2nd Article of Faith

[pam]

There have been many investigators using this website to get some basic doctrinal information about the Church. Each week I will post an Article of Faith so that the discussion of each can be done. Keep in mind..this is based on LDS doctrine and debating of that will not be tolerated.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

[Traveler]

There have been many investigators using this website to get some basic doctrinal information about the Church. Each week I will post an Article of Faith so that the discussion of each can be done. Keep in mind..this is based on LDS doctrine and debating of that will not be tolerated.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

I believe that the articles of faith are so worded to distinguish LDS from other religions that may be considered similar. In essence many religions that depend on the Bible for doctrine tout a “just” G-d but then imply that man lives in mortality specifically as punishment for Adam’s transgression.

The Traveler

[Maygraceabound]

There have been many investigators using this website to get some basic doctrinal information about the Church. Each week I will post an Article of Faith so that the discussion of each can be done. Keep in mind..this is based on LDS doctrine and debating of that will not be tolerated.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

So Jesus and the transgressor both are punished for the same sin. Aahh OK.

PS I will not debate this. I will not debate this. Clicking my heels. I will not debate this.

[Maygraceabound]

So Jesus and the transgressor both are punished for the same sin. Aahh OK.

PS I will not debate this. I will not debate this. Clicking my heels. I will not debate this.

By the way the penalty for sin is death. Rom 6:23

[Dove]

By the way the penalty for sin is death. Rom 6:23

Hello, Maygraceabound;

Thanks for your input and questions.

The Book of Mormon teaches that there are two kinds of death which Christ overcame through his atonement; physical and spiritual death~

Physical death means the spirit leaving the body. Through the death and resurrection of Christ, all of us born here on earth will be redeemed from this physical death and be resurrected to our physical bodies; albeit, at the time of our physical resurrection, our physical body will be "perfected." Meaning, no more illness or weakness in the physical body....

Spiritual death signifies not being in the presence of God, our Eternal Father, or His Son Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit, because of the transgression of Adam. (Adam was cast out of God's presence in the Garden of Eden because he transgressed and partook of the forbidden fruit, thus introducing sin and death, as well as knowledge, to man.) Through Christ's sufferings for our sins in Gethsemane and on the cross, we are given the opportunity to overcome spiritual death by repenting, being baptized and keeping the baptismal covenant through obedience to God's commandments. Because we will continue to fall short of keeping the commandments perfectly, the atonement allows us to also continue to repent and continue striving to keep the commandments.

I believe it is because of the atonement of Jesus Christ that we are not "punished for Adam's transgression." Also, if we sincerely seek to repent and follow God's will for us throughout our lifetime, i.e, enduring to the end, we will not have to go through a "punishment" to truly repent of our sins.

Here are some scriptures from the Book of Mormon that may help you to understand our beliefs on this a little more;

2 Nephi: Chapter 9 (starts on page 72)

Alma 11:21 through Alma 13: 13

These are just a couple of passages of scriptures that speak on this topic....

I am curious as to what you believe. However, if you would like to enter into a discussion about this, I would appreciate you at least taking the time to read these Book of Mormon passages so as to understand more what we believe. Also, if you can give me passages from the Bible that support your beliefs and "come from," that would be very helpful to me in understanding your beliefs more.

Thanks

Dove

Edited March 25, 2012 by Dove

[Just_A_Guy]

One of the things I think we miss because of the way we tend to study each AoF in isolation, is the way many of them specifically build on earlier articles of faith. For example, the 2nd AoF sets up the presumption that we will be punished. The 3rd AoF tells us how we may be saved from this punishment--through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The 4th AoF tells us what those ordinances are. The 5th AoF tells us who may perform those ordinances. And so on.

[Dravin]

One of the things I think we miss because of the way we tend to study each AoF in isolation, is the way many of them specifically build on earlier articles of faith. For example, the 2nd AoF sets up the presumption that we will be punished. The 3rd AoF tells us how we may be saved from this punishment--through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The 4th AoF tells us what those ordinances are. The 5th AoF tells us who may perform those ordinances. And so on.

