Does the Mormon Bible Contain Babylonian Numerology?

[moundbuilder]

Looking the story of (Nephi) Hagoth, one can not help but recognize the connections with Og and similarities with the Nephilim and the Amorite Babylonian Codex of Gematria.

*edited by moderator*

13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of LDS.net. LDS.net is not responsible for the content of any site linked on LDS.net.

Edited March 28, 2012 by pam
tags

[skalenfehl]

I would guess the Jaredites had more similarities to Nephilim, than Hagoth. Furthermore, I strongly believe that Hagoth, when he went to the Land North via the West Sea, he traveled up the Yucatan/Cuban land bridge, up Florida along the coast and up the Mississippi, probably as far north as his exceeding curiosity took him. I strongly believe the Gulf of Mexico was the West Sea.

[annewandering]

Do you mean the King James Bible?

[pam]

Good catch Anne and a good question. What does the OP mean by Mormon Bible? The profile states he is LDS..but that isn't a term that someone who is LDS would use.

[john doe]

Looking the story of (Nephi) Hagoth, one can not help but recognize the connections with Og and similarities with the Nephilim and the Amorite Babylonian Codex of Gematria.

*edited by moderator*

The 'Mormon Bible' is the same King James Version that many Christian sects use. Perhaps you meant to say the Book of Mormon?

Edited March 28, 2012 by pam

[Blackmarch]

Looking the story of (Nephi) Hagoth, one can not help but recognize the connections with Og and similarities with the Nephilim and the Amorite Babylonian Codex of Gematria.

*edited by moderator*

(i'm guessing you mean the Book of mormon, as the bible LDS/mormons use is the KJV), possibly earlier in the book if any of that influenced jewish numerology/language, later on tho you'll find more numbers and practices that are of more significant to ancient american cultures.

That being said there has been quite a bit of cross cultural influence throughout jewish history, so i would not be surprised if there is some relation.

Edited March 28, 2012 by pam

[annewandering]

Why would we encourage numerology in any way?

[HiJolly]

Why would we encourage numerology in any way?

Not numerology per se, but rather Gematria. There is a difference between them, at least to me.

The people who wrote both the Old and New testaments knew Gematria and *used* it in writing the Bible. Both in the Hebrew and in the Greek. Here's an example (not my article, someone else wrote it):

"WHY 153 FISH IN ONE NET ?

John 21:1-14

? After these things, Jesus showed Himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise showed He himself. There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.

? Simon Peter saith unto them, ‘I go a-fishing’. They say unto him, ‘We also go with thee’. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing. But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not hat it was Jesus. Then Jesus said unto them, ‘Children, have ye any meat?’ They answered Him, ‘No’. And He said unto them, ‘Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find’. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

?Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said unto Peter, ‘It is the Lord’. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked) and did cast himself into the sea. And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from the land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

?As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. Jesus saith unto them, ‘Bring of the fish which ye have now caught’. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, AN HUNDRED AND FIFTY AND THREE: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

?Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples dare ask him, Who art Thou? Knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. This is now the third time that Jesus showed Himself to His disciples, after that He was risen from the dead.

THE ACCURACY OF GOD

?To understand the tremendous importance of this number, which was not a random count, one must first be fully aware of the value of numbers in the scripture. If you desire to understand numbers in scripture and where their meanings come from, we recommend that Kingdom Nuggets No.2 - "Count Numbers because Numbers Count", be studied as it will certainly help in this more detailed account of one specific number . . .153! Keep in mind that Jesus ministered entirely on the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

?In John 2:11 we read, This beginning of miracles did Jesus... The Greek word translated ‘miracles’ is SEMEION which means SIGN, MIRACLE, WONDER and TOKEN. It has a root word which means TO INDICATE. This opens up an intriguing journey through John’s Gospel. There are (8) miracle signs (SEMEION) recorded in this Gospel of John. There could have been more, but that was not God’s intention. There are (7) signs before the Cross and the climax sign-miracle after the resurrection. We now look briefly at this miracle, because it points towards God’s tremendous climax in His plan for us.?

