12%

[Winnie G]

After watching the news over the last couple days, I really want to ask people how many children must die before someone says its time, long pass due, save our children.

On The View this morning they talked about Gun control and the statistic that in the United States the death rate of children is 12 % higher then all industrial’s nations put together!

12 %, how high does it need to go too?

The difference was the other country’s have gun control.

By the way using the right to bear arms maybe a constructional right but were is it written that children have the right not to be that 12%?

There is something horribly wrong when the country of the United States cannot keep its children safe from gun toting Waco’s.

[LionHeart]

Yes, that is a very sad situation. The root of the problem lies in the values taught to the children. But since there will always be people who lack parenting skills, you will always have maniac dilinquents who want to shoot up everything. The trick then becomes keeping guns out of these people's hands. True, if these people want to kill someone bad enough, they will find a way. But a gun makes it so much easier. On the other hand, if anti gun laws are passed, then the law abiding citizens will relinquish their guns and leave the good guys defensless; because we all know that the criminals will get them on the black market. Then we will have a situation where the bad guys will have dominion over the good guys.

I would sure like to see us find a remedy to this dillemma.

L.H.

[Laureltree]

After watching the news over the last couple days, I really want to ask people how many children must die before someone says its time, long pass due, save our children.

On The View this morning they talked about Gun control and the statistic that in the United States the death rate of children is 12 % higher then all industrial’s nations put together!

12 %, how high does it need to go too?

The difference was the other country’s have gun control.

By the way using the right to bear arms maybe a constructional right but were is it written that children have the right not to be that 12%?

There is something horribly wrong when the country of the United States cannot keep its children safe from gun toting Waco’s.

Ok...I'm sorry but I've heard the nag on gun control and now is my two cents....If all of you knew the real truth about all of our guns, you wouldn't pass the act any ways....Gun control is for all of us....thats it.....

what about the cops who sell them, the drug lords who sell them, the gangs, the drug runners etc.....See what people don't get is that the goverment can only control so much, the sad thing is its mostly dealing with the innocent people. I would give up my two guns if they could promise to take away all the others....however that will never happen. There are two many guns each year hidden, sold, stolen, bought illegally, and brought in from other countries, until we can enforce those laws and cut down where its truly needed...I'm keeping my guns...

There are allot of facts missing and until they address them all............I'm all for guns.............

just my 2 cents winnie...sry...

LionHeart...

We as parents need to be in our childrens lives more, and know more of whats going on....Our children should be first... and if ...we raise them right, they learn to choose right.

There was a kid who was having bad feelings here, he was having the same thoughts....He went to his teacher and said he needed to talk to someone...we are teaching are children to ask for help, we still need to be there to watch and listen for them...

[Traveler]

After watching the news over the last couple days, I really want to ask people how many children must die before someone says its time, long pass due, save our children.

On The View this morning they talked about Gun control and the statistic that in the United States the death rate of children is 12 % higher then all industrial’s nations put together!

12 %, how high does it need to go too?

The difference was the other country’s have gun control.

By the way using the right to bear arms maybe a constructional right but were is it written that children have the right not to be that 12%?

There is something horribly wrong when the country of the United States cannot keep its children safe from gun toting Waco’s.

I have stated in the past that in 80% of the garages in this country I could make a gun that would kill somebody. I could also make weapons of other sorts. Most of the instructions for making such things can be found on the internet. With that said I would assert that guns are not the problem many think. I would submit that drugs kill far more children than guns. But guns are glorified in the news and drugs are downplayed.

Did you know that on average 300 children die every year trying their first cigarette? When was the last time you heard about that on the news?

How many of the children that die from guns come from single parent or welfare homes? I would point out that the USA has the highest number of single parent and welfare homes raising children. It is now over 50% of our children.

How many children that kill or get killed are in association with some drug - illegal or even legal Psych drug? Did you know that by federal mandate that if a child that was currently on legal Psych drugs or was on such drugs is involved in killing, that it is classified and cannot be published in the news? Wonder how the drug companies pulled that one off?

The truth is - this country really does not care about its next generation or providing any specific supports for biological families - which is the best way to raise and protect children. Even on this forum to suggest such ideas will get you labeled a bigot and homophobic.

When I grew up there was no gun control - guns were not banned from schools and no one ever heard about some nut case shooting children at schools. What has changed in our society in the last 40 years to create this problem?

