6 Christian Questions...i Need To Know!

[Maureen]

Maureen,

You just keep scoring points in my book!

You're a sweetheart Dr. T! :)

M.

[SilkRose]

1) How come Christians don't have any Temples? Christ worshipped in a Temple, He went there to teach often and he even refers to the Temple as a house of God....And you can read about Temples all through the Bible....so, why don't Christians have Temples?

ANSWER 1: Temples were an important part of Judaism, and the New Testament mentions Christians being in temples, but an examination of the biblical role of the temple reveals some surprising facts when compared with the role of the LDS temple. In Mormonism, temples are not large meeting houses where Sunday services are held. In fact, most Mormons are not even allowed to enter the temple. Only “worthy” Mormons who have satisfactorily passed through a series of interviews have access to these buildings and the ceremonies performed therein.

In the Old Testament, God commanded Solomon to build a temple. When He did this, there were very specific details that God gave about what the purpose of the temple was, who could enter the various parts of the temple, what they were to wear, on what days they could enter, what was to take place in the temple, etc. The major activity of the temple was to offer various animal sacrifices to God for sins. Some of these offerings were from the fruit of their land, but great detail is given in Leviticus chapters one through nine about how different animals would be offered for different types of sins. When a Jew knew they had committed the sin of swearing, for instance, they would bring a lamb for the priest to sacrifice on their behalf to have the guilt of that sin covered (Leviticus 5:4-6). The whole reason they went to the temple was to obtain forgiveness of sins, not to prove their worthiness. They went because they knew there was a rift in their relationship with God and they needed to make the required sacrifice.

In LDS theology, temples serve an entirely different purpose. When an LDS temple is built, there is always a period of time before the temple is dedicated that it is open to the public for tours. The Mormon Church claims on their tour that their temple is a restoration of how Jews in the Old Testament built temples. They portray their temple as if it has many similarities to temples in the Old Testament. These claims are easily proven false.

1. The major purpose of the Old Testament temple was to offer animal sacrifices, but no LDS temple does this.

2. In Jewish theology, those who were going to the tem ple were going because they had sin that needed to be dealt with before God. In LDS theology, one must be deemed “worthy” to enter the temple. This term means that the LDS member has demonstrated in their life that they have met certain qualifications to be allowed access into the temple. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie defined it this way, “Worthiness is determined solely on the basis of personal righteousness.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 851)

3. In Jewish theology, there was only one high priest who could actually meet with God and this was only on one day a year. In LDS theology, both men and women are allowed in the temple and the office of “high priest” is bestowed upon thousands of LDS men all over the world. This system of priesthood in no way resembles the priesthood of the Old Testament.

4. One of the major activities in LDS temples is proxy baptisms for the dead. Not only does the Bible strictly forbid any interaction with the dead (Deuteronomy 18:11-12), but there is never any mention of doing any kind of baptism in the temples of the Old Testament.

5. Another major activity in LDS temples are marriages, which again, are glaringly absent in the Biblical record. The new testament specifically “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30).

In the New Testament, there was a considerable change in the significance of the temple. The Temple is not mentioned as a place where people needed to attend as part of their worship. Paul and the other apostles did go to the temple, but it was to try and win converts from Judaism to Christianity. In fact, one of the most exciting events that happened regarding the temple was as a result of the death of Christ.

Mathew 27:50-51: “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split,” This ended the need for the TEMPLE or the veil. Jesus is now our veil in which to pass to see God.

2) If Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God, literally...then where are your Prophets...God always had prophets to lead and guide his people....why don't Christians have a Prophet?

[SilkRose]

ANSWER 2: 1. Apostles and prophets are the two foundational ministries in the body of Christ. I have great respect for dedicated evangelists, pastors and teachers. I am personally ordained as a pastor and teacher. But the bible singles out apostles and prophets as the two ministries which, anchored to Jesus the Chief Cornerstone, undergird the Lord’s Church. All Christians are entitled to be built on this apostolic and prophetic foundation. And we will see later in this study that these are not just restricted to the early church’s apostles and the Old Testament prophets. They include contemporary, modern day prophets and apostles as well.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Ephesians 4:7-8, 11 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men” ... [11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers.

