise Saints to be publicly bantering them about. In my estimation, questions having to do with the supposed state of the Father "before being God", as if such a thing even makes sense or is defined, fall very squarely in that category. IMO, many questions about the specific nature and individual destiny of the Holy Ghost are also in this category.

Pondering is always fine, and I can see that it might not be harmful to pursue some general questions on such topics in a forum such as this. But I am of the opinion that persistent public digging in these so-called "deep" areas -- which are actually no such thing, but rather are the shallowest of speculation, betraying a naive understanding of the nature of eternal life and God himself, and thus indeed tending to portray God as something less than he is -- almost always leads to no good end.