The Traveler

BTW: With all the problems with guns, I have yet to hear about a single case where the problem was from someone with a concealed or carry permit. Not one case and there are hundreds of thousands of concealed and carry permits.

The Traveler

[Fiannan]

You know, if you want to stop a lot of deaths of young people the best thing you could do is make school districts financially responsible for bullying behavior. That's right, most school shooters have been victims of intense verbal and physical abuse from classmates.

most victims of such behavior just live with the abuse, others run away while a significant number takes their own lives (although a 14 year old boy who hangs himself to escape bullying will get no publicity while the same 14 year old who goes on a shooting rampage will).

American school culture is absolutely and categorically sick! Academically it is fine when compared to other industrial cultures but in terms of wellness it is sick. The social conformity promoted by our authoritarian culture and maintained by our school system's promotion of social castes and materialism is contrary to learning and psychological wellbeing. Then if some poor kid does go to a school and complain because she or he is getting harassed for being different the school officials (often washed up coaches who get an education degree over a couple of summers and then go administrative) think the kid needs to toughen up a bit. Of course they might do something if the victim is gay or an ethnic minority (don't want bad publicity for the school) but even then there is no garauntee.

Yes, I have a negative view of American education. I also have a negative view of simple solutions like banning trenchcoats or blaming Maralyn Manson music for violence. Guns are not the problem either. If you really want to reduce violence go after the rotten system of education in this country, sue the pants off school districts that refuse to protect kids and...well, I'll save my opinions for dealing with sterilizing drug addicted women later.

[LionHeart]

When I was in school, there was a girl who told my younger sister that she was going to bring a knife to school the next day and kill her. In light of this, my mother decided not to send her to school until things could be settled down. When the teacher got wind of this, she threatened to press charges against my mother for neglecting her child's education, even though she was aware of the death threats. My mother asked her: "Can you guarantee that my daughter will come home alive tomorrow?" The teacher said: "No." So my mother said: "Kay then, she will not go to school tomorrow." The teacher remained disgruntled over this but she survived.

But the thing that really bothers me is the fact that no disciplinary measures were taken. This girl was never searched upon arriving at school or even sent to the principal's office.

And sure enough, when we thought it was safe for my sister to return to school, she went to school and this dilinquent little future felon child had a knife and she chased my sister around the playground attempting to kill her. Fortunately my sister was able to exercise some diplomatic skills and escape an untimely demise; with no help from the school board.

So like what was mentioned earlier, our school systems have alot to be desired.

L.H.

[Laureltree]

The schools are part of it .....But what about the parents who teach there children to be so unkind, to bully, to put down, etc......The schools and the parents need to get there heads together period.....

There are a few who do there best and there kids still make wrong choices...however its those parents who truly try that make a difference and we need more of them.....We need a school that sets high discipline actions and keeps all parties safe.......They need to stop the bully's and stop the violence....But it will take them and the parents working together...

[prisonchaplain]

I hate to invoke Michael Moore's view into this discussion, but he actually said something very profound, in his movie "Bowling for Columbine." It's not gun control that makes America so violent, it's fear. We're afraid of our neighbors. Our media hypes violent crime so much ("If it bleeds it leads"), that we tend to think it's a truly cruel, mean world out there. All males over 18--especially if they're single, are probably out to get my little girl. All rough looking men are probably out to rob the gas station, grab single women in dark parking lots, etc.

The reality is quite different. Most crime rates are down, and the things we fear are very unlikely to happen. But, because we're afraid, we overreact, and this sometimes leads to death or wounds.

[Laureltree]

I'm impressed chaplin, very very well said

[Outshined]

I hate to invoke Michael Moore's view into this discussion, but he actually said something very profound, in his movie "Bowling for Columbine." It's not gun control that makes America so violent, it's fear. We're afraid of our neighbors. Our media hypes violent crime so much ("If it bleeds it leads"), that we tend to think it's a truly cruel, mean world out there. All males over 18--especially if they're single, are probably out to get my little girl. All rough looking men are probably out to rob the gas station, grab single women in dark parking lots, etc.

The reality is quite different. Most crime rates are down, and the things we fear are very unlikely to happen. But, because we're afraid, we overreact, and this sometimes leads to death or wounds.