2. Who gives these ministries to the Church? These verses above declare that it is God the Father and Jesus the Son of God who give these ministries to the church. Jesus Himself is the premier expression of each of these offices.

• “Jesus, the apostle...whom we confess” (Hebrews 3:1)

• “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth” (Matthew 21:11).

• Jesus was certainly the Great Soulwinner, the consummate evangelist.

• Jesus is “the Shepherd [Greek word for “pastor”] and Overseer of your souls” (1 Peter 2:25).

• “Rabbi, we know you [Jesus] are a teacher who has come from God” (John 3:2).

It seems that Jesus — the chief apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher — is giving an expression of Himself to the Church in the form of these ministry gifts. For example, in Paul, Peter, and the other apostles we see a partial reflection of the perfect apostleship of Christ. In Agabus (Acts 11:27f; 21:10f) and other Christian prophets we see a partial expression of the perfect prophetic ministry of Jesus. The same could be said for God-given evangelists, pastors and teachers.

3. Apostles and Christian prophets are in the Church for the entire church age. A number of Scriptures (see below) make it very clear that apostles and prophets were intended for the full church age, and not just for the first century church.

Ephesians 3:4-5 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

Paul declares that the mystery has “now been revealed...to God’s holy apostles and prophets.” These were “now” — that is, contemporary — apostles and prophets in the Church several decades after Christ’s resurrection and ascension to heaven.

Some have erroneously identified the “prophets” in this verse as Old Testament prophets. But this very Scripture says quite the opposite. It states that the prophets receiving this “now” revelation were “NOT...men in other generations.” No, these were Christian prophets, contemporary to the time in which Paul was writing. These were apostles and prophets existing in the New Testament church.

Ephesians 4:8, 11-13 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men” ... [11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Here the apostle Paul gives us additional proofs that apostles and prophets were to continue during the Church Age.

• “When He ascended on high...He gave...some to be apostles, some to be prophets...” These were not the original Twelve apostles. This refers to apostles and prophets that Jesus continued to give after His ascension to heaven! For that reason some have called the “fivefold” ministries of Ephesians 4:11 the “ascension gift ministries.” Having ascended to heaven, Jesus continues to give all five, not just evangelists, pastors and teachers.

• And this giving of five ministries by Christ was not just to get the early church started. Rather, the giving of all five is needed “until we all...become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” That is an ongoing process occupying the entire time between Jesus’ First Coming and His Second Coming.

Revelation 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

These “two prophets” are the Lord’s “two witnesses” (Rev. 11:3) at the very end of the Church Age during the time of the Antichrist. Again we see Christian prophets long after the time of the early church, in fact at the very end of this age.

Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.

As end-time “Babylon” is judged, there is a call to contemporary, modern day, end time “saints and apostles and prophets” to rejoice over this divine judgment. Once again, contemporary apostles and Christian prophets are seen, not only at the beginning of the church age, but (here) at the end.

4. Is the New Testament Church today properly structured?

The answer to that question can be found in a very simple test. May I add that most Christians will fail this test!

• Question #1 — Which three of the Ephesians 4:11 ministries are mentioned most in the New Testament?

• Question #2 — Which two of those fivefold ministries are mentioned least in the New Testament?

The answers may shock you. They indicate how far out of balance the contemporary church has grown compared to the original church that Christ established on the earth.

• Answer to question #1:

• The word “apostle(s)” occurs 85 times in the New Testament.

• The word “prophet(s)” occurs over 150 times in the New Testament, about 20 of those occurrences referring distinctly to prophets in the Church Age.

• The word “teacher(s)” occurs 125 times in the New Testament.

• Answer to question #2:

• The word “evangelist(s)” occurs only 3 times in the New Testament.

• The word “pastor(s)” occurs precisely one (1) time in the entire New Testament! One time!

Consider those numbers. The Bible speaks of New Testament apostles, prophets, or teachers a combined total of approximately 200 times. Pastors and evangelists are mentioned a combined total of four times!

And yet the modern day church calls most ministers by the term “Pastor” and shies away from “apostles” and “prophets” like a horse avoiding a rattlesnake! Man’s prejudices, fears, or misinterpretations have deprived the Lord’s Church of the two foundational ministries that He Himself placed on earth. The Church today, wherever it denies these two ministries, is improperly structured. Pastors, evangelists, and teachers alone cannot bring the church to maturity. They were never intended to. Jesus gave all five ministries for that purpose.

