Evidence to support The Book of Mormon?

[LDSCubsFan]

Is there evidence to support the Book of Mormon? I recall reading about elephants in the Americas, and this being attributed by some to mean wooly mammoths. The BOM talks about all these wars between the Nephites and Laminites, resulting in thousands upon thousands of people getting killed. Is there archaeological evidence to support these wars? You'd think there'd be helmets, shields, swords, etc. found. I am just looking to strenghten my belief in the BOM.

[livy111us]

The August 2007 issue of National Geographic has a very interesting article on the Maya called "The Maya Glory and Ruin." (pages 68-109) The article consists of three parts and has some beautiful photos. According to the article, in recent years our ability to decipher some of the Mayan glyphs and writings has improved. The article talks about some of this newly understood information.

According to National Geographic, in the January of 378 A.D. a warlord named Fire is Born is recorded as having arrived among the Maya in the city of Waka. He was sent from Teotihuacan (north of the Maya lands). He was a foreign envoy from the great powerful civilization to the north. He is mentioned in many of the carvings left by the Maya after 378 A.D. It seems that his arrival coincided with a significant change in the Maya civilization. He did this by taking over, with his soldiers, a number of Mayan cities and managed to somehow bring a bunch of individual city-states together into a unified civilization. The previous rulers were sacrificed, and their monuments and records were all destroyed. Fire is Born’s plan was to conquer Mayan cities and eliminate rivals. After taking over the first cities, he raised more troops to take over the rest. He wiped out the old rulers and initiated a new era of civilization among the Maya.

I found the date 378 A.D. intriguing. I wondered what the Book of Mormon recorded as happening at that time, since it is very near the time that the Nephite civilization was about to be completely obliterated. Here is what I found. According to the Book of Mormon, in the period of 364 to 375 A.D., Mormon notes battles between the “Lamanites” and the “Nephites” in which they were somewhat evenly matched. The Lamanites won battles and the Nephites won battles, but neither group seemed to be on the verge of wiping the other out. Now, check out what happens in the year 375 A.D. – Mormon 4:16-18

“And the Lamanites did not come again against the Nephites until the three hundred and seventy and fifth year. And in this year they did come down against the Nephites with all their powers; and they were not numbered because of the greatness of their number. And from this time forth did the Nephites gain no power over the Lamanites, but began to be swept off by them even as a dew before the sun.”

It seems that the year 375 A.D. was the real beginning of the end for the Nephites. There’s a bit more. Here’s what National Geographic says:

“But the most poignant testimony to [Fire is Born’s] empire-building comes from Uaxactun, just 12 miles from Tikal. There a mural shows a Maya nobleman giving homage to a warrior in Teotihuacan regalia—perhaps one of Fire is Born’s troops. A stela depicting a similar warrior guards a tomb where archaeologists found the remains of two women, one pregnant, a child and an infant. Freidel and others have concluded that these were the remains of Uaxactun’s royal family, slain by Tikal’s forces. The king, presumably, was taken to Tikal and sacrificed there.”

Fire is Born sacrificed the women and children of the royal families of the cities that he took over. So what does the Book of Mormon say? If we read further in Mormon 21-22:

“And when they had come the second time, the Nephites were driven and slaughtered with an exceedingly great slaughter; their women and their children were again sacrificed unto idols. And it came to pass that the Nephites did again flee from before them, taking all the inhabitants with them, both in towns and villages.”

According to the Book of Mormon, during the period of 375 A.D. to 380 A.D., Mormon decided to once again lead the Nephites in battle. He had sworn that he would not do so again, but he could see that they were in big trouble. Here’s the situation in the Book of Mormon in 379 A.D. (Mormon 5:5):

“But it came to pass that whatsoever lands we had passed by, and the inhabitants thereof were not gathered in, were destroyed by the Lamanites, and their towns, and villages, and cities were burned with fire; and thus three hundred and seventy and nine years passed away.”

The Lamanites were on a rampage, destroying everything that existed before. It was the end of civilization as the Nephites knew it. A new civilization was going to replace them.

