The ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan

[peteolcott]

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me (many times over many years) that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan can be stated in two words: Maximize Joy!

When I tell the dozens or Mormon missionaries this they provide me with 2 Nephi 2:25

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

When I say that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan is to Maximize Joy, I mean:

That "maximize Joy" is the pinnacle of the decision tree upon which every other aspect of the plan is fundamentally based and that "maximize Joy" is the ultimate criterion measure for determining right and wrong.

When I say "Maximize Joy" I am referring to the maximum quantity and quality of joy, (largest degree of joy and longest duration of joy). Because of this I am not referrring to things that produce a small amount of joy in the short term at the expense of reducing larger amounts of joy in the longer term.

Please see whatever agreement that you can provide with the above. If for whatever reason you see any disagreement, please only seek further clarification.

The most important doctrine that I have learned from the Mormon Church is the Spirit of Contention (3 Nephi 11:29-30) this single doctrine has been the most life changing for me. I continue to strive to be more like the excellent examples of humility provided by the members of my Ward. I still "miss the mark" of these examples so please be patient with me, I am striving to become more humble.

Edited November 12, 2011 by peteolcott

[Dravin]

Seems an accurate analysis as long as one keeps in mind the right sense of joy, which you do. A paralleled doctrine, though it's looking the other direction, is that wickedness never was happiness (Alma 41:10). Within the context of your post I don't think it would be untoward to paraphrase it as wickedness never was joy, or maximum joy. That is to say any wickedness we may commit is reaching for less joy. Not that it forever bars someone from it because of the Atonement but it's reaching off the plotted course.

[peteolcott]

Seems an accurate analysis as long as one keeps in mind the right sense of joy, which you do. A paralleled doctrine, though it's looking the other direction, is that wickedness never was happiness (Alma 41:10). Within the context of your post I don't think it would be untoward to paraphrase it as wickedness never was joy, or maximum joy. That is to say any wickedness we may commit is reaching for less joy. Not that it forever bars someone from it because of the Atonement but it's reaching off the plotted course.

It might seem that the only truly wicked (wrongful) things would be those things that inherently produce the opposite of joy (within ourselves or others).

Those things that produce small amounts of joy over the short term at the expense of greater joy in the longer term would then not be considered wicked or evil, more aptly they might be considered "not sufficiently rightful".

Also those things that produce small amounts of joy in the short term at the expense of larger despair in the longer term would be considered wrongful.

[slamjet]

I dunno, I would say there's more to it. Ultimate joy would be eternal life. As for this realm of existence is joy would be the goal, but i think more important, experience. I believe he expects us to do those things that will bring misery because without it, we would have no life experience and not know what joy is in the first place.

Thus, repentance.

[james12]

I would agree that God's master plan would be ultimate joy. But it is of a tempered, knowing sort. It is a joy that understands deep loss, profound sorrow, and pain.

I also would consider another aspect. In order to increase our joy from our pre-earth life we must be gloriously embodied in a physical tabernacle. When we have a physical body we gain deeper feeling and understanding than we had before.

[Dravin]

I dunno, I would say there's more to it. Ultimate joy would be eternal life. As for this realm of existence is joy would be the goal, but i think more important, experience. I believe he expects us to do those things that will bring misery because without it, we would have no life experience and not know what joy is in the first place.

Thus, repentance.

Oh, there is lot more to it. I thought we were talking aim points though. It's like the ultimate point of a ship's voyage may be to get from point A to point B and can be simply stated as such but the ultimate point does not get into everything it takes to make that happen. What I think you are getting at is that there is blood, sweat, tears (most notably that of the Savior) and plain old experience between us and that joy, or as Eve put it:

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

And I 100% agree with you, that the end purpose of God's plan is joy doesn't mean life will be, or even was supposed to be, "happy happy joy joy". That is to say without any turmoil, suffering, strife or opposition. These things as you point out are part and parcel of the journey to joy.