Matthew 10:41a, KJV He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.

Why beat around the bush? Jesus tells us to receive someone who is a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” There is no biblical support for identifying certain ones as “evangelists, pastors and teachers” and then identifying true apostles and prophets with man-made phrases like: “He has an apostolic [or prophetic] mantle.” As if the Lord has given three nouns (evangelist, pastor, teacher) and two adjectives (apostolic, prophetic)! No! Jesus said to receive a prophet “in the name of a prophet.” It’s time for the Church to shake off the fear of man and return to biblical patterns.

[SilkRose]

3) Which one of the Christian churches should I go to to learn about Christ and His Gospel...there are so many? I have looked into some and they all teach something that I think is right but then they all have alot of differences...which one is the right Christian church...the one Jesus himself set up?

ANSWER 3: Jesus built only one church, and at that time all saved people were in that one church (Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:47).But today there are actually hundreds of different denominations, differing from one another in name, authority, worship, organization, plan of salvation and forgiveness of sins, etc. Yet all claim to be Christian, to follow Jesus, and to be pleasing to God. MATTHEW 7:15-21 will identify how a church belongs to Jesus.The true church can be identified because it teaches and practices the will of God. By learning Jesus' will for His church, we can know the identifying marks of His church. [Cf. 1 John 2:3-6]You cannot be voted into the Lord's church, you cannot purchase membership in it, and you cannot "join" it. You simply obey the gospel and let God add you (Acts 2:47).) What's the difference between a Christian and a Baptist? Or a Lutheran? Or Pentacostal? Presbyterian? Methodist? Calvinist? Evangelical?

ANSWER 4: The best way to find this out, is to obtain a statement of Faith from each church. It will make the post too long if I list each one. Contact the local churches. They each keep one handy.

[SilkRose]

5) If a person never hears the word of God...(I'm taking those who have been sheltered away from the Bible or denied the Bible such as in China), or never knows of or is taught of Christ....what happens to that person when he dies? Does he go to hell? Don't the Christian believe you have to be Baptised or you go to hell?

ANSWER 5: If a person never hears of Jesus Christ or the word of God, or little children under the age of understanding, then they will go to Heaven not hell. Hell is for those that knew God and chose to turn away from him. Luke 12:47-48

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I beleive that this is indicitive that God does not punish those that have not hear of Him. His punishments are a gradation of our works. John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This reflects that those who hear HIS word and Beleive on Him will have everlasting life. The emphasis on those that hear, tells me that God is leaving out those that do not hear from punishment.

[SilkRose]

6) And finally...what does "Saved" mean? I hear Christians say that all the time...even mass murderers on death row...does that me their sins are forgiven and they get to go to heaven with say an honest hardworking man who gave all he could to his fellow man?...do they reap the same reword?....cause if that's the case then I will go out and sin as much as I can (cause less face it, it's fun) and near the end of my life somewhere I'll get "Saved"!

ANSWER 6: Faith without works is dead. James 2:14-26. However "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The two seem to contradict each other. ergon is the original Greek for the English word "works." It does not appear to be a very difficult, ambiguous, or confusing term. But what do the many people and churches who claim that works are not required perceive "works" to be?

Opinions vary. One group perceives works to mean the whole law in general. A second group perceives works as specific portions of God's law, which they look upon as being "Jewish" or "Old Covenant," or that they are just not willing to keep and teach. A third group, amazingly enough in their rejection of it, perceives this term as meaning works of charity in general!

Individuals or groups who choose to substitute the word "law" for the word "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9, and who thus say that New Testament Christians do not have to keep God's law, do not appear to mean it totally and literally. Instead, most of them reserve the right to choose which parts of the law they wish to keep ("You shall not kill," "You shall not steal," etc.) and those that they do not wish to keep ("Remember the Sabbath," holy days, tithing, clean and unclean meats, etc.). God has nowhere given authority to His people to be selective in these matters, thus this stance toward the law is inconsistent and even hypocritical.