National Geographic states:

“Fire is Born appears to have dropped whatever pretense he had assumed as a goodwill ambassador. His forces destroyed most of Tikal’s existing monuments—stelae put in place by 14 earlier rulers of Tikal. A new era had begun, and later monuments celebrated the victors.”

[livy111us]

There is plenty of evidence of warfare and armor in Mesoamerica:

Book of Mormon/Warfare - FAIRMormon

[livy111us]

Here are some short videos of scholars on this subject:

[applepansy]

The replies you've received so far are interesting sources. I always find it interesting to read of instances where science or archaeology finally catches up to what we already know. But all the worldly evidence we can find won't strengthen your belief in the Book of Mormon. Often when people start looking for physical evidence to support their testimony its the second step to doubting the spiritual knowledge they may have received when they put Moroni's promise to the test.

Doubts come from Satan. When I've had doubts I found it helpful to doubt my doubts... to ask myself "where are the doubts coming from?" More often than not its Satan looking for a crack in my testimony.

[Jason_J]

This should also be helpful:

Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidence: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility

"Book of Mormon Evidences discusses some of the factors that suggest the Book of Mormon may be an ancient document. Contrary to the claims of our critics, there are impressive findings that make it difficult to explain away the Book of Mormon as a nineteenth-century fraud from Joseph Smith. Such evidence is not "proof" but represents indications of plausibility that demand further attention."

[Jason_J]

Oh also, I just received the book "Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon" in the mail today. It looks really good!

"Let the Book of Mormon change your life, again, as you investigate Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon. Exhaustively researched, this full-color revised edition of the bestselling book now includes many developments and discoveries of the last twenty years on the subject of Mesoamerica. The correlation of the Stela 31 engraved stone at Tikal as it relates to the decisive battle at Cumorah. A comparison of the Maya name Mormon with the Nahuatl name Tehuatepec. The discovery of the name of the Jaredite King Kish on an ancient stone tablet that also includes his birth date and place of birth. A comparison of written languages and two high civilizations of Mesoamerica with the languages and civilizations of the Nephites and Jaredites. And much, much more. Illustrated with numerous photographs and more than 140 maps that correlate Book of Mormon sites with current Mesoamerican geography, Exploring the Lands of the Book of Mormon uncovers new evidences and thought-provoking hypotheses that contribute to our understanding of the setting in which the Book of Mormon might have taken place."

[Madriglace]

Its there ... but you have to have a testimony of the book or you won't even recognize it.

[RMGuy]

Confirmation bias is an interesting topic.

Individuals with testimonies of the book see evidence.

Detractors see no evidence.

The only difference is that which the book itself says, "and by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things."

-RM

[Vort]

Confirmation bias is an interesting topic.

Individuals with testimonies of the book see evidence.

Detractors see no evidence.

The only difference is that which the book itself says, "and by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things."

This is a good point. Confirmation bias is real, but IMO is not at all the same thing as the witness of the Holy Ghost.

[skalenfehl]

There is evidence all over mesoamerica including Izapa stella 5 where the probable landing of Lehi's family occurred. There are evidences of countless mounds in the US plains where Captain Moroni caused cities to be fortified with works of timber. And there are many underwater pyramids, roads and structures buried around the Carribbean Sea and Islands where many cities, which I believe were the cities buried at Christ's death in the land of Nephi and round about. I've studied the Book of Mormon in depth for two decades, but in all of my research, nothing has strengthened my testimony more than reading about the plain and precious things, which the prophets from Nephi to Moroni shared specifically for us.

No amount of evidence or proof is enough for man. It is the power of the Spirit that fortifies your testimony and your relationship with the Lord. I know this for a fact. And I testify that the Book of Mormon is true and written by prophets of the Lord for our day and until we read it prayerfully over and over again, we as a church will still be under condemnation as the early saints were. Consider 3 Nephi 26:9-11 and ponder why it is that we still do not have the sealed portion. While you're at it, make sure you know who it is that is saying these words at the time. There can be no greater witness than His...except that of the Holy Ghost.

