josephsmith.net

[jb789]

I would agree that the Church focuses on the essentials of Joseph Smith (his life and prophetic mission), as these truly are the essentials of gaining a testimony.

I understand where you're coming from about additional details of Joseph Smith (polygamy, treasure seeking, etc) not being commonly mentioned in church literature. I actually have an interest in learning more about Church history, I've been reading Rough Stone Rolling and it's given a bit more insight into the details of Joseph's life.

Despite this, I must say (to my surprise!) that seeing Joseph as a human being, with weaknesses like us all, has given me a greater testimony and love for him. The very apostles of Christ (Peter, for example) were severely rebuked by the Lord, as well as prophets in the bible. Modern prophets are no different - they are fallible human beings, doing the best they can to do what's right and serve God.

To me, the weaknesses of Joseph and other prophets give me hope that even I, with my many frailities, can have hope through Christ to be saved, and can hopefully be a help to others also as they were.

It should not come as a surprise to any to learn that Joseph or any other prophet had weaknesses and difficulties, and was misunderstood. The entire history of Christian prophets is evidence of this!

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, it's always interesting when a mainstream Christian points to Joseph's foibles as evidence that there's a problem with our truth claims. That particular criticism is good evidence that someone hasn't been reading their Old Testament very much. Several of the OT prophets were hardly what you'd call shining paragons of noble sacredness. Thefts, using power to get gain, lying, drunkenness, changing revelations after one got lost - right there in the Bible, for anyone interested in reading about it.

An argument against the church, based on Joseph's foibles, is also an argument against the Bible.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Tyler90AZ]

I read a quote by Brigham Young that rings true. Something along the line of, everything about Joseph Smith Jr. was spiritual, everything he did resonated spirituality. Everything Joseph Smith Jr. did for his friends, members of the church, was spiritual. From restoring the Gospel to the last doctrine he set forth. I can't think of one doctrine he set forth that doesn't enhance spirituality.

[prisonchaplain]

My one concern about Joseph Smith--and it's not a criticism--more an observation--is that his father seemed set against the clergy of his town, and Joseph likely picked up the same views. I base my thought on the movie about Joseph Smith that was shown at the Temple Square theater, for visitors. Since the movie was church-produced and sponsored, I am assuming it is accurate in this. So, when young Joseph prayed about which church he should join, carried with his question probably was the thought, "Can any of them be true?" This added insight leads me to believe that he was well ready to hear the answer, "None of them."

This observation neither proves or disproves Joseph Smith's encounter. Skeptics will suggest that the message he received was self-fulfilled prophecy. Supporters will counter that even this young adolescent discerned that something was off with the church.

The irony--and this is where a site like josephsmith.net serves us well--is that the fact that the movie I refer to is church-sponsored lends credence to the observation. So my bottom line is that investigators, and those interested in doing a balanced study of Joseph Smith and the church should include authorized sources in their searchings.

[Tyler90AZ]

My one concern about Joseph Smith--and it's not a criticism--more an observation--is that his father seemed set against the clergy of his town, and Joseph likely picked up the same views. I base my thought on the movie about Joseph Smith that was shown at the Temple Square theater, for visitors. Since the movie was church-produced and sponsored, I am assuming it is accurate in this. So, when young Joseph prayed about which church he should join, carried with his question probably was the thought, "Can any of them be true?" This added insight leads me to believe that he was well ready to hear the answer, "None of them."

This observation neither proves or disproves Joseph Smith's encounter. Skeptics will suggest that the message he received was self-fulfilled prophecy. Supporters will counter that even this young adolescent discerned that something was off with the church.

The irony--and this is where a site like josephsmith.net serves us well--is that the fact that the movie I refer to is church-sponsored lends credence to the observation. So my bottom line is that investigators, and those interested in doing a balanced study of Joseph Smith and the church should include authorized sources in their searchings.

The thing is his father must not have been set against the local clergy because he was a member of a local church. In addition, one of the first things Joseph Smith Jr. did after his glorious vision was tell a Methodist preacher. Those two things lead me to believe that he nor his father was set against the local clergy. Also his object was to know which sect was right and didn't go out with a mindset that they were all wrong.