Conditions for Salvation

The church of God has always agreed one hundred percent with those who say that salvation is a gift, and that a Christian cannot earn salvation by charitable works or by obedience to God's law. However, obedience is a condition we must meet before God will give us His free gift of salvation. New Testament evidence is overwhelming on the matter. Here are just a few verses:

• And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit, which God has given to those who obey him. (Acts 5:32)

• He who says, "I know him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (I John 2:4)

• So He said to [the rich young ruler], "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17)

• If you love Me, keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

The apostle Paul, in Ephesians 2:8-9, does not say that works are not required at all. The purpose of his statement is to show that works do not save us, but that grace and faith do! In fact, the very next verse, verse 10, shows that God calls members of His church for the very purpose of performing good works: "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

The apostle's language is very clear. God desires us to walk in good works, and He has prepared our spiritual educational process so that we will learn to do them. Doing good works in the name of Jesus Christ is a major part of the purpose for the life of each true Christian. We cannot truly be Christians without them!

No Contradiction

Finally, is there any contradiction between the opinions of Paul and James on this matter?

Simply, no! Paul, in Ephesians 2:8 says that faith is required and, as we have seen, in verse 10, says that good works are also required. James, in the second chapter of his epistle, says that faith and works are inseparable:

• Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (verse 17)

• But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? (verse 20)

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (verse 26)

The Romans Road to salvation is a way of explaining the good news of salvation using verses from the Book of Romans. It is a simple yet powerful method of explaining why we need salvation, how God provided salvation, how we can receive salvation, and what are the results of salvation.

The first verse on the Romans Road to salvation is Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." We have all sinned. We have all done things that are displeasing to God. There is no one who is innocent. Romans 3:10-18 gives a detailed picture of what sin looks like in our lives. The second Scripture on the Romans Road to salvation, Romans 6:23, teaches us about the consequences of sin - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The punishment that we have earned for our sins is death. Not just physical death, but eternal death!

The third verse on the Romans road to salvation picks up where Romans 6:23 left off, "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 declares, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Jesus Christ died for us! Jesus' death paid for the price of our sins. Jesus' resurrection proves that God accepted Jesus' death as the payment for our sins.

The fourth stop on the Romans road to salvation is Romans 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, all we have to do is believe in Him, trusting His death as the payment for our sins - and we will be saved! Romans 10:13 says it again, "for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins and rescue us from eternal death. Salvation, the forgiveness of sins, is available to anyone who will trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The final aspect of the Romans road to salvation is the results of salvation. Romans 5:1 has this wonderful message, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Through Jesus Christ we can have a relationship of peace with God. Romans 8:1 teaches us, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Because of Jesus' death on our behalf, we will never be condemned for our sins. Finally, we have this precious promise of God from Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Sorry this is so long. I hope this helps to answer your questions. I have these same discussions with my husband all the time. He is LDS. You can email me at [email protected] if you have any further questions. I LOVE to debate.

[SilkRose]

Baptism of Jesus Christ was done as an example to show us how to Follow HIM>

[WANDERER]

Isaiah 40:3 Speaks of John the Baptist as a voice crying in the wilderness to prepare the way (backed up by the gospels)

and considering what happened afterwards, this demonstrates or made explicit and was revealed that this is the path to repentance through him. Jesus was baptised to fulfil all righteousness. It is a covenant or promise of deliverance. I guess it is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is 'the way'. Follow or not follow? Seems pretty clear to me.

[Moksha]

Strange duplicate from another planet, who came to this forum in the guise of this post...

[Moksha]

Salvation was not in the baptism. It's in repentence.

What about through the Grace of God?

[prisonchaplain]

What about through the Grace of God?

Grace of course...I thought we were focussing on our part?

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe we've got the cart before the horse? Rather than arguing that good works are a condition FOR salvation, we could argue that good works are a condition OF salvation. In other words, my good works do not drive me to salvation, but rather my salvation drives me to good works.