[clevermoniker]

Testimony or not, there is plenty of evidence supporting it. It's actually a favorite topic of mine. If you're interested, do a search on Father Crespi and see the kinds of artifacts he was given. These even led to an actual expedition searching for a long lost "Metal library" containing books with information written on metal plates, all existing in a hidden cave...

[Guest]

What is your favorite part of the Book of Mormon, LDSCubsfan?

[LDSCubsFan]

What is your favorite part of the Book of Mormon, LDSCubsfan?

I like 3 Nephi, especially the part when Jesus Christ visits the Americas. Question, though: The church only holds that he visited the Americas, correct? It is unknown whether it was North, central, or South?

[Guest]

I don't remember a specific mention of geography. What do you like about that part?

[LDSCubsFan]

I don't remember a specific mention of geography. What do you like about that part?

This is starting to sound like a test, especially in light of your statement on a previous thread. I like the way he dropped down out of the sky. I like the way people were in awe, and most people were righteous after his visit, until a few (many) years after he left some of them began to get wicked again. There are messages in that.

[Guest]

There are. I think society today could learn from that. They lost their faithfulness in a short time, probably by wandering from the path a little here and a little there. IT's sad that they had so much and sold it for a mess of pottage, as it were. And it's sad that we do the same thing.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Eowyn
typo

[clevermoniker]

I like 3 Nephi, especially the part when Jesus Christ visits the Americas. Question, though: The church only holds that he visited the Americas, correct? It is unknown whether it was North, central, or South?

The Church holds that Jesus visited ALL of this people. That has not necessarily been clarified further.

[skalenfehl]

Read 3 Nephi 15 and 16. But here yo go:

3 Nephi 15

11 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen:

12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.

13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

Now compare to John 10 in the Bible.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And now to answer your question:

3 Nephi 16

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

Incidentally, when Christ visited the Nephites in the land Bountiful in America, Bountiful was the Nephite land in North America whereas the land of Nephi and the land of their "first inheritance" south of the narrow neck of land, in what is today known as the Panama area where the Mayan pyramids are.

Edited February 26, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Dravin]

This is starting to sound like a test, especially in light of your statement on a previous thread. I like the way he dropped down out of the sky. I like the way people were in awe, and most people were righteous after his visit, until a few (many) years after he left some of them began to get wicked again. There are messages in that.

The price cycle (as it's called in LDS circles) is a central theme in the Book of Mormon.

It basically goes:

I think the most interesting aspect of this message to be found in the Book of Mormon is not so much how it applies to peoples (though that is certainly and important and interesting aspect) but how it can be applied to each of us. I know I've noticed the cycle in various spots in my life.

[uniderth]

This is a good post I've found. I don't know if we're allowed to post links to blogs. So if the link gets removed just PM me and I'll send it to you.

Best Evidence for the Book of Mormon

The Nephite civilization was not in Mesoamerica but was in north America.

One of the reasons I believe for a "lack" of physical evidence is that the Book of Mormon is a trial of our faith. That is it's purpose. If we will be faithful to the things we read in the Book of Mormon then we will receive a record of the Greater Things.

[skalenfehl]

Excellent. I also have a ton of notes and research to support this. The lands bountiful and desolation were in the US while the lands Nephi and Zarahemla were in MesoAmerica. Other references to Google:

1. Lost city found beneath Cuban waters

2. Andros Platform

3. The Bimini Road

4. The Carribbean Tectonic Plate (I like this one)

5. American Mound Builders (Sounds like busy Nephites building "many new cities" and forts under Captain Moroni up north in Alma 49 and 50)

[skalenfehl]

Here is just a sampling of my notes. I believe that Lehi landed at the Isthmus of Darien, their first inheritance. I do not believe they were alone as there had already been Jaredites in both the North Land and the South Land before poisonous serpents cut off their route as we read in Ether. I do believe there were already some people there and they mingled with Lehi and his family. Then Nephi goes north with his family "and all those who would follow" for many days and settle what is then called the Land of Nephi. Then they discover Zarahemla, both societies mix, also having had influence by the last Jaredite soldier, Coriantumr, who lived about nine months with them after having been found by Limhi. This was plenty of time to beget children. (Jaredite men seemed to beget children in their old age often and they lived longer than Nephites seem to have).