There were (7) out of the (11) disciples chosen by God to witness this ‘miracle sign’ . . . in fact be a part of it! They had KNOWLEDGE & TESTIMONY that Jesus had been raised from the dead. They, like us, are thus thrilled, but have failed to believe that ‘He overcame death for us’ to the point where ‘resurrection life’ is for us while we still walk upon this earth.

?There must have been a cry in their hearts to experience such life as they saw He had. They knew Jesus was alive from the dead, but that knowledge didn’t DO anything for them; it didn’t change their vision and expectation. So they were a little disappointed especially now that Jesus had not showed Himself again. They could only recall, ‘The things that I do, ye shall do also and greater. . .’ In the realm of the 100-fold experience of faith where we are not yet moving in, it is quite easy, because we are not hearing the Lord as clearly as we would like, to fall back onto DOING SOMETHING instead of RESTING in Him!!!

?For many of us, we are active and efficient people and find it hard to ‘be still and know that the Lord, He is God’. Peter was in that clan and voices his frustration, "I’m going fishing". That was at least something HE COULD DO! It sparked the same feeling in the others . . . so all (7) get in their ship centering their minds and their bodies on a different subject. Their efforts produced NOTHING even in an area where some of them were skilled! The darkness of the night depicting their ignorance of the wrong choice of action . . . unaware of what god desired to teach them.

A NEW DAY . . .

?‘In the morning’ — the beginning of a NEW DAY — with enlightenment dawning upon their circumstances and thinking, the resurrected Christ was there! In the daybreak Jesus was there on the shore but was not immediately recognized!

?Jesus speaks, ‘Have you any food?’ A corporate voice declares that they hadn’t caught anything (not even a wee crab!). Their net had been hauled into the ship in frustration and probably disgust! Jesus was on ‘higher ground’ than they were as the beach or land is always higher than the water! From where He was (in heaven while on the earth!) He had a clearer vision than those disciples in their (fellow)ship. Jesus speaks and it comes over clearly as a command, ‘Put the net in on the starboard side’.

?The disciples heard that the voice had authority and obeyed without question, dropping the net overboard . . . AND the net was immediately filled with fish. Out of the whole fish population of the Sea of Tiberias, just (153) fish HEARD HIS VOICE. The effect was that they came to the net and laid down their lives irreversibly. It is noted that these (153) were GREAT FISH . . . they were fully mature!

?John, because of the word from Jesus and the effect upon him of that word, recognized the Lord and declared who He was. Peter’s love was demonstrated — he grabbed his coat (‘guilty-conscience’) and quickly covered his flesh! Such magnificent timing by God . . . they were 200 cubits from the shore. ‘200’ in scripture means ‘insufficient with what you have’. Truly without the pertinent word for the moment from Jesus Christ, we too are 200 cubits from where He would have us be . . . where He is — on higher (resurrection) ground!

Please note that the disciples did not put these ‘153’ fish into their (fellow)ship!!! They brought these mature ones to the higher ground where Christ was.

?Jesus already had some smaller ‘fish’ for this occasion . . . no wonder considering that He was the greatest ‘Fisherman of men’!

?Now why does the record say so specifically that there were (153) fish — no more — no less! It was a precise count (I wonder if these fishermen were in the habit of counting their catch?).

"BENI HA-ELOHIM"

?The 8th. and last ‘miracle sign’ of John’s Gospel is climaxed with these 153 fish. As we have seen, the ‘’triage’ (the mathematical value of a word)’ of the Hebrew phrase Beni Ha-Elohim ,which means SONS OF GOD, is 153. This phrase occurs a total of seven times in the Bible and one of them is in Job 2:1, where the sons of God are accompanied by Satan. God does not change; therefore His purposes outlined in the Old Testament are clarified and fulfilled in the New Testament. Here the Old Testament phrase is the key to revealing what God’s miracle-signs are pointing towards.

Out of all the ‘Christian fish’ in God’s sea, there was only 153 who heard the voice of Jesus at that specific and important time. These fish were mature (that was why the record declares that they were great fish) . . . they were overcomers seeing that they hadn’t been caught by the nets of traditional bondage . . . they immediately responded to the voice of Christ and came to the net which is to fully embrace the word of the kingdom. The result would then be a full laying down of one’s old life.