[Shell72]

SilkRose - very well done :)

[newvid]

I'm so tired that I do not have time to reply in any detail, but, SilkRose, you did basically a good job, but, sadly, are selling the charismatic bill of goods to people. Tongues and prophecy (as in telling the future - direct revelation) has ceased (1 Cor 13). There are a number of ways to prophesy. When I speak the Word of God, telling of prophetic things He has revealed, I am prophesying. I am FORTHtelling HIs Word, just as much as someone who had direct revelation in the Old Testament, becuase both stem from the revealed Words of God. Nowhere does it say the Two Witnesses will be delivering NEW revelation, though it is possible. We are told in Peter we have a MORE SURE Word of Prophecy, revealed in Scripture. THe foundation of the church was built UPON (past tense) the apostles and prophets. With the completed Word of God and the guiding of His Holy SPirit, we no longer need Prophets in the Old Testament sense of the word. This whole argument is clearly settled with some simple truths. THe mormons have "another Jesus". THey do not have the God of the Bible, the One who is Three in One. There are not three, or multiple, gods. As man is, God NEVER was, nor will man EVER become as God IS. GOd is eternal, never had a beginning. Jesus was NOT created, as they teach. Jesus is also eternal. Salvation IS by grace ALONE (there is not alternative) through faith ALONE. NOthing can be applied. James' point is simply that OUTWARDLY our salvation means nothing if it cannot be demonstrated by works. We are created UNTO good works, NOT saved BY them, in ANY way. IT is ALL of Jesus' finished work. We cannot change ourselves. We cannot earn our way. Mormons believe in created gods, not in the eternal God, we as Christians know. THey believe in celestrial planetary systems that we may one day inhabit as exalted "gods". That is not Biblical Christianity. There can be multiple denominations because man is fallible. Genuine Christianity is about individuals and their personal one-on-one relationships with the living and true God. What building they visit or the name on the door matters not, but only what has truly occured in their hearts. Some churches, sadly, are now far removed from the New Testament model, but any body of believers, true believers, who meet together, are a church, and Christ is in the midst. The "temple" of mormonism, as Silk rightly pointed out, is nothing like the Biblical model, regardless if it is called a temple. WE, believers, are the TRUE temple of the Holy Spirit, not some building. Finally, it was mentioned somewhere about christians just "mumbling some words" and being saved. That misses the whole point. God searches THE HEART. HE KNOWS one's heart if a geuine conversion of faith has taken place. The only words I said when I was saved was "yes" over and over again, as I LISTENED to a prayer of saving faith. My words were echoing what was actually transforming inside my heart throught the power of the Holy Spirit. I was saved by grace, just like the thief on teh cross. To answer the question asked before, Paradise WAS the holding place for all those who had been saved, before Christ returned to heaven. Jesus told the thief he would be in paradise with him THAT day. Now he is in heaven with his Lord. Anyway, exhausted and need to get to sleep.

[Shell72]

Excellent Post Newvid..

[newvid]

Thanks, Shell, :)and Praise the Lord!

[cgrantreed]

I will not even try and slip in sideways with this conversation because I am SOOOOOO not a scriptorian such as many of you appear to be. One thing that i noticed here... and have noticed in many other posts/forums/faiths is that we all seem to do a pretty good job of learning what we believe(study) and most do a very good job at believing what we have learned (faith). However we are comparing apples to gym shorts in a lot of cases because of the multiple generations of "retranslated" scriptures out there. Now I am not trying to bash anyone for using a study bible or a "New World, retranslated, Highlighted, italicized, red markered, modified edition, so and so sponsored, printed by some other church by the side of the road...(takes a breath)... pastor Joes thoughts on the gospel... book.

The thing that makes me stand back in awe to this is that i have seen some use scripture references that LOOK like they may have been King James'ish era and some are using NIV'ish translations. I had a conversation about religion with a guy that was a long time Christian and he was a real strong Christian to boot. We started to talk doctrine and he was asking where I was getting the references for some of my doctrinal claims and of course I had to go home and research them to get my references... because i SUCK at this kind of thing. I found them and wrote them down and took them to him for his perusal at home. He would read the references and then we would talk about them. After a short period of time it became waaaay clear that we were not using the same books. He was using some study bible written by some college professor like guy and it had side notes, foot notes, piano notes and a plethora of other stuff that had nothing to do with the price of chicken poop in Bangladesh. Was it close to what i was reading ( the KJV)? Somewhat, but it was so watered down that anything that i tried to talk about made it sound like I was no where around the mark compared to his "retranslated" version.