Zarahemla was down from the land of Nephi in elevation but to the north of the land of Nephi was the narrow neck of land, which I believe was Florida that led to the land northward and all the states up to New York where the Hill Ramah/Cumorah lay. After the Anti-Nephi-Lehis inherited Jershon, the Amlicites began recruiting numerous and seemingly endless number of Lamanites to attack the Nephites for their hatred of the the Anti-Nephi-Lehies. So while Ammon and his brethren are conducting church business in Zarahemla and Jershon way down south, etc, Captain Moroni and Helaman find themselves involved in a new campaign. A war between the Nephites and Lamanites.

Captain Moroni begins taking countless armies (their families, too) and migrating and battling, building cities. Lots and lots of cities fortified by throwing up huge mounds of earth and fortifying them with timbers. These cities were north of the narrow neck of land, being Florida. The capital of this land was Bountiful and is where Christ appeared to the Nephites. The mound cities are not the same as the pyramid cities down south in the land of Nephi or the land of their first inheritance, all being MesoAmerica. When Christ descended to Bountiful, he named a whole bunch of cities in the land of Nephi down south that were buried under water. After this time, the Land of Nephi was no longer mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Why? It wasn't there anymore. Now here's another kicker. As the Book of Mormon comes to a conclusion, we read that Mormon was carried by his father Mormon down to the land "southward", which was Zarahemla when he was 11 years old and he noted that the entire land down there was covered with buildings and that the people were as numerous as the sea. This is noteworthy to me because we know mesoamerica is filled with all those pyramids and buidings, which obviously did not exist up north in the land Bountiful where all the mound cities were. And since the narrow neck of land came to a dead end, the Land of Nephi not being there anymore (which I strongly believe comprises the entire Carribean Sea/Carribean islands region, Mormon went the long way around "round about" as we sometimes have read. So they traveled down and around what is the Mexico region.

Throughout the wars, we read that the wars only took place during certain months and I believe they were in the warm months and not the cold months, though this isn't specific, but still based on their recollection of time based on their heritage from Jerusalem. There's data to back it up. Anyway, Nephites and Lamanites were warring and warring from city to city, town to town. We read that Jordan was one of those towns in Mormon 5. They all kept traveling northward again. These battles were taking months and years and years. Mormon finally is granted by the captain of the Lamanites to give him battle in the land of Cumorah where there are many waters, rivers and fountains. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the same Cumorah/Ramah by the great lakes, finger lakes, etc, all known as Ripliancum. The hill Cumorah where Moroni deposits the plates after having made a stone box, which Joseph Smith describes as having stones put together with some strange cement, is the same Cumorah where Mormon and his 10 thousand, Moroni and his ten thousand and about a dozen other Nephite Captains and their ten thousand soldiers and their families battled who knows how many more tens or hundreds of thousands of Lamanites.

So to summarize, in my humble opinion and really, it doesn't matter to me how accurate it is, if at all, my description is how it happened, considering how lands were changed, cities buried by mountains, waters, etc at Christ's coming, changing the entire face of the land Northward (the US) and the land Southward (Carribbean Sea/Islands region, Panama area, etc, being the land of Lehi's first inheritance. Now get on Google Maps and type in Carribbean Sea and do a search on buried pyramids in the waters off of Cuba. There are also buried roads, buildings etc. also Google Bimini road. Keep in mind the names of all the cities buried by water when Christ died from 3 Nephi 9: Cities of Moroni, Onihah, Mocum, Jerusalem, etc. and many more cities were covered by earth or burned. So MesoAmerica experienced the greatest changes. Interesting all the cities named that we never heard of until this chapter. Anyway, There's no doubt in my mind that Joseph Smith was right when he said that the Book of Mormon about God's dealings with the "ancient inhabitants of the Americas". In my mind, that means plural as in what Joseph understood to be North AND South America and that the Lamanites are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians" and they were all over North America from the Rocky Mountains to the plains to the Eastern States. Even down through Mexico, Central and South America.