Let us first factorize the 153 and observe the initial blessings; 153 = 17 X 9. The sons of God (153) have within themselves an unchangeable (9) victory (17). All the ingredients of this victory (17) are contained in the sons of God. We see this by adding up all the numbers from 1 to 17, and we find the sum = 153.

???????‘THE NET’

?Now we will touch upon the hidden 153’s that show up in the gematria of numerous phrases, etc., in the Word. THE NET which speaks to us of the vision of the Kingdom of God, has a value of 153 X 8 which translates in the spirit to this: that the sons of God (153) will experience resurrection life (8) when they have TRULY laid down their identities in the net of His Kingdom. This vision will bring us from the ‘right’ side of the boat to the higher ground of the King’s presence.

?God’s great care of His people, coupled with His desire that all come forth into His Kingdom, is shown to us in numerous phrases. Here are just some of them that show the hidden 153’s declaring the nature of ‘SONSHIP’ within.

Luke 9:13-the word ‘fishes’ =153 X 8.

Mark 8:34-‘follow me’ = 153 X 12.

John 14:6- I am the Way = 153 X 8. WAY + TRUTH +LIFE = 153 X 8.

Luke 13:25-The Door = 153 X 6.

John 10:7-I say unto..down to...of the sheep = 153 x 37.

Matthew 7:13-The narrow gate = 153 X 13.

John 10:1 Entereth not by the.......sheepfold = 153 X 41. ??

Mark 1:17- Fishers of men = 153 X 14.

Matthew 4:18- Casting a net into the sea = 153 X 20. (=sons bringing redemption)

?? ?For they were fishermen = 153 X 4.

Mark 1:18-Immediately......follow him = 153 X 41.

Luke 5:6-multitude of fishes = 153 X 16.

John 21:6 - ? Cast the net......ye shall find = 153 X 27.

John 21:11-Drew the net...........fifty and three = 153 X 54.

Rev. 3:20- If anyone.......will come in = 153 X 39.

?JOINT HEIRS of Romans 8:17, the gematria = 153 X 7. The phrase declares that the sons of God (153) will attain completeness (7) in Christ and become heirs, inheritors of the Kingdom along with the Pattern Son, Jesus.

?THE CREATION OF GOD of Revelation 3:14 has the value of 153 X 8 and shows the identification of the sons of God with the Son of God who came forth first in the New Creation.

?This same net-word has been placed before us saints many times as we have struggled in the darkness (ignorance) of the fact that Jesus is on higher ground calling to us with the vision and enabling for us to become a part of that ‘153’ fish company of sons! We are at the beginning of a ‘new day’; God’s timing for the coming together of His firstfruit sons into one ‘netted’ expression of Himself.

?At the voice of the Lord, lives become fully surrendered, brought to higher ground (thinking) where the resurrected Christ is waiting to clean us some more, add a touch of fire, so that we can be meat in the Master’s hand to feed the hungry.

‘8’ FOR DINNER

?There were a total of eight dining together — a new beginning (8) manifesting resurrection life (8). It was also the third time Jesus had revealed Himself to them. We have met the resurrected Christ in our Salvation-Passover experience, then in our ‘baptism in the Spirit’- Pentecost, the down-payment of the fullness of His enabling power, and now this is the third feast that we experience, namely Tabernacles — the fullness of the Spirit (God), the harvest of the Seed - Christ Jesus sown in our earth. (Every seed brings forth after its kind).

153 BLESSED ‘SONS’

?It is the purpose of God to bring His 153 - mature sons as the first wave of His endtime plan. By passing through His gentle but firm hands, they will be brought to corporate full stature of Christ and the effect of such a work will be that they will do the things that Jesus did — seeing that they will have the same power. ‘Wave upon wave’ - we’ll see the next order coming into that fullness until every man in his own order completes His plan.

?One of the greatest insights concerning this number, show the 153 fish to be representing the 153 people mentioned in the four gospels that Jesus blessed during His walk on the earth. Each one of these, upon further study, shows amazing pointers to God’s ultimate purpose of having a corporate (harvest) son in the image of THE SEED, Christ Jesus.