Wow; very well put. That also illustrates why I was so bewildered by the news coverage about Iraq. The media coverage is so different from the reality there. New schools and hospitals are overlooked for every bad thing that happens. Bad news always gets the headlines.

[BenRaines]

I believe in practicing gun control. I only hit what I aim at. As a card carrying member of a concealed weapons permit and as an owner of several handguns, a shotgun and an AR-15, all for personal defense. I agree with Traveler, who I think is the one who said "That he knows of no CCW permit holder is committing these types of crimes.

By virtue of my training I never want to be a victim or have someone I care be a victim of these crazy people committing these crimes.

Ben Raines

[john doe]

I am with Ben on this one. I advocate the use of both hands on the gun so that total gun control can be achieved.

I have thought about getting a concealed-carry permit, but have not done so yet. It was pointed out to me that the 8 1/2 inch barrel on my .44 magnum would make it pretty hard to conceal anyway. Maybe I need a shorter gun?

[LionHeart]

Wow; very well put. That also illustrates why I was so bewildered by the news coverage about Iraq. The media coverage is so different from the reality there. New schools and hospitals are overlooked for every bad thing that happens. Bad news always gets the headlines.

"The evening news begins with the words 'Good evening.' They then proceed to tell you why it isn't.

[shanstress70]

Other factors cause the 12% increase, like Traveler said. Winnie you sd, "The difference was the other country’s have gun control." I would like to point out that there are many other differences as well. Perhaps a biggie would be materialism... parents in the US tend to work many hours so they can afford the biggest and best of everything. Many kids are glued to violent video games and TV and have practically no dialogue with their parents.

I'm with you, Laurel Tree... I'm not getting rid of my (DH's) guns! I can't imagine not being able to defend my family against an intruder. And no one should worry about my guns, as there is zero chance that my child can, or will be able to, get to them to take them to school. It's all about responsbility.

I used to travel a lot for my job before I settled down and started a family. I once had a very close call where a nutcase was chasing me through the courtyard at the hotel. I have never run so fast in my life! I barely made it to the door and got in and closed it before he reached it and was pushing on it trying to get in. That was the most frightened I've ever been and I told myself that if I ever started traveling alone again, I would get a concealed carrying permit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with defending yourself. And like others have said, you don't have to worry about people with permits because bad guys don't bother to get certified!

Side note: Traveler, you said, "The truth is - this country really does not care about its next generation or providing any specific supports for biological families - which is the best way to raise and protect children. Even on this forum to suggest such ideas will get you labeled a bigot and homophobic."

I would like to say that I agree with you on most of this. The only arguments I've had in the past about this is that IF there is no chance of a child being with a mother and father, and the child would be in foster care forever anyway, to me an acceptable alternative is to live with a single parent or even a STABLE homosexual couple. Just wanted to clear that up IN CASE you were talking about me.

[pushka]

Hehe Shan, he could be talking about me too, for the same reasons...sorry Trav!

[Dror]

Ok, I'm going to do something that'll really piss off the radical conservatives--quote the U.S. Constitution!!

One thing the NRA hype-types seem to forget is that the Constitution does not guarantee a completely unregulated right to bear arms. Rather, the right to bear arms is within the context of a "well-regulated militia."

Amendment II

A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

In other words, members of the "militia" (National Guard) have the right to bear arms, but they are by no means unregulated, unsupervised, or uncontrolled.

Having said that, there are other countries (such as Canada) where lots of people own guns, but that have much lower rates of "death by gun" than we do in the U.S. Maybe it's partly a cultural thing. Maybe it's partly that they have at least some form of gun control in the form of licensure, background checks, etc. To me, such measures to prevent violent death seem only sensible--and perfectly constitutional.

Dror

[BenRaines]

Maybe I am missing something here but the guns I own are all registered with the State of Nevada. Can't legally purchase one here without it. Every time I bought one before my CCW I paid $25 for a background check and could not pick it up until done. I can't sell them unless I notify the state and the same is done to the buyer. Sounds pretty regulated to me.

Also most of the shootings I read about in the news are not by people who would be considered normal.

By the way. I am very conservative. Don't know if that makes me a right-wing conservative but very conservative.

Ben Raines

[Dror]

Maybe I am missing something here but the guns I own are all registered with the State of Nevada. Can't legally purchase one here without it. Every time I bought one before my CCW I paid $25 for a background check and could not pick it up until done. I can't sell them unless I notify the state and the same is done to the buyer. Sounds pretty regulated to me.