Anyway, hope I didn't beat a dead horse and really, it doesn't matter to me the scale or size of the cities, lands and countries of the inhabitants. But I am confident of two things. Today's American Continent, north and south is not the same as pre-Christ's visit to the American Continent as it is not the same pre-Noah's flood continent. But I do believe that there is and always one hill Cumorah, which is a geographical anchor for me, as is Lehi's first landing site. From there, everything falls into place in whatever direction and scope it happened.

Helaman 3

3 And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land. (Did they travel up through the land of Nephi before it was buried in the deep and up through Florida or did they go "round about" up through Mexico, Texas, etc?)

4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.

5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land. (What inhabitants? Oh, yeah, the Jaredites! The land Desolation with all the bones and weapons cankered with rust, etc, up where the hill Ramah lies that is the same hill as Cumorah)

6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.

7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell. (Seems the Jaredites used up a lot of natural resources, well except maybe mud. Could the cement houses be the same cement that Moroni used to fuse the stone box that contained the plates? Maybe some kind of mud/clay/water mixture? Mud clay has been used since the time of the Egyptians who used mud clay. Adobe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Very susceptible to earthquakes, though, and easily destroyed by them. Could explain their disappearance when Christ died and the land shook violently.)

8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east. (This verse is what separates the plausible geography from the many implausible versions that I've studied in the last twenty years. They covered the whole face of the earth from the Pacific to the Atlantic. Study all references to Sea East, Sea West, Sea South and Sea North. I believe the Gulf of Mexico is a huge part of this, which was a Sea in and of itself when the narrow neck of land, being Florida, still connected the land of Nephi, being the entire area that is the Carribean.)

9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of shipping. (We never hear about shipping except with Hagoth, so they did have ships and used them, either to travel along the Pacific, the Atlantic, or maybe, just maybe via the Gulf of Mexico, which was the sea that divided the land North and South? Ether 10:20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land. There may be more references to this, but notice that it is the sea that is dividing the land).

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement. (So it makes sense that in the land south, being MesoAmerica, were all the large buildings/pyramids that Mormon saw as a child as opposed to the buildings up north made of cement, timber, etc.)

Anyway, these are my ramblings. From 600 BC until Christ's visit, the Land of Nephi is mentioned dozens of times (Alma 47:20 is the only scripture to mention a City of Nephi, being the chief city in the land of Nephi, so it was basically the "state capitol") and I do believe the people in the land of Nephi had one or two BIG chances to repent before it was too late. After Christ's visit through 421 AD when Moroni seals up the plates, there's no more mention of or reference to the Land of Nephi.

[skalenfehl]

I just finished a rough sketch. I believe this is how the Americas looked before Christ's death, which changed the land completely. The locations are approximate because I'm not done with my own studies and and not done compiling all my personal data. This will make my previous post easier to visualize.

Edit: Here are a couple critical scriptures that make this map work in my opinion. If a Nephite can cross Florida in a day and a half, how fast can an army of motivated Nephites and Lamanites move up and around the lands Bountiful and Desolation and up toward Cumorah? And what if they used horses?

Alma 22:32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

Helaman 3:8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

Edited February 27, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Traveler]

There is a preponderance of evidence that the Book of Mormon is accurate. Those that criticize the Book of Mormon do so in ignorance and over time there have been more evidence to support claims in the Book of Mormon than support the claims of the critics.

For example: When the Book of Mormon was published it was not believed that there existed anywhere in the Americas great civilizations with large cities of hundreds of thousands that simply disappeared before the “white man” showed up.

Is it so impossible that basic teachings of Christ existed among the “savage” Native Americans?

That a benevolent G-d descended from heaven - appearing to the Native Americans and promised to “come again”? Here is a thought - the famed fountain of youth that was believed by many Spanish explores because of reports of individuals that had found the said fountain and had appeared to several over many hundreds of years? Is Jesus not such living waters - the very “fountain of youth” or eternal life? And did not the 3 Nephits appear to many over hundreds of years?

But beyond the Book of Mormon evidence in the Americas there is also a preponderance of evidence in the middle East the verifies and gives evidence to things published in the Book of Mormon that were not and could not have been known. I have over 100 specific points concerning the Arabian Peninsula

The Traveler