FIRST, WE HEAR HIS VOICE

?Oh, that each one of us would have ears to hear the Master’s Voice! Having heard His word, we would move from wherever we are in the lake of our daily living to the net that will take us to Christ. In this place of genuine, complete surrender, we will be fully teachable and thus usable. This net (the revelation of the Kingdom of God) can handle the 153 great fish without breaking. This net will cause the 153 to become corporate (John 17:21 ‘that they all may be one; as Thou Father, art in Me and I in Thee..), whereby each one will lose his individuality. This process of the ‘net ministry’ in making us truly one, culminates with a further cleaning and with the baptism of fire (a part of or effect of the baptism in the Holy Spirit). They will then be meat in the Master’s hand. His plan is to feed the hungry and the feeding will not be limited to 5000!"

HiJolly

Mormon Mystic

Edited March 26, 2012 by HiJolly
attribution -- not myself

[skippy740]

HiJolly - could you please update your post to include the link to the article? Thanks!

[annewandering]

How do we know the writers knew this? It is not mentioned in any of their writings.

[Vort]

Just an opinion:

This is nonsense. It's numerology under a different name. The human brain is a pattern-recognition device, probably the most able and flexible such device in the universe. But with the ability to recognize patterns comes the possibility of seeing ducks and dragons in clouds, Greek heroes and monsters in the stars, and faces in random distributions of dots. Gematria and numerology in general are just number-based occurrences of this same phenomenon.

No one who already subscribes to gematria is likely to be dissuaded because of what I write, but I hope that those who are "investigating" such things will quickly perceive that it's pattern recognition run amok and will give it all the ignoring that it so richly deserves.

[annewandering]

I love the fact that computers are often used to find the patterns. If you give it a broad enough range I bet you could find lots of things in most any book.

[RipplecutBuddha]

for the most literal answer to the op's question, yes it does, since we use the KJV for the 'mormon bible'. As for the Book of Mormon, dunno...never cared about the issue enough to look.

[skippy740]

I don't know about numerology, but there are other fascinating aspects to The Book of Mormon. I'd check out the "Jewish Perspective" forum right here on lds.net. Thekabalist makes some fascinating points!

[volgadon]

The author of the book of Revelation used gematria. 666 or 616 are numerical values for different spellings of Nero's name.

[HiJolly]

HiJolly - could you please update your post to include the link to the article? Thanks!

I don't think I got it from this site, but it can be found here: http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/pdf/KNIGHT,%20RAY/WHY%20153%20FISH%20IN%20ONE%20NET%20%5BRay%20Knight%5D.pdf

Be aware, this site is not really friendly to Mormonism...

HiJolly

[skippy740]

Thanks for the warning. At least the link is to a PDF. I just think it's important to provide a link to whatever we copy/paste on the forums to link back to the source. That's all.

Thanks!

[HiJolly]

Thanks for the warning. At least the link is to a PDF. I just think it's important to provide a link to whatever we copy/paste on the forums to link back to the source. That's all.

Thanks!

Except it's not the source.

HJ

[moundbuilder]

Holly,

Great post. I dont understand the connection between 17 and the "sons" could you clarify this connection for me. Fascinating research on your part.

[HiJolly]

Holly,

Great post. I dont understand the connection between 17 and the "sons" could you clarify this connection for me. Fascinating research on your part.

Again, this was not written by me. I found it whilst studying Kabbalah and gematria, gematria based in the numeric values of the letters of primarily the Hebrew aleph-beit and also the Greek alpha-bet.

You are referring to the statement:

Let us first factorize the 153 and observe the initial blessings; 153 = 17 X 9. The sons of God (153) have within themselves an unchangeable (9) victory (17). All the ingredients of this victory (17) are contained in the sons of God. We see this by adding up all the numbers from 1 to 17, and we find the sum = 153.

The human mind *loves* patterns. Gematria uses that love to create symbolisms 'pointers' to higher truths, subtly mixed with the text of scripture. No one that knows Hebrew well would ever dispute the use of gematria in the scriptures. We have no equivalent in English, so we tend to miss the whole concept, and dismiss it out of hand. But that's just because of our ignorance of Hebrew.

To learn the numeric value of hebrew words, we typically turn to Strong's lexicon. It is found Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

So when we take the word 'victory' (one of the 10 attributes of Godliness) and translate it to hebrew, the word is "netzach" Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

In doing this, we see that '17' is not in it anywhere. Perhaps in the Greek? I don't know where the author got '17'. Sorry.

HiJolly