Do Embyo's have a soul?

[HappyJoy]

My husband and I have two children. One of them has Cystic Fibrosis (CF). CF is a life shortening genetic disease that affects the respiratory and digestive systems. She had many complications her first year of life and she spent most of that first year at the hospital. I think I estimated that her medical expenses that year were about $200,000 or more. It’s hard to see your child struggle so much. She’ll have to struggle with everyday things like everyone else does, plus her health issues. But even so I think she has a very good quality of life; she is very strong willed and almost always has a smile on her sweet little face. She is our perfect little sunshine, both of our children are.

The doctors at our local children’s hospital have told us that if we plan to have any more children that we should consider PGD or preimplantation genetic diagnosis. PGD is a step beyond invetro fertilization IVF. The embryos are tested to see which ones have the CF gene mutation. The embryo’s that carry the mutation are thrown away, and only the embyo’s with “perfect” gene’s are implanted into the uterus.

One part of me worries that if we do PGD then I’ll stand before the judgment bar of God and He’ll say “you’re a murderer”. The other part of me wonders why God would give us this technology if we weren’t supposed to use it for this purpose, wouldn’t He expect me to do everything I can to make sure my child doesn’t suffer if He’s already given us the technology? …Like that story about the man that was stranded on an island and he prayed for God to rescue him. God sent 3 different boats to come get him but each time the man said “no thanks, I’m waiting for God to save me”. Also, is the embryo a baby even if it’s in a petri dish? Or is the embryo a baby only after being implanted in the mother’s uterus. After all, if the embryo isn’t in the mother it never had a chance of surviving anyway right?

I've heard that the church is o.k. with IVF as long as there is no embryo wastage. Is that right? Well, this would definitely be embyo wastage. The church hasn't come out with a position on PGD that I know of.

My husband and I have looked into adoption; it doesn’t look like that will be able to happen any time soon. We would like a few more biological children as well as adoption. I love children!!! This may sound stupid to some, but I think it’s natural for most women to want children as much as they want and need to breathe. I would appreciate anyone’s opinions, but please be nice.

Edited November 13, 2011 by HappyJoy

[annewandering]

My husband and I were discussing this very thing this morning. Well not the PGD but when life begins. Have you given consideration to not destroying the embryos that are determined to have the genetic problem?

There are lots of embryos that are not implanted naturally. I think, and this is just opinion, that you have to do the best you can with prayer and the knowledge you have. Some day soon they may be able to correct the dna then it wouldnt be a problem anymore but we dont live in that time yet. I would just feel wrong tossing embyros but I also would prefer babies that can be born healthy are. Maybe its like saying to your future child, ok here are two choices for you. I chose for you to be born in this healthy body. Maybe you would not be able to see it that way. Dont know if I would or not.

OK been doing more thinking on this. If an embryo can be frozen for an indefinite time and still be taken out and implanted and grow to be a baby born out of the womb just fine then does it make sense that it had a spirit inhabiting it all that time?

I will go another step, even though I do not want anyone to think I am speaking any kind of doctrine. I had two babies that died. One before birth and one after. I have had 8 other children. and a few miscarriages. One thing that I have noticed is that with the babies that died there were times when it felt that there was no one "home". At other times I felt them being 'home' kind of like when you come home to an empty house with kids gone somewhere and one with kids home but doing homework. lol if that ever did happen. I never had the feeling of no one being home with any of my other kids. Take that for what you can make of it.

Edited November 13, 2011 by annewandering

[Dravin]

As far as I know there has been no revelation to the Church as to the specific time the soul enters the body. There is an Ensign article that discusses the subject (the article is talking about stillbirth and miscarriage). A relevant quote:

It is not clear exactly at what point of development that “certain stage” of quickening—when the spirit makes eternal claim to the body—occurs. Even though quickening occurs before birth, we still do not know definitely when a living soul comes into existence.

Link: I Have a Question - Ensign Sept. 1987 - ensign

[Guest]

We took this issue to our bishop to get an answer, which wasn't very specific, and then took it to prayer. I think that's the only way to come to a good answer for yourself. No one else's opinion matters, it's what you get through counsel with your bishop and personal revelation- which is why I don't offer the specifics of what answers we got and what we ended up doing.

