Christ is the Father. Why is this a mystery?

[Vort]

Ram's recent Book of Mormon posting led me to thinking about the confusion many Latter-day Saints have with Christ being the Father:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

This particular citation from Abinadi's lecture is the one normally used when expressing confusion, but this doctrine is clearly taught all over the Book of Mormon and in other scriptures, including the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants.

Why is it so mysterious? I can see two possible reasons:

• Many Saints don't really read or ponder the scriptures, so they are simply not aware of what the scriptures plainly teach on this issue.
• In conjunction with #1, many Saints come from a background that teaches the so-called "Trinity", are aware that we don't believe in these teachings, and so conclude that Christ as the Father is a false teaching

I substituted in teaching the 14-year-olds class yesterday. We talked about this very thing. A room full of 14-year-olds (well, five of them) seemed to understand the principle just fine: That we are children of God the Father by premortal spiritual birth, but we become the children of Christ by making and keeping covenants. And when we are children of Christ, that makes him our Father.

[Dravin]

I suspect it's #2, though it doesn't take a trinitarian background but simply awareness of a trinitarian viewpoint. Christ is the Father in a specific way (which you describe and discussed with those 14 year olds). However if the context is not set up I think people immediately think, "Premortal spiritual birth" for the meaning of Father, not necessarily adoption, so the initial reaction is, "No, wait... that's wrong!"

I haven't run into a bunch of LDS people who, being aware of the context in which Father is being used, have a hard time understanding. I mean if you think about it, in their own senses Adam, Heavenly Father, and Christ are all our Fathers but all in different ways. So if the context is confused I can understand the confusion. But if we're talking about individuals who understand the context by which Christ is being called our Father and who are maintaining it as incorrect doctrine I don't know what to tell you.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Dravin

[annewandering]

So is this why the Adam/God thing got going?

[Dravin]

So is this why the Adam/God thing got going?

Misunderstanding over the context by which Christ is our Father? You'd have to ask Brigham Young (or find the answer in his writings/recorded talks).

[Vort]

So is this why the Adam/God thing got going?

It is my opinion (though one I probably can't defend and definitely don't care to attempt to try) that Brigham Young was correct, and was misunderstood and possibly misquoted in his so-called "Adam/God" teachings. I suspect we will discover that, from within his frame of reference and perhaps peculiar word usage, Brigham Young was right in his beliefs on this topic. It might indeed be a generalization of the principle that makes Christ our Father, but I doubt it's immediately related. Christ as the Father is simple, basic, and obvious, while "Adam/God" is nebulous, speculative (at best), and contoversial (to say the least).

[HEthePrimate]

Why is it so mysterious? I can see two possible reasons:

Because, unlike you, most people are incredibly stupid.

Sarcasm aside, what's obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to another. While it is obvious to you that Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits from the pre-existence, and as we make a covenant with Jesus, he becomes our spiritual father, to other people it is equally obvious that people only have one father.

Some people would say it's also possible that at the time Joseph Smith wrote the BoM, his thinking was more Trinitarian, in keeping with what he had been taught as a child, and that as time went on, he developed the concept of a Godhead with three distinct personages.

BTW, if your theory is true, does that mean Heavenly Father is both our father and our grandfather?

Edited April 30, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[circusboy01]

I suspect it's #2, though it doesn't take a trinitarian background but simply awareness of a trinitarian viewpoint. Christ is the Father in a specific way (which you describe and discussed with those 14 year olds). However if the context is not set up I think people immediately think, "Premortal spiritual birth" for the meaning of Father, not necessarily adoption, so the initial reaction is, "No, wait... that's wrong!"

I haven't run into a bunch of LDS people who, being aware of the context in which Father is being used, have a hard time understanding. I mean if you think about it, in their own senses Adam, Heavenly Father, and Christ are all our Fathers but all in different ways. So if the context is confused I can understand the confusion. But if we're talking about individuals who understand the context by which Christ is being called our Father and who are maintaining it as incorrect doctrine I don't know what to tell you.

This is what I remember learning. Am I remembering wrong?

Elohim (spelling?) is our Heavenly Father ( God)

Jehovah: Is the only begotten son of God The Lord. ( our older Brother)

Jehovah: Was the God of the Old Testament.