Also most of the shootings I read about in the news are not by people who would be considered normal.

By the way. I am very conservative. Don't know if that makes me a right-wing conservative but very conservative.

Ben Raines

Ben,

Please forgive my ignorance, but is it the same in all the states, or do different states have different laws? Also, what does CCW mean?

In any case, I am not arguing against gun ownership. Most people who own and use guns do so in a responsible manner, and I have no problem with that. Mainly I was just reacting to the moaning and groaning I so often hear from the NRA types about having any kind of gun control at all, including having to register guns and get background checks. I just don't get it--what harm could there possibly be in checking to be sure the person you're selling a gun to is not a criminal?!? Nor would I be against some kind of age restrictions, such as not allowing children to own guns, or to operate them unless under direct adult supervision. Why can a 10-year-old shoot a rifle but not drive a car? I'm tired of hearing, when I get my driver's license renewed, that driving is a "privilege, but not a right" (as if the government is doing me some huge favor by allowing me to drive). But owning and shooting a gun without regulation is an absolute right?

Anyway, Ben, I'm sure you personally are very reasonable and safe. As I said, I'm just reacting in a general fashion to the extremists.

Dror

P.S. It's ok that you're conservative--I love you, anyway! B)

[Winnie G]

Other countries (such as Canada) where lots of people own guns, but that have much lower rates of "death by gun

Here is how it goes in Canada, hunting rifles are registered, but to own one you must attend a safety course and are tested in the use of your rifle done every five years.

My father in-law had four one for each son and him self, were they come from hunting is a staple for the families. (Moose)

Handguns are a whole other kettle of fish; you can own one only with background checks and a membership in a gun club. $$$$$$$$$$

Handguns are sent to the gun club not to you. It is kept and locked up there in less you change gun clubs i.e. Move etc. then it is forwarded on.

My husband had two side arms that were locked up at the MP station when we marred. I never saw them and he sold them after his last peacekeeping tour.

Guns that are used or found by the police are confiscated and destroyed.

Most legal guns are brought in to the country from the US and Mexico.

It is common knowledge that if you want a gun and have the money you can buy one off the street, but you pay dearly for them. You do not want to be caught with one it is a long prison term.

Canadians find it odd that the US would see this as un-constructional.

It is a safety issue that they except with out question. To them it is constitutional.

If you want to kill someone, there are many ways to do it. Its not like Canadians are not murdered, it happens and I have to say with a smirk with ways that really take time to think out.

That might be a factor when you think about it.

You do not have a gun hands on you have to think about it and that might be the reason.

You have to think more then twice.

[prisonchaplain]

Ok, I'm going to do something that'll really piss off the radical conservatives--quote the U.S. Constitution!!

At least you don't pretend to be objective.

One thing the NRA hype-types seem to forget is that the Constitution does not guarantee a completely unregulated right to bear arms. Rather, the right to bear arms is within the context of a "well-regulated militia."

Amendment II

A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

In other words, members of the "militia" (National Guard) have the right to bear arms, but they are by no means unregulated, unsupervised, or uncontrolled.

Your interpretation is neither new, nor legally binding. In other words, the courts have not ruled that way. They have have simply understood that rational for the people being allowed to keep and bear arms is that states need to have militias. So, the Constitution includes a history lesson--the rational behind the right. However, the rational does not limit the right. One could argue that state militias are one stated reason, but certainly not the only reason THAT citizens are allowed to keep and bear arms without infringement.

By the way: I don't even own a BB-gun.

[john doe]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of going down to my local gun club at 2 AM to borrow a firearm I already own, just to go back home and hope the intruder in my house hasn't already raped and/or killed my family members. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have my firearm close at hand where I can get to it in a hurry if need be. Maybe they don't have home invasions in Canada, but they occur here in the states all too often.

Let's be honest. There are a lot of unsavory characters out there, and if good, upstanding people don't defend themselves, the bad people will be happy to take advantage of those who wish to be pacifists.

[Dror]

If you want to kill someone, there are many ways to do it. Its not like Canadians are not murdered, it happens and I have to say with a smirk with ways that really take time to think out.

That might be a factor when you think about it.

You do not have a gun hands on you have to think about it and that might be the reason.

You have to think more then twice.