[LittleWyvern]

Even science has a very difficult time answering this question. How do you define life? How do you define if something is "alive"? I had a fun day in one of my biology classes at BYU where the class would try to come up with a definition, and our professor would talk about something and say "what about this?", which would make us scramble to come up with a definition. After about 15 minutes of this we realized that it's impossible to draw up such a definition.

Given the lack of evidence both from the spiritual and scientific sides of this, I think this issue goes into the "stuff we don't know but might know later" file.

[Maureen]

IMO, I would say no, an embryo does not have a soul. An embryo contains cells that are needed to create a living thing; but if the cells do not multiply, then the embryo cannot grow.

M.

[Just_A_Guy]

HappyJoy, I can't advise as to the moral implications of what you suggest--that's too personal a call--but I used to home teach a family with three kids with CF. There's an article about them online here that may give you some food for thought.

[MarginOfError]

One part of me worries that if we do PGD then I’ll stand before the judgment bar of God and He’ll say “you’re a murderer”.

I have a hard time believing God would say something of this nature regarding Artificial Reproductive Medicine when he doesn't consider abortion to be in the same class as murder.

I've heard that the church is o.k. with IVF as long as there is no embryo wastage. Is that right? Well, this would definitely be embyo wastage. The church hasn't come out with a position on PGD that I know of.

"The Church strongly discourages in vitro fertilization using semen from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them." -- Handbook 2, 21.4.7

There's not comment from the church on embryo wastage. If we were concerned about embryo wastage, indeed, we'd have a lot of explaining to do for the estimated 40% of all pregnancies that end in miscarriage (many of which women never even know about).

I can't speak authoritatively for the church, but if you have the means to pay for the procedure, I think your child will appreciate being born without such a serious health issue.

And no, I personally do not believe that embryos have a soul.

[applepansy]

I am not judging your situation. I can only speak to mine. I've been pregnant 7 times. I lost 3, the last at 20 weeks.

My personal spiritual experience tells me that the spirit is there at conception. The spiritual confirmation I received in the temple was profound. I knew when conception occurred. I felt someone with me. I also knew when the baby died in the miscarriages, most especially in the last one. I felt the spirit leave.

I also believe that spirits get to choose if they want to accept the body or not. That's my personal opinion.

My sister was told that her third baby would have down's syndrome. She was advised to abort the pregnancy and try again. She didn't. The child didn't have down's or anything else wrong with him. He's amazing and has an exceptionally high IQ.

Medical testing and procedures are not conclusive when it comes to creating a body for a wonderful spirit. I don't have a lot of faith in physicians who decide to play God.

Only you can decide what is best for your family. I know that the Lord can and will bless you and the child regardless of the issues (health, emotional, etc). that the child may face.

[drr456]

Just my opinion but I think life begins when you enter the world and take that first breath! Man can grow an embro in a lab but they haven't been able to give the gift of "life". That first breath, I think is when the soul enters the body until then I think it stays up there with Heavenly Father until it's time.

[drr456]

I say use the technology we have. It's wonderful and has been such a blessing to those that have longed for children and as long as it's your beginnings than I say absoultely. Good luck to you and bring it to the Lord.

[Vort]

I have a hard time believing God would say something of this nature regarding Artificial Reproductive Medicine when he doesn't consider abortion to be in the same class as murder.

The fact that God does not presently treat abortion as murder does not mean that he does not see abortion as murder. This is a faulty inference on your part.

[Guest gopecon]

I believe that abortion has been called "like unto murder". We've been given the guidance that it should not take place unless the mother's life is in danger, or in cases of rape or incest. It's treated as a very serious offence, but given the exceptions that are allowed it can't be called murder (how could you justify that it is okay to commit murder against an innocent person?). I guess this also hinges on what you call murder. I'd say that murder is the intentional taking of another's life in a situation that did not call for it (i.e. active war, self defense, etc.).