[log2]

Some people would say it's also possible that at the time Joseph Smith wrote the BoM, his thinking was more Trinitarian, in keeping with what he had been taught as a child, and that as time went on, he developed the concept of a Godhead with three distinct personages.

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father. The Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and or spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." - Joseph Smith

I would suggest, therefore, that such people as you refer to would probably not be members in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited April 30, 2012 by log2

[HEthePrimate]

I would suggest, therefore, that such people as you refer to would probably not be members in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Suggest away! It makes no difference as to whether or not they actually are in good standing.

I know active, temple recommend-holding members who believe all kinds of stuff!

I think the Church leaders are more interested in orthopraxy than strict orthodoxy.

"We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts." -- Hugh B. Brown

[log2]

I know active, temple recommend-holding members who believe all kinds of stuff!

I don't doubt that you do.

I think the Church leaders are more interested in orthopraxy than strict orthodoxy.

There is a minimal level of orthodoxy required - say, among others, belief in the prophethood of Joseph Smith, without which "a testimony of the Restoration of the Gospel" would be a complete farce. Of course, if someone believes Joseph was a liar, deluded, or insane (or possibly wicked), then there is some heavy-duty equivocation going on during the temple recommend interview.

[HiJolly]

So is this why the Adam/God thing got going?

I don't think so.

HJ

[Traveler]

Ram's recent Book of Mormon posting led me to thinking about the confusion many Latter-day Saints have with Christ being the Father:

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

...

By whatever logic anyone wants to employ - if G-d is in truth the Father of the children of men - then G-d must be a man.

The Traveler

[Dravin]

This is what I remember learning. Am I remembering wrong?

Elohim (spelling?) is our Heavenly Father ( God)

Jehovah: Is the only begotten son of God The Lord. ( our older Brother)

Jehovah: Was the God of the Old Testament.

None of that is incorrect, but it's not complete either, Christ is the Father in the sense that Vort explained above, God the Father - Jehovah, but he's also our Father via Adoption. Now it's understandable that people tend to default to a sort of 'biological' context but it's not the only context.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Dravin

[DevtheWind]

I think my brain just had a meltdown...

[HEthePrimate]

Does it really matter?

[pntkl]

Does it really matter?

Even for the angels, it certainly does not. It introduces contention where it does not have a place. It's not exactly like, but kind of like saying, "My dad can beat up your dad." Then hearing a retort such as, "Oh yeah? Well my dad has a bazooka!" Finally, after all the dust clears, both find out they have the same father.

Listen closely, what does matter is the realization that there is one true God. That He so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten Son. That those that would believe on Him will be given everlasting life and not suffer spiritual death [outer darkness]. Even knowing of a generation of gods, it in no part lends credibility to the paradoxical idea that the Father of our fathers once was, yet now has passed on His torch. He lives: just as His Son, even before there was, that now is: He lived.

Obfuscation is a fickle beast. On one hand, it leaves mystery. On the other, it gives incentive, to become closer to Him.

Accepting the origin of our Father in heaven has absolute zero value, concerning our return to Him. In fact, even if I were to say the completeness of Truth, concerning this matter--it would be disputed until Kingdom Come. All sides would demand evidence, no matter their worthiness or faithfulness. To even say it, would be to tempt all to such a poor show of faith; it would be shameful and bring others to shame

His gospel is not about condemnation, contention, nor is it about origins unknown, without His revelation, even as it is yet to be fully and plainly spoken, in terms everyone can agree upon.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[circusboy01]

Because, unlike you, most people are incredibly stupid.

Sarcasm aside, what's obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to another. While it is obvious to you that Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits from the pre-existence, and as we make a covenant with Jesus, he becomes our spiritual father, to other people it is equally obvious that people only have one father.

Some people would say it's also possible that at the time Joseph Smith wrote the BoM, his thinking was more Trinitarian, in keeping with what he had been taught as a child, and that as time went on, he developed the concept of a Godhead with three distinct personages.

BTW, if your theory is true, does that mean Heavenly Father is both our father and our grandfather?

Joseph Smith knew from the start that Heavenly Father, and Jesus where two separate beings He saw that this was so in the first vision. He did not develop this concept at a later time.