The LDS church believes that the KJV was the oldest and most correct English translation of the Holy Bible. So, that is what we use. I have taken 3 different bibles that other faiths use and put them side by side and compared the texts and what i felt that they said. Each was slightly different in context, which is what we base all faiths on...context. So it was like taking a sermon that someone used the words "And Jesus walked" from some specific verse in the bible and put them into their sentence for the sermon and said this: "In (insert bible chapter and verse here) it says... And Jesus Walked... which fits right into what i was talking about and that is that public transportation is a sin and should be abolished and shunned like the plague. He walked!!!!! AMEN". Now i realize that is a stretch but when everyone is using a different translation or something that "some guy" rewrote to make it "easier to understand" it seems to me, in my relatively naive knowledge of deep doctrinal facts, that anything can be spun to sound different. I saw that exact fact in the past references about being born of water. the original passage quoted was about baptism and the referenced passage that was quoted later said NOTHING about it which tells me that the two are not alike and that in itself is something that deserves scrutiny as doctrinal ideas were modified or left out.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't truth come in only 1 flavor? This is why as a church we chose to use only one reference and if any study bibles are used that they be referenced DIRECTLY with KJV for clarity and context. Just my 2 cents...

[prisonchaplain]

Cgran, other LDS members here have told me that while your church only publishes the KJV Bible, that there is no official translation, and that other versions can be used, without hesitation.

[cgrantreed]

yes... this is true. However, the 8th article of faith in our "articles of faith" states "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Which means specifically "if it is translated correctly". That is why they publish the KJV. It is felt that it was the oldest English translation. Any other newer translations in general are not saying exactly the same thing or their would be no use to say it again... and it would be plagiarism:-)

There are TONS of "study aid" books even in our own LDS bookstores. These however are to be used to assist in understanding different views of the passages and the KJV is supposed to be the "mother reference" to the others. So, when in doubt, fall back to the KJV. Many of the study aids quote the KJV texts directly and then have "plainer" explanations of the text and then use other references to back that opinion up. Nothing is to be taken as gospel until it is tried in faith, or prayed about for confirmation of truth though. That is idea anyway. So yes... we don't care if any other one is used but the foundation of the gospel is always referenced from KJV bible. Everything else is opinion of context and understanding as it were.

[newvid]

cgrantreed, it seems the ONLY thing I can really agree with your religion about is the use of the KJV, but even that is different, as I believe it IS THE WORD OF GOD, not that it best CONTAINS some of the Word of GOd which has not been corrupted in some places. No, it IS THE WORDS OF ALMIGHTY GOD, nothing less. IT is the most accurate translation. IT agrees with the majority of manuscripts. IT has been tried and tested for hundreds of years, and yet it stands. NOw about the born of water part. In the KJV it clearly refers to physical birth, as Jesus then goes on to say "That which is BORN OF FLESH is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit" He defines His terms RIGHT THERE. THey corrolate to "Born of water" (physical birth) and "Born again" (spiritual rebirth). He is simply saying that you cannot just be born physically to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but must ALSO have the birth from above (born again/spiritual birth of the Spirit). Let the context speak for itself. Try it, you'll love it!

[cgrantreed]

cgrantreed, it seems the ONLY thing I can really agree with your religion about is the use of the KJV, but even that is different, as I believe it IS THE WORD OF GOD, not that it best CONTAINS some of the Word of GOd which has not been corrupted in some places. No, it IS THE WORDS OF ALMIGHTY GOD, nothing less. IT is the most accurate translation. IT agrees with the majority of manuscripts. IT has been tried and tested for hundreds of years, and yet it stands. NOw about the born of water part. In the KJV it clearly refers to physical birth, as Jesus then goes on to say "That which is BORN OF FLESH is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit" He defines His terms RIGHT THERE. THey corrolate to "Born of water" (physical birth) and "Born again" (spiritual rebirth). He is simply saying that you cannot just be born physically to enter into the kingdom of heaven, but must ALSO have the birth from above (born again/spiritual birth of the Spirit). Let the context speak for itself. Try it, you'll love it!