Though I would note that while such is part of the plan because it is how the ultimate point is realized, it isn't the ultimate point. Somewhat like how all the work that goes on in an engine room is not the ultimate point of a ship's travels but a necessary part of reaching that point.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Dravin

[slamjet]

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. For me, maximum joy would apply to mortal life and we can't know it until we have our own individual maximum pain/grief. I know it's probably semantics, but the ultimate goal wouldn't be maximum joy, it would be ultimate joy.

Probably why I don't trust people who smile all the time.

[peteolcott]

As for this realm of existence is joy would be the goal, but i think more important, experience. I believe he expects us to do those things that will bring misery because without it, we would have no life experience and not know what joy is in the first place.

Yes, and the purpose of experience is to learn how to attain greater joy. I also agree that some misery is required to know joy.

[peteolcott]

I would agree that God's master plan would be ultimate joy. But it is of a tempered, knowing sort. It is a joy that understands deep loss, profound sorrow, and pain.

I also would consider another aspect. In order to increase our joy from our pre-earth life we must be gloriously embodied in a physical tabernacle. When we have a physical body we gain deeper feeling and understanding than we had before.

Yes it seems that these things are true. Yet if these things are true how could any degree of paradise be possible?

[peteolcott]

Oh, there is lot more to it. I thought we were talking aim points though. It's like the ultimate point of a ship's voyage may be to get from point A to point B and can be simply stated as such but the ultimate point does not get into everything it takes to make that happen. What I think you are getting at is that there is blood, sweat, tears (most notably that of the Savior) and plain old experience between us and that joy, or as Eve put it:

And I 100% agree with you, that the end purpose of God's plan is joy doesn't mean life will be, or even was supposed to be, "happy happy joy joy". That is to say without any turmoil, suffering, strife or opposition. These things as you point out are part and parcel of the journey to joy.

Though I would note that while such is part of the plan because it is how the ultimate point is realized, it isn't the ultimate point. Somewhat like how all the work that goes on in an engine room is not the ultimate point of a ship's travels but a necessary part of reaching that point.

Yes it seems that we are in agreement. Some grief, pain and suffering seems a required part of the path to maximum joy.

[peteolcott]

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. For me, maximum joy would apply to mortal life and we can't know it until we have our own individual maximum pain/grief. I know it's probably semantics, but the ultimate goal wouldn't be maximum joy, it would be ultimate joy.

I can't distinguish any difference between maximum joy (largest amount of joy for the longest amount of time) and ultimate joy.

[Guest]

I can't distinguish any difference between maximum joy (largest amount of joy for the longest amount of time) and ultimate joy.

It's kind of like trying to buy hairspray. Maximum hold? Ultimate hold? Ultra? Which is superior?

[pam]

It's kind of like trying to buy hairspray. Maximum hold? Ultimate hold? Ultra? Which is superior?

Super glue

[Guest]

Super glue

"Permanent hold" hairspray. Thank goodness they didn't have that in the 80's.

[Traveler]

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me (many times over many years) that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan can be stated in two words: Maximize Joy!

When I tell the dozens or Mormon missionaries this they provide me with 2 Nephi 2:25

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

When I say that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan is to Maximize Joy, I mean:

That "maximize Joy" is the pinnacle of the decision tree upon which every other aspect of the plan is fundamentally based and that "maximize Joy" is the ultimate criterion measure for determining right and wrong.

When I say "Maximize Joy" I am referring to the maximum quantity and quality of joy, (largest degree of joy and longest duration of joy). Because of this I am not referrring to things that produce a small amount of joy in the short term at the expense of reducing larger amounts of joy in the longer term.

Please see whatever agreement that you can provide with the above. If for whatever reason you see any disagreement, please only seek further clarification.

The most important doctrine that I have learned from the Mormon Church is the Spirit of Contention (3 Nephi 11:29-30) this single doctrine has been the most life changing for me. I continue to strive to be more like the excellent examples of humility provided by the members of my Ward. I still "miss the mark" of these examples so please be patient with me, I am striving to become more humble.

I am not saying that I disagree but sometimes I have problems with compartmentalizing concepts with simplistic ideas. It is not always the idea but the attempt to express the idea that often times misses the mark.