WinnieG, you're too funny! Do you write whodunnits?

Dror

Your interpretation is neither new, nor legally binding. In other words, the courts have not ruled that way. They have have simply understood that rational for the people being allowed to keep and bear arms is that states need to have militias. So, the Constitution includes a history lesson--the rational behind the right. However, the rational does not limit the right. One could argue that state militias are one stated reason, but certainly not the only reason THAT citizens are allowed to keep and bear arms without infringement.

PrisonChap,

How many times do I have to say it? *exasperated* Let me make this clear (though I thought I did so in my last post)--I do not have a problem with gun ownership. If people want to own guns, go hunting, do target practice, etc., that's fine with me (but shooting people is not kosher, eh?). I was merely explaining that there is a sound constitutional rationale for some amount of gun control, like licensing, background checks, etc. OK?!!

It is obvious that the 2nd Amendment has not been interpreted to mean only those in the National Guard can have guns. However, it could just as easily have been interpreted that way, given the wording. In any case, it does provide a legal basis for things like background checks, registration of guns, etc.--it has been interpreted that way, and this IS legally binding.

Dror

At least you don't pretend to be objective.

I've never met an "objective" person in my life. If you know of one, I'd be fascinated to meet her!

[Brother Dorsey]

Okay...I'm going to put in my two cents regarding this topic.....first of all, I do not own any guns, that is my choice, I have no reason to own one, I don't hunt and I can defend myself and my family without having to use a gun. I don't like guns, they don't scare me, I'm not frightened of them....it's the tiny percentages of nut cases who own them that scare me. That said....I have no problem with anyone else in this country owning a gun...as long as they are legally and emotionally responsible to do so. I believe in gun control to keep these weapons out of the hands of undesirables. What I am most fearful of in the country is the drug problem. I remember before 1970 you could leave your hose to go shopping and leave the front door open with the screen door closed to cool your house and you had no fear, you had no problem letting your kids walk to school by themselves and letting them stay outside after dark with the other neighborhood children was no problem also. No, it's not gun control we have to worry about, it's drugs. Satan has taken hold of the world and has made it unsafe for everyone. That's why as LDS we focus on our families, we make our homes a refuge from the world, a sanctuary where love abounds....where there is no fear, just love. The fight against crime begins at home...teach our children to choose what is right and they will not pick up a gun or knife or crack pipe.

[shanstress70]

I can defend myself and my family without having to use a gun.

Of course I totally respect anyone's decision NOT to own a gun just as much as I hope my choice TO own a gun is respected. But I'm curious... how can you defend yourself without a gun if an armed intruder breaks into your house?

Also, I don't want to sound like I'm against gun control... I'm all for background checks and waiting periods, registering, etc. But I totally agree with John Doe... how's owning a gun going to help me if it's locked up at the gun club when someone breaks into my home and tries to harm my family?

[Brother Dorsey]

Of course I totally respect anyone's decision NOT to own a gun just as much as I hope my choice TO own a gun is respected. But I'm curious... how can you defend yourself without a gun if an armed intruder breaks into your house?

LOL...I'll answer your question with a question....why would an armed intruder break into my home? Actually, I am not afraid that would happen because the chances of that happening are so minute that I feel I would still not need a weapon like a gun. Besides, if I heard a noise I would have to take the time to get the gun off the top shelf of my closet, unlock the trigger lock (after finding the key) and then go to the desk drawer and load the gun....so I figure by that time I, myself and family are already dead.....or do you think keeping a loaded weapon around the house is a good idea when you have kids? Hmmmm.....I could see it now, a noise wakes me.....I grab my loaded gun, still half asleep quietly walk downstairs and there coming in the back door I see him, I aim and shoot...once, twice, three times....the intruder goes down....I take a breath and turn on the lights to see I have just killed my daughter who was just letting her dog out to pee. OR perhaps I do confront an intruder who has a gun....and he kills me first. NOPE, a really good loud alarm with do much better than a loaded gun....see my point?

To answer your question....to know that the intruder was armed I would have to see him, in other words by that time it's too late...besides if I knew there was someone breaking into my home, the first thing I'd do was call 911...the second was to yell at the top of my lungs "I KNOW YOU'RE THERE, MY SHOTGUN IS LOADED AND I'M COMING TO BLOW YOUR HEAD OFF"....You think they'll stick around gun or not?