Problem Of Pain

[Dr T]

In another thread, Shan brought up the "Problem of Pain" and it's implications on the characteristics of a loving, all powerful and all good God. I'd love to hear your ideas on this.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[StrawberryFields]

Maybe it is just me, but I don't understand your question.

[shanstress70]

Sorry Dr T, but I don't get it either. I don't remember talking about the 'problem of pain'. But it's possible I'm just out of it today!

[Dr T]

Historically it has been called the problem of evil.

The argument from evil (or problem of evil) is the argument that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good God would not allow any--or certain kinds of--evil or suffering to occur. Unlike the logical argument from evil, which holds that the existence of God (so defined) is logically incompatible with some known fact about evil, the evidential (or probabilistic) argument from evil contends that some known fact about evil is evidence against the existence of God. For instance, one version of the argument contends that the biological role of pain and pleasure is much more likely on naturalism than theism (e.g., Paul Draper).

Other versions of the evidential argument concede that God could have a morally sufficient reason for allowing certain evils to occur--e.g., to ensure that some greater good is achieved as a consequence of an evil. However, proponents add, God would only allow as much evil or suffering as is absolutely necessary in order to achieve greater goods. But when we look at the world around us, we find prevalent instances of apparently gratuitous evil--pointless evils from which no greater good seems to result. According to proponents, the existence of apparently gratuitous evil provides strong evidence that God (as traditionally defined) does not exist (e.g., William Rowe).

For thousands of years theologians and philosophers have developed elaborate theodicies--responses to the argument from evil which retain belief in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good God. According to the unknown purpose defense (UPD), God allows apparently pointless suffering for some reason that we can't comprehend. The free will defense (FWD) maintains that God has to allow the existence of some evil in order to preserve human free will (e.g., Alvin Plantinga, Robert Adams). Finally, the soul-making theodicy (SMT) contends that God allows some evil because it builds positive character in the victims or in others which outweighs the negative value of the evil itself (e.g., John Hick).

There are several problems with each of these theodicies, but I will only note the most serious ones. The UPD faces the obvious objection that if you have no idea what reason God has for allowing evil, then for all you know there is no justifiable reason at all for an all-good God to permit it. And even if the FWD and SMT were successful, they would still leave much apparently gratuitious evil unexplained. As William Rowe points out, when a fawn burns to death in a forest fire and no human being ever knows about it, this apparently unnecessary evil neither preserves human free will nor builds the character of human beings.

-- Keith Augustine

Just curious as to your ideas about it.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Anyone who has been reading the other two threads in which this is discussed knows my beliefs as far as this is concerned, but I will say it once again for those not keeping up with the other threads...

I think that some suffering is so bad, especially when it comes to infants and small children, that there is no way a loving God would allow these things to happen. Therefore, I don't think God has the ability to control certain things... He is powerless to help in these situations.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Shan, I'd recommend you read or get the book-on-tape of Neal A. Maxwell's "All these things shall give thee experience..." I'm not saying you'd agree with everything he says, but he cuts to the core of the issue we're discussing, and does so intelligently and within a religious framework. He was an LDS apostle (until he died within the last few years), but his thoughts aren't just for LDS members. I think what he has to say applies to everyone who wonders why God allows some things to happen.

I understand why you believe what you believe. I'm not going to try to change your mind. As for me, I can't believe in a God with enough power to perform an infinite and eternal atonement, yet who can't stop a 5 year old from being beaten. To me they just don't seem compatible concepts. But as I said, I respect everyone's right to believe as they wish.

[shanstress70]

Shan, I'd recommend you read or get the book-on-tape of Neal A. Maxwell's "All these things shall give thee experience..." I'm not saying you'd agree with everything he says, but he cuts to the core of the issue we're discussing, and does so intelligently and within a religious framework. He was an LDS apostle (until he died within the last few years), but his thoughts aren't just for LDS members. I think what he has to say applies to everyone who wonders why God allows some things to happen.

I understand why you believe what you believe. I'm not going to try to change your mind. As for me, I can't believe in a God with enough power to perform an infinite and eternal atonement, yet who can't stop a 5 year old from being beaten. To me they just don't seem compatible concepts. But as I said, I respect everyone's right to believe as they wish.