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as avisions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Tyler90AZ

[prisonchaplain]

The thing is his father must not have been set against the local clergy because he was a member of a local church. In addition, one of the first things Joseph Smith Jr. did after his glorious vision was tell a Methodist preacher. Those two things lead me to believe that he nor his father was set against the local clergy. Also his object was to know which sect was right and didn't go out with a mindset that they were all wrong.

This may be a matter of nuance. In the movie a clergy person was asking the father to come to church, and if I recall right, his response was that the ministers argued too much, and he felt he could learn just as much by simply reading his Bible (I am recalling a viewing I did about 4-years ago, so admit to being fuzzy on the details). Suffice to say, I came away from the movie with the impression that the father thought the clergy were not too brilliant, and that young Joseph Smith must certainly have learned that the church was a place of contention.

You are certainly correct that the Smith's were not Anti-church or Anti-clergy. However, at least according to the movie, they were disappointed with the fighting and skeptical of the wisdom of some of the preachers.

[Maureen]

...Despite this, I must say (to my surprise!) that seeing Joseph as a human being, with weaknesses like us all, has given me a greater testimony and love for him....

Depending on what perspective a person is coming from this can be a positive or a negative. Before I read Mormon Enigma, I saw JS in a very negative light; but after reading the book it finally occured to me that he was very human, with good and bad qualities; just like any person. In fact, in reading this book and learning about JS I actually came to like him. But someone brought up in the LDS church with the perspective that JS was bigger than life in an over the top positive way can be crushing if the person later on finds out that JS was actually quite human. IMO, the josephsmith.net site can be over the top in how "bigger than life" they portray him. It can mess with the reality on how any human being should be regarded.

M.

[jb789]

Depending on what perspective a person is coming from this can be a positive or a negative. Before I read Mormon Enigma, I saw JS in a very negative light; but after reading the book it finally occured to me that he was very human, with good and bad qualities; just like any person. In fact, in reading this book and learning about JS I actually came to like him. But someone brought up in the LDS church with the perspective that JS was bigger than life in an over the top positive way can be crushing if the person later on finds out that JS was actually quite human. IMO, the josephsmith.net site can be over the top in how "bigger than life" they portray him. It can mess with the reality on how any human being should be regarded.

M.

Yes, I'm very much in agreement. I think the church presents Joseph often in a "bigger than life" view, to help the faith of those very new to the gospel. When one's faith is in a "seedling" state, it is quite fragile, and care must be taken not to introduce items (even historical truths) that might shake it.

However, as one's faith becomes more strong, I think it's very important to understand the entire truth, no whitewashing whatsoever - this actually results in a more mature and enduring testimony.

[bytor2112]

Somehow I think seeing Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ face to face, receiving the keys of the Aaronic and Melkezedec Priesthood under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, being instructed by Heavenly messengers, ala, Moroni and being called to open the Final Gospel Dispensation and prepare the way for the return of the Savior qualifies as .....larger than Life.

Seriously, You don't ??????????

[Maureen]

Somehow I think seeing Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ face to face, receiving the keys of the Aaronic and Melkezedec Priesthood under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, being instructed by Heavenly messengers, ala, Moroni and being called to open the Final Gospel Dispensation and prepare the way for the return of the Savior qualifies as .....larger than Life.

Seriously, You don't ??????????

If all of the above did happen, then I would expect that it is the messages and experiences from these events that would bigger than life and not the person. If this truly happened to JS, I would expect that he was being used as an instrument to forward a message from God. We should revere the message more than the messenger.

M.

[bytor2112]

If all of the above did happen, then I would expect that it is the messages and experiences from these events that would bigger than life and not the person. If this truly happened to JS, I would expect that he was being used as an instrument to forward a message from God. We should revere the message more than the messenger.

M.

So, if all of these occurrences happened to Maureen and Maureen were called upon to do this work......we shouldn't remember Maureen and reflect on her as a larger than life figure? I think anyone that Heavenly father chose for these purposes would have to be considered larger than life....JS certainly was considered by the Saints of the time in that way.

As a historical figure, he still must be viewed as a somewhat larger than life figure, whether you believe that he was a Prophet or not. He established a work that has flourished and is an incredible force for good in the world. I think he deserves the status...

There is a great book....that is a a cultural view of Joseph Smith titled Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. i am on my second time through it.......excellent work.