For example we could say that every act is in reality a selfish act. But sometimes such compartmentalizing misses the mark in understanding love and compassion for others. I do however like the idea that this post is thinking in terms that G-d is bringing the maximum joy to mankind rather than attempting to maximum joy for himself. This may seem like a very simple concept but I think that it is of upmost importance in understanding G-d and the nature of G-d.

Thus if G-d’s greatest joy is in bringing joy to his creation then the truth is that we can only understand and experience such joy if we are able to fully and completely emulate the magnitude of the joy of G-d. This then would require at least two steps. One is the obtaining of all power of a all powerful G-d of such wonder and intelligence as to create “all things”. And then the second is to put all that we have obtained on the line for the benefit of our “inferior” creation. In essence a true gift of complete love and sacrifice. This means that salvation of self reward is and illusion but salvation as a gift and sacrifice for others is the elusive joy of G-d.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only organization that I have encountered so far on earth that seem to understand and perpetrate this notion - And even then it seems to me most struggle daily to live out even one day of our mortal life with this understanding. And please do not think me a good example - the only recommendation that I can make is to believe in Jesus Christ as our example - not just of what is a G-d worthy of worship but also of what we ought to be.

The Traveler

[slamjet]

I can't distinguish any difference between maximum joy (largest amount of joy for the longest amount of time) and ultimate joy.

In my mind, maximum denotes a level that is worked for and earned; ultimate is given.

[peteolcott]

It's kind of like trying to buy hairspray. Maximum hold? Ultimate hold? Ultra? Which is superior?

But that is just marketing hype which tends to be somewhat deceitful.

[peteolcott]

I am not saying that I disagree but sometimes I have problems with compartmentalizing concepts with simplistic ideas. It is not always the idea but the attempt to express the idea that often times misses the mark.

Yes that is what I am referring to when I ask for clarification instead of disagreement.

For example we could say that every act is in reality a selfish act. But sometimes such compartmentalizing misses the mark in understanding love and compassion for others. I do however like the idea that this post is thinking in terms that G-d is bringing the maximum joy to mankind rather than attempting to maximum joy for himself. This may seem like a very simple concept but I think that it is of upmost importance in understanding G-d and the nature of G-d.

God figured out that his own joy could be greater if he also received joy through maximizing the joy of others.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only organization that I have encountered so far on earth that seem to understand and perpetrate this notion - And even then it seems to me most struggle daily to live out even one day of our mortal life with this understanding. And please do not think me a good example - the only recommendation that I can make is to believe in Jesus Christ as our example - not just of what is a G-d worthy of worship but also of what we ought to be.

I agree that Yeshua (his name never really was Jesus) is the perfect example.

[Guest mormonmusic]

While we are on the subject of Joy, perhaps I can ask some questions. After 27 years of Church membership, I find there are times when my experience in the Church no longer brings me joy. For example, in spite of concerted effort in attaching Church service to the needs of others, I find it often repetitive and difficult to stay interested in it. Moving, setting up chairs, hearing much of the same ideas over and over and over again, driving long distances to get to meetings, and frequent rejection from others as I do home teaching or other outreach initiatives. At times, the sacrifices can be joy-detracting for me.

At different times, the sheer volume of time required of me when there are so many other competing demands on my time, has at times, instilled a lasting sense of blueness over the LDS experience for me.

Now, I'm not shooting down the Church, just saying that if joy is the object and design of our existence, what do you do when the Church's plan for joy-production seems less effective in your life, or even detracts from your happiness? And this, in spite of concerted effort to love others, be spiritual, while keeping the commandments necessary for a temple recommend, and stretching your heart to be pure and charitable?

[sister_in_faith]

Music,

I think that periods of inactivity in the church are not always 'bad'. In fact one of the most faith building times for me was coming back from a period of inactivity. I never feel away from the 'teachings' of the church, so it wasn't hard for me to get right back to it, and after not attending church for a while, feeling the spirit prompt me to go back was wonderful, plus I was rejuvenated (sp?). I'm not suggesting that anyone go inactive for a faith building excersize, I'm just saying that if you need a break, TAKE one! I personally don't see anything wrong with it. It's much better than wallowing in misery (exaggeration, I know) and not feeling the spirit like you would otherwise! As long as taking a break doesn't mean getting drunk every night, it just means that you aren't participating in structured church activities. And if you feel the need to take sacrament while you are away, visit a different ward, sit outside the main chapel, and take sacrament. You don't even have to stay for the whole meeting! I've done it!