You have a very passionate testimony of the KJV Bible. I admire that. Do you know the history of that version of the Bible? I would be interested in hearing it. The knowledge of it that i have, mind you I am NOT well versed in everything regarding the history of this sacred record, is that is was translated from a foreign tongue and compiled not by a prophet of God, but a mere mortal man. One of which was a King. History has proved many times that Kings were never completely loyal to Gods cause. So many of them were led by the desires and traditions of man, corruption and deceit allowed power to stay in place. Now I would never say that this man was not a man of God. He may have been listed in the book of life as one of Gods most loyal followers, but the flesh is weak. I understand from reading about it that he chose to omit some things that he didn't like or feel comfortable with and it had to be modified to be his "official" bible. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he took everything that was given to him in "perfect" context and without intent to lead and direct by his own will and desires. If so, that is one heck of a man and I wish to meet him in Heaven and shake his hand. I doubt it though. Christ was the only truly perfect mortal being.

I do know that there are many places in the Bible that it says: And God said or Jesus said. I also know that many people wrote of their accounts because they were literally commanded of God to do so. I believe this to be the word of God in as much as it was commanded to be compiled. On a like note but a little in left field from this specific topic... I believe the Constitution of the United States of America to also be the word of God... though its conveyed through a mortal man. Its all divine inspiration and it is all given of God for His purposes and understanding. Some of the same things in the scriptures take on mew meaning when taken literally and then taken figuratively. Both are right and both are valid in these days. That is why its so important to question everything and not believe but to KNOW their truths.

I may have more to learn I am sure:-) I am nobody, just the guy at the computer out searching for ALL the truths that God has for me. I know that they are not ONLY limited to the Bible. They are not ONLY limited to every reference of scripture that I hold in my faith. These truths are even in the world in places that you would never expect. I take what is said in the Bible to be VERY SERIOUS in my life. I know that Jesus Christ came to show me a "walk" in my life. He did not say "do as I say, not as I do". God said, This is my son of whom I am most pleased...Hear Him. Jesus preached throughout the world Gods laws and plans. He did not get baptized because he stunk from a 3 month walk. He got baptized because its a VITAL step in our path and not one step in His life should be ignored. There would have been no reason that He should have had to come if only a few parts of His journey were important. Use Jesus as your pattern.

He walked amongst that people and taught... Missionary work. He laid forth the Sacrament... renewal of the Spirit through proxy. He was Baptized... significant in so many ways but most significant in its symbolism and acceptance of His birth, death and resurrection. He prayed to HIS Heavenly Father... opening a channel for guidance. If baptism is not true and you can just be born again, why did Jesus not say "Forget baptism, just tell me you love me and I will save you". Its not that cryptic. Truth is ALWAYS true. Sometimes it just takes complete faith to understand it. Nothing in this life is free.

I am born again in my conversion to truly wanting to be His servant. However that means nothing if I am not using Jesus as my guide...literally, figuratively, spiritually, emotionally. Its the hardest thing I will have to ever accomplish in my life but the KNOWLEDGE of the truth is the key.And nobody has a perfect knowledge of the truths... not one of us could handle it.

[Shell72]

Cgran, other LDS members here have told me that while your church only publishes the KJV Bible, that there is no official translation, and that other versions can be used, without hesitation.

totally off topic here.. but I went shopping for a new Bible on Sunday and was amazed at all of the versions..

I ended up buying two..

One was The Amplified, and the other was a column comparison of the NIV and The Message...

Very good reading :)

[newvid]

You have a very passionate testimony of the KJV Bible. I admire that. Do you know the history of that version of the Bible? I would be interested in hearing it. The knowledge of it that i have, mind you I am NOT well versed in everything regarding the history of this sacred record, is that is was translated from a foreign tongue and compiled not by a prophet of God, but a mere mortal man. One of which was a King. History has proved many times that Kings were never completely loyal to Gods cause. So many of them were led by the desires and traditions of man, corruption and deceit allowed power to stay in place. Now I would never say that this man was not a man of God. He may have been listed in the book of life as one of Gods most loyal followers, but the flesh is weak. I understand from reading about it that he chose to omit some things that he didn't like or feel comfortable with and it had to be modified to be his "official" bible. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he took everything that was given to him in "perfect" context and without intent to lead and direct by his own will and desires. If so, that is one heck of a man and I wish to meet him in Heaven and shake his hand. I doubt it though. Christ was the only truly perfect mortal being.