[circusboy01]

By whatever logic anyone wants to employ - if G-d is in truth the Father of the children of men - then G-d must be a man.

The Traveler

Some people think that this is talking about Jesus Christ. But it is actually talking about Heavenly Father

" As man is, God once was."

" As God is, man may become"

So Heavenly Father was once a man, like you and I. He is now an Exalted Man.

[skalenfehl]

Abinadi expounded it beautifully and it is alluded to throughout the Book of Mormon. There is only one God and one Son of God as Joseph Smith plainly witnessed in his first vision. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is Jehovah, condescended to become our Savior. We are His seed when we become His covenant people through the gospel of repentance and baptism and thus become His children through the Atonement and thus He becomes our Father.

[pntkl]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/15.1-15?lang=eng#0 Abinadi expounded it beautifully and it is alluded to throughout the Book of Mormon. There is only one God and one Son of God as Joseph Smith plainly witnessed in his first vision. The Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is Jehovah, condescended to become our Savior. We are His seed when we become His covenant people through the gospel of repentance and baptism and thus become His children through the Atonement and thus He becomes our Father.

What skalenfehl says is correct. However, the statement of His becoming the Father can be confusing to some. It doesn't imply that He is the Father of Creation, as even the Son's Father is the same as any. There is nothing that precedes the Father. Without Him, nothing is possible. It is by Adam's transgression that death was known to man. By none alone, other than the Messiah, do any sinners find themselves returned to the Father. Without sin, we could be like Enoch and the city of Zion, being returned to the Father, sinless before the Him, which however many children so desire of this path, it is extremely rare.

In order to be able to receive eternal life in His Glory, beyond a mortal existence, we are required by His Law to be perfect. Bearing the debts of sin, no man can be found capable of again standing before our Father in heaven and be free from the Law of Recompense. Knowing this contradiction, that sin carries the penalty of death, even as our Creator desires for all of his children to walk with Him again: those that willed to take upon the mortal were in agreement, in the pre-mortal, that the Son who is the Father of the Plan of Salvation, His covenant with the Father was acceptable to us.

That covenant with His anointed Son, the only begotten in the flesh, the Father of this Plan, if he were to live a perfect life, to Atone for it being allowed to be taken from Him, the burden of man's debt could be carried by His Son's selfless sacrifice, being in His Son, found acceptable in the sight of our Father of Creation. By His covenant, given only for those that believe in the veiled flesh, through faithful humility, that they may in the name of His Son, the Father of eternal life, be allowed to be cleansed through Him, under the Atonement for His death, by our Father of Creation.

Having lived a perfect and upright mortal life, never forgetting His Father and always in obedience--He prepared the path of perfection. Then, having brought divine light into this world submerged under depths so dark; that men might see what has been prepared; that they may carry this same light; that they may too be saved. That which was tilled, sown, and taken a good root within, growing by how each keeps their own, that is the seed Abinadi and other scriptures allude to. In our Savior, coming to wholesome fruition, our fruits may flavor, feed, and quench parched lips of those that would hunger and thirst for the same promises we held to. Taking this burden, as it is known, there is so much less to carry, than His Son's. By all means, those are children of the Christ, which all know: He Lives!

Love,

T.J. Wood

---

The Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith

Articles of Faith 1:1 

God the Father

The Pattern of Our Parentage - Ensign Nov. 1984 - ensign

"There is one God, the Father of all. This we accept as fundamental doctrine."

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - Liahona Mar. 1998 - liahona

"When Jesus prayed to the Father, certainly He was not praying to Himself!"

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent - general-conference

"We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four."

Seeking to Know God, Our Heavenly Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ - general-conference

"I testify that the way to know the truth about God is through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead, is a personage of spirit. His work is to “testify of [God]” 19 and to “teach [us] all things.” 20

However, we must be careful not to constrain His influence. When we do not do what is right or when our outlook is dominated by skepticism, cynicism, criticism, and irreverence toward others and their beliefs, the Spirit cannot be with us. We then act in a way that the prophets describe as the natural man.

“The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 21 This “natural man is an enemy to God, … and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, … and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, [and] full of love.”"