I totally respect your beliefs, AK, and I understand what you're saying. Although, to me it's more plausible to believe that a loving God would not allow that to happen if He could stop it; therefore, He must not be able to... than to believe that He could stop it but chooses not to for some reason. I believe that He is more loving and caring toward children than that.

Thanks for the suggestion and I will check into that. I doubt my library has it, but I'll ask my LDS IL's if they do.

[Princess3dward]

I totally respect your beliefs, AK, and I understand what you're saying. Although, to me it's more plausible to believe that a loving God would not allow that to happen if He could stop it; therefore, He must not be able to... than to believe that He could stop it but chooses not to for some reason. I believe that He is more loving and caring toward children than that.

Thanks for the suggestion and I will check into that. I doubt my library has it, but I'll ask my LDS IL's if they do.

He doesn't "chose" not to in my opinion.

I believe that even mad things are for our own good...

That may sound bad... but in my experiance.. I believe that is true..

That is just what I think..

[Dr T]

... than to believe that He could stop it but chooses not to for some reason.

Is it conceivable that there is a greater/ultimate reason that justifies it?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

... than to believe that He could stop it but chooses not to for some reason.

Is it conceivable that there is a greater/ultimate reason that justifies it?

Thanks,

Dr. T

Hmmmm.....I think that is as absurd as the "Can God make a rock He can't lift" idea....

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Hmmmm.....I think that is as absurd as the "Can God make a rock He can't lift" idea....

Josh B)

I bet he could find a way... lol... and still have all power!

[JoshuaFKon]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hmmmm.....I think that is as absurd as the "Can God make a rock He can't lift" idea....

Josh B)

I bet he could find a way... lol... and still have all power!

Congratulations....you have found a new way to say "both"

Josh B)

[Brother Dorsey]

I think that some suffering is so bad, especially when it comes to infants and small children, that there is no way a loving God would allow these things to happen. Therefore, I don't think God has the ability to control certain things... He is powerless to help in these situations.

God does not "allow" anything evil to happen on this Earth......it just does, it has to....because If God were to stop evil ie: child molesters, murders, rapists etc. then he would be removing our free agency....the one thing he has given us so we can prove ourselves to him....unfortunately there are too many who blame God for these things...God did not do these things, God does not go around passing out diseases to people or telling others to harm others...he leaves us alone to prove ourselves to him, he has to, that was the deal and he doesn't go back on a deal. As mortal humans we have to believe that our mere existence on this Earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity and we are working and building up treasures in Heaven for the eternities....so in the Lords view, whats a few years of suffering for any person child or adult...Christ suffered all for us. I for one am thankful to the Lord for all the suffering I have done in my life....

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think that some suffering is so bad, especially when it comes to infants and small children, that there is no way a loving God would allow these things to happen. Therefore, I don't think God has the ability to control certain things... He is powerless to help in these situations.

God does not "allow" anything evil to happen on this Earth......it just does, it has to....because If God were to stop evil ie: child molesters, murders, rapists etc. then he would be removing our free agency....the one thing he has given us so we can prove ourselves to him....unfortunately there are too many who blame God for these things...God did not do these things, God does not go around passing out diseases to people or telling others to harm others...he leaves us alone to prove ourselves to him, he has to, that was the deal and he doesn't go back on a deal. As mortal humans we have to believe that our mere existence on this Earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity and we are working and building up treasures in Heaven for the eternities....so in the Lords view, whats a few years of suffering for any person child or adult...Christ suffered all for us. I for one am thankful to the Lord for all the suffering I have done in my life....

THAT WAS THE WORD I WAS LOOKING FOR! AGENCY!

Thank you Brother Dorsey.

[Dr T]

Hey Josh,

You don't this it is possible to "have a justifiable reason?" Bro D used the free will defense. That could be one.

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

Hey Josh,

You don't this it is possible to "have a justifiable reason?" Bro D used the free will defense. That could be one.

Dr. T

I was saying the evil is not "for some higher purpose." That is illogical.

There are three common explanations for Evil in the World

(1) Because there is evil in the world, God cannot exist.

I feel this is illogical because there is reason to believe that God does exist.

(2) "God's ways are higher than our ways" - There is a hidden, beneficial reason for evil.

I feel this is illogical because it just clearly is. What possible benefit could come from some horrible event? And isn't there a more humane way the goal could be reached?