That is just a thought!

[Dravin]

Now, I'm not shooting down the Church, just saying that if joy is the object and design of our existence, what do you do when the Church's plan for joy-production seems less effective in your life, or even detracts from your happiness? And this, in spite of concerted effort to love others, be spiritual, while keeping the commandments necessary for a temple recommend, and stretching your heart to be pure and charitable?

I think mine and Slamjet's point is pertinent here, that the ultimate point is joy does not mean there will be no pain, suffering, trial, or that things will be a complete and utter "happy happy joy joy" experience as I put it. Pain, suffering, painful sacrifice, and trials, these are all markers along the path to the goal.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest mormonmusic]

And a refreshing thought it is!

[james12]

While we are on the subject of Joy, perhaps I can ask some questions. After 27 years of Church membership, I find there are times when my experience in the Church no longer brings me joy. For example, in spite of concerted effort in attaching Church service to the needs of others, I find it often repetitive and difficult to stay interested in it. Moving, setting up chairs, hearing much of the same ideas over and over and over again, driving long distances to get to meetings, and frequent rejection from others as I do home teaching or other outreach initiatives. At times, the sacrifices can be joy-detracting for me.

At different times, the sheer volume of time required of me when there are so many other competing demands on my time, has at times, instilled a lasting sense of blueness over the LDS experience for me.

Now, I'm not shooting down the Church, just saying that if joy is the object and design of our existence, what do you do when the Church's plan for joy-production seems less effective in your life, or even detracts from your happiness? And this, in spite of concerted effort to love others, be spiritual, while keeping the commandments necessary for a temple recommend, and stretching your heart to be pure and charitable?

Mormonmusic, you ask some very good and sincere questions. I think sister_in_faith's response is also sincere but misses the mark. For instance, if it's good to take a break from church for a time then why not always? If I took this thought to it's extreme I could say, "receive ordinances by doing the bare minimum and then avoid all responsibility by not participating." If it works short term why not long term?

That being said, I understand the feeling of being overwhelmed with demands. I don't have a great answer yet. In relation to this issue I believe I can boil my thoughts down to two questions.

1. Should my membership in the church provide increased joy now? Should it at least give peace?

2. If so why does experience sometimes prove otherwise?

[cwald]

Hey Pete, I like the thought, and I kinda agree. I might word it slightly different though. I think the ultimate purpose of the gods' plan is for one to find PEACE.

Peace. Joy. Yeah, I get what you are saying.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me (many times over many years) that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan can be stated in two words: Maximize Joy!

When I tell the dozens or Mormon missionaries this they provide me with 2 Nephi 2:25

"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

When I say that the ultimate purpose of God's Master Plan is to Maximize Joy, I mean:

That "maximize Joy" is the pinnacle of the decision tree upon which every other aspect of the plan is fundamentally based and that "maximize Joy" is the ultimate criterion measure for determining right and wrong.

When I say "Maximize Joy" I am referring to the maximum quantity and quality of joy, (largest degree of joy and longest duration of joy). Because of this I am not referrring to things that produce a small amount of joy in the short term at the expense of reducing larger amounts of joy in the longer term.

Please see whatever agreement that you can provide with the above. If for whatever reason you see any disagreement, please only seek further clarification.

The most important doctrine that I have learned from the Mormon Church is the Spirit of Contention (3 Nephi 11:29-30) this single doctrine has been the most life changing for me. I continue to strive to be more like the excellent examples of humility provided by the members of my Ward. I still "miss the mark" of these examples so please be patient with me, I am striving to become more humble.

I think the only way a person can achieve "maximum joy" is when finding joy in the success of others is learned. I think this is why God's plan involves eternal family, a connection so strong as we can feel joy when others are successful. We learn that truth by having family in this life and belonging to a church group that gives us similar experiences.