I do know that there are many places in the Bible that it says: And God said or Jesus said. I also know that many people wrote of their accounts because they were literally commanded of God to do so. I believe this to be the word of God in as much as it was commanded to be compiled. On a like note but a little in left field from this specific topic... I believe the Constitution of the United States of America to also be the word of God... though its conveyed through a mortal man. Its all divine inspiration and it is all given of God for His purposes and understanding. Some of the same things in the scriptures take on mew meaning when taken literally and then taken figuratively. Both are right and both are valid in these days. That is why its so important to question everything and not believe but to KNOW their truths.

I may have more to learn I am sure:-) I am nobody, just the guy at the computer out searching for ALL the truths that God has for me. I know that they are not ONLY limited to the Bible. They are not ONLY limited to every reference of scripture that I hold in my faith. These truths are even in the world in places that you would never expect. I take what is said in the Bible to be VERY SERIOUS in my life. I know that Jesus Christ came to show me a "walk" in my life. He did not say "do as I say, not as I do". God said, This is my son of whom I am most pleased...Hear Him. Jesus preached throughout the world Gods laws and plans. He did not get baptized because he stunk from a 3 month walk. He got baptized because its a VITAL step in our path and not one step in His life should be ignored. There would have been no reason that He should have had to come if only a few parts of His journey were important. Use Jesus as your pattern.

He walked amongst that people and taught... Missionary work. He laid forth the Sacrament... renewal of the Spirit through proxy. He was Baptized... significant in so many ways but most significant in its symbolism and acceptance of His birth, death and resurrection. He prayed to HIS Heavenly Father... opening a channel for guidance. If baptism is not true and you can just be born again, why did Jesus not say "Forget baptism, just tell me you love me and I will save you". Its not that cryptic. Truth is ALWAYS true. Sometimes it just takes complete faith to understand it. Nothing in this life is free.

I am born again in my conversion to truly wanting to be His servant. However that means nothing if I am not using Jesus as my guide...literally, figuratively, spiritually, emotionally. Its the hardest thing I will have to ever accomplish in my life but the KNOWLEDGE of the truth is the key.And nobody has a perfect knowledge of the truths... not one of us could handle it.

:huh::huh::huh::

I just spent 15 minute replying to you and it did not go through. Oh well. You missed out on a very good response. Oh well. Not going through that again. Just check out this link on the KJV: 'The Answer Book' by Samuel C. Gipp IT was translated by a very accomplished translation committe, not King James. He only authorized the translation.

[Maureen]

You have a very passionate testimony of the KJV Bible. I admire that. Do you know the history of that version of the Bible? I would be interested in hearing it. The knowledge of it that i have, mind you I am NOT well versed in everything regarding the history of this sacred record, is that is was translated from a foreign tongue and compiled not by a prophet of God, but a mere mortal man. One of which was a King....

cgrantreed, I only skimmed a little of your post here, and realized quickly that you do need a little education regarding the history of the English Bible. So take your time, but please read the following articles provided by these links. Thanks!

Part I: From Wycliffe to King James (The Period of Challenge)

Part II: The Reign of the King James (The Era of Elegance)

Part III: From the KJV to the RV (from Elegance to Accuracy)

Part IV: Why So Many Versions?

Changes to the KJV since 1611:An Illustration

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1197

M. :)

[newvid]

cgrantreed, I encourage you to stick to the link I sent you. Also, look up the book An Understandable History of the Bible online. It is a clear explanation of how we got our Bible and how God PRESERVED it for us. With due respect to Maureen, all these multiple versions of Bibles are corruptions. The word used for virgin in Hebrew does NOT automatically mean young woman, but CAN mean virgin (the thought of the Hebrew was that young maidens WERE virgins), and, since the New Testament TELLS US what it is SUPPOSED to say, the KJV got it right. THe RSV did not. God knows what He is doing. Again, we as Christians can agree to disagree on some issues, but we do NOT disagree on God's plan of salvation, the True Gospel that Paul gave his life defending.