Matthew 17:14-21 

Mark 13:32-37 

Luke 18:1-14 

John 15:1-27 

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:19-24 

Doctrine and Covenants 110:1-10 

I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father:

Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice. Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name. For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

Proverbs 1:7-33 

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Mending Wall

As a servant of those in need of faith, I write to you having been charged by our Father in heaven, with the delivery of a warning. Where once born like a child, eagerly accepting lowliness, now like an adult, the faith in His Son bears burdens intended. By way of suppression, in formative years past, a wall was formed and made strong. It was built tall and wide, spanning great lengths, in either direction.

This barrier was built when it seemed as if without it, there could be no survival. Each side held onto an inverse monochromatic view of the other; both limiting love for another, covetous brothers, using division as cover. Evenhandedly, my Father does protest it's existence, in the slightest. Yet, it stands firm, displaying no uncertain loss of fidelity.

Each is responsible, however much one does accuse the other. They both are accused, by the Host of heaven. His call is certain: the old Army marches with the Son, to tear down this wall. Of each color, His Son does wear. This march should not scare, the weight made so much lighter to bear. In-between where it stood; it is there those found faithful are found fair. In pair, no power of theirs, does he care. Like a wild mare, in equal measure, He will be found there.

[skalenfehl]

Yes. While Christ who is Jehovah becomes the father of our salvation, He becomes our mediator to His Father and can claim us with His atoning power of mercy where His Father's law of justice loses claim upon us.

[james12]

I believe Mosiah 15:1-8 is primarily about submission and becoming one. Not in any strange way, but simply that the spirit and the flesh in Christ are perfectly united. Elder Holland said, "That is the very doctrine Abinadi taught - that the Father (the spirit) in Christ gave direction and had to be obeyed, while the Son (the flesh) in Christ had to yield and obey." (Christ and the New Covenant, p. 91) Abinadi teaches this in a number of ways.

1. Christ subjected the flesh to the will of the Father. (v2) How? Because he dwelleth in the flesh.

2. Christ subjected the flesh to the Spirit. (v5) How? Because he suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation.

3. Christ subjected the flesh even unto death. (v7) How? Because he allowed himself to be led, crucified, and slain.

Thus the will of the Son (the flesh) being swallowed up in the will of the Father (the Spirit).

He is indeed then one God the spirit and the flesh united in perfect harmony.

[rameumptom]

This is what I remember learning. Am I remembering wrong?

Elohim (spelling?) is our Heavenly Father ( God)

Jehovah: Is the only begotten son of God The Lord. ( our older Brother)

Jehovah: Was the God of the Old Testament.

This concept has only been in the Church since Elder James Talmage wrote "Jesus the Christ", in which he firmly separated the two Beings by names. Previous to this, the name "Jehovah" was used for both God and Jesus (see D&C 109, where Joseph Smith calls God "Jehovah" in the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer). Elohim and Jehovah were once thought of as Titles, rather than personal Names.

[rameumptom]

As regarding to orthodoxy and orthopraxy, I have to admit that the Church has very little actual doctrine we MUST believe in order to be temple worthy LDS. Yet, there are many issues of keeping commandments and living our lives that determine our worthiness in the temple or for other callings, as well.

For example, I may believe that the Book of Mormon is a historically fictional document brought forth by God to teach us truth and to witness for Christ, yet be obedient enough in all other things that I could be called as a bishop. (And before anyone says anything, I do believe in the historicity of the BoM, as far as it was written and translated correctly from individual Nephites' points of view).

I believe there is another way in which the God and Jesus are both the Father, as well as one God. This is taught as the "Doctrine of Christ" in 2 Ne 31 and 3 Ne 11. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God, and we must also be one with the saints and with the Godhead, in order to return to them. We do this by Faith in Christ, Repentance, Receiving Ordinances, Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost. This works not just once, but a cycle of change and enlightenment that brings us more and more to a oneness with other saints and with the Godhead. Jesus is the Father because God the Father shares all things with Jesus, and empowers him to act as Father in all things. He becomes our adopted Father, and it is only through having this relationship with Christ that we can approach a relationship with God the Father.

[skalenfehl]

D&C 109 is such a beautiful prayer. Very powerful. Ram, you really know your stuff.