Also they are quick bullet points about what we believe, they don't claim to contain all the nuances and implications of doctrine. It's like if you asked a mathematics professor to give you a quick overview of Calculus. He'd mention differentiation and a couple uses, integration and a couple uses but he wouldn't necessarily go into L'Hôpital's rule and improper integrals right then and there. So with that in mind the 2nd Article of Faith is essentially to point out that we don't believe we carry a stain of sin from Adam. It is not a statement that Christ cannot or will not take upon himself the consequences of sin, which as you point out is answered by the next article of faith.

JAG, I appreciate you insight into the building up way in which the AoF are constructed, I've never looked at them like that before.

[Seminarysnoozer]

One of the things I think we miss because of the way we tend to study each AoF in isolation, is the way many of them specifically build on earlier articles of faith. For example, the 2nd AoF sets up the presumption that we will be punished. The 3rd AoF tells us how we may be saved from this punishment--through the Atonement of Christ, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. The 4th AoF tells us what those ordinances are. The 5th AoF tells us who may perform those ordinances. And so on.

This is a good point. One of the things that it does point out, though, in isolation is the fact that we won't be punished for Adam's transgression and I am assuming all the things that are brought on by that transgression. For example, a corrupted body and it's influences.

When the apostles fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane it was made clear that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We will be judged and punished according to our spiritual decisions but God will take that within the context of the limitations of our transgression-caused corrupted body as we are not responsible for that.

If a person had a manic episode for example, caused by the corrupted parts of that person's brain, having nothing to do with the person's spirit or spiritual choices and during that manic episode kills someone, I believe God, using this principle of not being responsible for the corruption brought on by Adam's transgression will not be looked at as sin. The judgement of course, can only be done knowing all the variables, which we do not have at our disposal in this life.

[annewandering]

This is such a wonderful teaching. God is the perfection of fairness. I am so grateful for this doctrine.

[JudoMinja]

An interesting distinction I find in this article of faith is that we believe we each earn our own punishment based on our own sins, but the consequences of our actions can affect more than ourselves...

We are in a Fallen state due to the decision of Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit in the garden- cause and effect. Our Fallen state is a consequence. Not a punishment. This ties in nicely with the concepts of agency and accountability. No matter what choice we make, a consequence is bound to follow- be it good or bad. That consequence is unaviodable and will have an effect on someone, somewhere in the world, no matter what. Big or small- our actions and decisions all put forces in motion that play a part in how the world works.

Punishments, however, are very different from consequences. We experience consequences in this life. Punishments will come later- at judgement day- to those who have not made use of the atonement, as outlined in our third article of faith.

[Guest]

Hello, Maygraceabound;

Thanks for your input and questions.

Thanks

Dove

I don't see Maygraceabound's input and questions... did it get deleted?

Isn't Maygrace Catholic?

Anyway, just FYI... you know how LDS can easily get misunderstood by those not familiar with its doctrine by just slight misrepresentation of what we believe? The opposite is also true - Catholic doctrine is easily misunderstood by those not familiar with it.

I'm not going to expound on it too much because this is not the thread for it, but I will just tell you that the Catholic "original sin" is actually the same as LDS belief. The end result is, regardless of Catholic or LDS, we all need the ordinance of Baptism because of our fallen state brought about by Adam's transgression. That's really all that "original sin" entails.

What makes Catholic and LDS different in this regard is Baptism for the Dead which is missing in Catholic doctrine. This is what makes "original sin" hold a different implication. So that, because of this very important missing doctrine, baby baptism becomes a practice, etc., because there's no other time that baptism can be performed to bring ourselves back to God from our fallen state if we don't get a chance to be baptized before death. So that, if one does die before one is baptized, in Catholic belief, our fallen state (brought about by the "original sin") makes our salvation not assured and we would solely be dependent on Divine Mercy just like if an LDS person would die before baptism and not have a single proxy do the work for him after death. A lot of people - even Catholics - deem this as a "punishment for Adam's transgression"... but the actual Catholic doctrine holds faith in Divine Mercy.

So, really, if you grew up Catholic, all you really need to have a testimony of is Baptism for the Dead, and Catholic belief can easily fall into the 2nd Article of Faith.

Edited March 26, 2012 by anatess

[Dove]

Thank you for clarifying, Anatess.

Yes, MGA posted twice on this topic, to which I was trying to answer, before deleting them off as I was responding. I didn't delete what I had written as it seemed a way of opening dialogue on this and to get conversation on the 2nd article of faith going.