(3) Evil is a un-fortunate by-product of our free will.

I agree with number three.

Josh B)

[Dr T]

What if free will is a requirement for salvation. Free will, as you said, allows for evil. Some evil vs. eternal salvation. Not justifiable?

[JoshuaFKon]

What if free will is a requirement for salvation. Free will, as you said, allows for evil. Some evil vs. eternal salvation. Not justifiable?

Whether or not it is justifiable is on God's conscience. (strange thought)

My point is, Evil would not be justifiable to "teach" us something, or "to help us grow"

Not that nothing could ever justifiy it...

Josh B)

[Dr T]

I feel comfortable with that. :)

[Princess3dward]

(2) "God's ways are higher than our ways" - There is a hidden, beneficial reason for evil.

I feel this is illogical because it just clearly is. What possible benefit could come from some horrible event? And isn't there a more humane way the goal could be reached?

I disagree with this because the bad things that happened in my life helped me realize how much I need the gospel.

[JoshuaFKon]

<div class='quotemain'>

(2) "God's ways are higher than our ways" - There is a hidden, beneficial reason for evil.

I feel this is illogical because it just clearly is. What possible benefit could come from some horrible event? And isn't there a more humane way the goal could be reached?

I disagree with this because the bad things that happened in my life helped me realize how much I need the gospel.

I'm not saying good can't come out of bad things...but can't you think of a better way you might "realize how much you need the gospel?"

Josh B)

[Traveler]

There is a question as to why G-d allows evil. First off, evil is not allowed in the everlasting habitation of G-d the Father. All that is evil is expelled from his presents. Because evil must exist for there to be good, G-d has provided a place for evil and those that embrace evil to habitat.

In the Eden epoch we learn that to become a G-d (or like G-d) one must obtain a knowledge of good and evil. Since evil is not allowed where G-d the Father is; a place was provided where a knowledge of good and evil could be obtained. In order for man to be in that place where a knowledge of good and evil could be obtained man had to experience a fall from the habitation of G-d the Father.

Once we (men and women) have gained an knowledge of good and evil by experience we then are able to choose which we prefer. Those that prefer good - demonstrated by loyalty to G-d commandments, covenants, and ordinances are rewarded good through the atonement of Christ. Those that prefer something other than good - demonstrated by lack of loyalty are belief in the necessity of commandments, covenants and ordinances are allowed their choice through the atonement of Christ.

In this life pain and suffering are way overrated. This is but a moment and those that suffer in a manner similar to the suffering of Christ and seek not their will - shall learn to be like G-d.

The Traveler

[shanstress70]

In this life pain and suffering are way overrated.

I see what you're saying with most of your post, but you lost me here...

Tell that to a child who is tortured and buried alive, or a parent of that child.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

In this life pain and suffering are way overrated.

I see what you're saying with most of your post, but you lost me here...

Tell that to a child who is tortured and buried alive, or a parent of that child.

Let me try to put it this way.

If all of us suffered excruciating pain every day of our mortal lives...

... it would only be a moment... a very brief moment... in the scope of our eternal lives.

Now, granted, I don't like pain... and I don't even like it a little bit...

... but I'd suffer every day if it meant I would grow to be more and more and more like God.

:)

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

In this life pain and suffering are way overrated.

I see what you're saying with most of your post, but you lost me here...

Tell that to a child who is tortured and buried alive, or a parent of that child.

If we think of the age of the universe - 12 to 15 billion years and think of this in terms of distance - or a foot = 1,000 years then you could think of your age since the universe existed as a some where in the 700 miles range or the distance from Salt Lake City to LA. The average life of a person on mortal earth and able to suffer is just over 1 1/2 inch. If you were driving from SLC to LA and for the time it took you to travel about 1/2 inch you suffered the worse pain possible for that time - how bad could it be?

Shakespear once wrote "Nothing is as good or as bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so."

I agree that the pain and suffering caused by evil is not a wonderful thing. The point is simple - regardless of how bad you can think or make the pain - it will pass and through the atonement of Christ there will be healing - a complete healing. No one that does not choose evil will suffer pain beyond our mortal probation. But those that choose evil will suffer the pain of that child tortured and buried alive and the parent beyond this life - It is my understanding that in this life the pain is nothing to be comparied to the suffering after this life. But we tend to not care about that.

The Traveler