I was trying to give basics of our beliefs on this for those viewing the forum who are unfamiliar with what we believe. Also, to have a cordial discussion with MGA about his, and our beliefs. Unfortunately, it looks like he couldn't contain himself and, as a result, is no longer allowed here. Sad.

Thanks again about the catholic perspective. I don't know what denomination MGA is. I assumed either born-again or traditional Christian.

Dove

[Guest]

Man, I have to expound on this a bit more because if a Catholic would read this thread he would go... WHAT? "Original sin" is not as simple as that!

Okay, there is also another missing doctrine from Catholic doctrine that holds a different implication for "original sin". Pre-mortal existence. That's absent from Catholic doctrine. So that, because of this missing piece, Catholics believe that God created our Spirits (first Adam, then Eve) on Paradise (Eden) as its perfect place to be. But because of Adam's transgression, we enter a fallen state and now all our Spirits will have to go through mortality. Without premortal existence and our choice to come to earth to be tested, then there is nothing else to conclude but that without this transgression, all of us would have lived forever in Paradise. So that most people - including Catholics - see our mortality as punishment for Adam's transgression. Okay, notice the difference in nuance - when we, LDS, think of punishment, we mean the result of judgement. Catholics do not believe that we got judged according to Adam's transgression that's why we get to suffer for his sins. No. We are not judged according to "original sin". Our mortality, and the aches and pains we experience because of it, is merely the consequence of "original sin". Which is the same as LDS belief.

[Bensalem]

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

This is a great revelation to the world. It removes the false teaching that we are born in sin (Original Sin). It corrects the false practice of infant baptism as required by Catholic, Orthodox, and some Protestant churches. It removes the false concept of limbo.

This Article of Faith alone should convert anyone who has ever held a baby in their arms or witnessed the unique innocence in their eyes, as compared to the doctrine of damnation professed by any church that says otherwise. [To be clear, I use the term damnation to describe the teaching of other churches that would block an unbaptized child from entering into the presence of God.]

Not to mention the fact that the NT never speaks of the need to baptize infants. Jesus taught of a baptism of repentance, not of original sin; repentance requires a conscience choice and the ability to recognize ones own sinfulness.

Wake up and smell the truth people. Correct doctrine must abide in His one true Church. There can only be one; and the LDS Church is the fulfillment of the promised Restoration.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Bensalem

[Bensalem]

Man, I have to expound on this a bit more because if a Catholic would read this thread he would go... WHAT? "Original sin" is not as simple as that!

Okay, there is also another missing doctrine from Catholic doctrine that holds a different implication for "original sin". Pre-mortal existence. That's absent from Catholic doctrine. So that, because of this missing piece, Catholics believe that God created our Spirits (first Adam, then Eve) on Paradise (Eden) as its perfect place to be. But because of Adam's transgression, we enter a fallen state and now all our Spirits will have to go through mortality. Without premortal existence and our choice to come to earth to be tested, then there is nothing else to conclude but that without this transgression, all of us would have lived forever in Paradise. So that most people - including Catholics - see our mortality as punishment for Adam's transgression. Okay, notice the difference in nuance - when we, LDS, think of punishment, we mean the result of judgement. Catholics do not believe that we got judged according to Adam's transgression that's why we get to suffer for his sins. No. We are not judged according to "original sin". Our mortality, and the aches and pains we experience because of it, is merely the consequence of "original sin". Which is the same as LDS belief.

You have presented a great perspective, which I have not heard before; the Catholic idea that this life is a punishment imposed on us beyond our freedom to choice otherwise.

The LDS believe that this life is a blessing toward attaining a higher state of being in the resurrection, and that it was our choice to participate with a full understanding of the promise that God would provide a Savoir toward that goal.

God didn't force Lucifer and His clan to take up the human form. They remain as spirits and rebellious angles. So why would He force good angels to come to earth against their will. They simply remain as good angels in a spirit existence.

I think this view can be summed up in the LDS doctrine of progression (mostly lacking in the other churches). Revelation from our prophets have clarified the vision of three Kingdoms or Glories spoken of by the apostles in the NT. Namely, the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms, aka. the glory of the sun, moon, and stars.

It requires no great leap of faith to see each kingdom or glory as the three estates of the Resurrection (afterlife), Mortality (present life), and Spirituality (premortal life).

Thanks for your insight.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Bensalem