Edited May 8, 2012 by bytor2112

[prisonchaplain]

This is an interesting discussion--just how much veneration do God's prophets rightfully receive? Moses is probably the most venerated Jewish prophet: Moses

According to the article, the Jews of his time questioned his leadership, second-guessed the Exodus, drifted into idolatry while he communed with God, and, at the end of his life was prohibited from entering the Promised Land. To this day no one knows where Moses' grave is.

None of that suggests that prophets do not deserve honor, respect, and historic recognition. However, most of Judeo-Christian tradition seems to evidence only the mildest of earthly recognition for those who prophesy.

[Just_A_Guy]

To this day no one knows where Moses' grave is.

Mormons would tell you there's a reason for that.

[bytor2112]

None of that suggests that prophets do not deserve honor, respect, and historic recognition. However, most of Judeo-Christian tradition seems to evidence only the mildest of earthly recognition for those who prophesy.

Prophets aside....I would say Catholics revere Saints and Mary, Evangelicals revere Smith Wigglesworth and so on....

I would say that mild earthly recognition comes from the fact that most Judeo-Christians don't believe in modern Prophets.

[HEthePrimate]

This is an interesting discussion--just how much veneration do God's prophets rightfully receive? Moses is probably the most venerated Jewish prophet: Moses

According to the article, the Jews of his time questioned his leadership, second-guessed the Exodus, drifted into idolatry while he communed with God, and, at the end of his life was prohibited from entering the Promised Land. To this day no one knows where Moses' grave is.

None of that suggests that prophets do not deserve honor, respect, and historic recognition. However, most of Judeo-Christian tradition seems to evidence only the mildest of earthly recognition for those who prophesy.

Good question.

One wonders why the Church created josephsmith.net before jesuschrist.net. Of course, the 'jesuschrist.net' domain name is already taken by somebody else, but you get the point. Why have an entire site dedicated to JS and not JC? I hope I'm wrong and the Church has already made such a website, and I just don't know about it, so if anybody can point me to it, that would be great.

[bytor2112]

Good question.

One wonders why the Church created josephsmith.net before jesuschrist.net. Of course, the 'jesuschrist.net' domain name is already taken by somebody else, but you get the point. Why have an entire site dedicated to JS and not JC? I hope I'm wrong and the Church has already made such a website, and I just don't know about it, so if anybody can point me to it, that would be great.

Maybe!! Because Christ isn't so heavily scrutinized by other "Christians" and would be Mormon savers....and HE is a bit more well known.

[jerome1232]

I don't know, but this one sure has Jesus' face plastered all over it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Of course when all the non-members leave the site they change the pictures to ones of Joseph Smith instead instead, it's facade.

[HEthePrimate]

Maybe!! Because Christ isn't so heavily scrutinized by other "Christians" and would be Mormon savers....and HE is a bit more well known.

Bah! It's just name recognition. They'd know Jesus better if they bothered to read the New Testament. It amazes me how many Christians I've met who haven't read it. o_O

[prisonchaplain]

Mormons would tell you there's a reason for that.

Feel free to PM or create a new string to explain...

[Maureen]

For me, a good example is Paul the Apostle. Paul contributed much to the New Testament and his message is always on Christ. He is a very prominent figure in Church History but he is never revered more than his message.

M.

[Maureen]

Good question.

One wonders why the Church created josephsmith.net before jesuschrist.net. Of course, the 'jesuschrist.net' domain name is already taken by somebody else, but you get the point. Why have an entire site dedicated to JS and not JC? I hope I'm wrong and the Church has already made such a website, and I just don't know about it, so if anybody can point me to it, that would be great.

I beleive the Jesus Christ website can be found here:

Jesus Christ, The Son of God

M.

[Dravin]

Good question.

One wonders why the Church created josephsmith.net before jesuschrist.net. Of course, the 'jesuschrist.net' domain name is already taken by somebody else, but you get the point. Why have an entire site dedicated to JS and not JC? I hope I'm wrong and the Church has already made such a website, and I just don't know about it, so if anybody can point me to it, that would be great.

Well there is: Bible Videos - The Life of Jesus Christ - Watch Scenes from the Bible and Jesus Christ.

Though that's relatively new (the bible videos) and not www.jesuschrist.somethingorother, and not quite in the same nature. Maybe you should suggest they do something like jesusthechrist.org, you can make a suggestion here: Feedback for LDS.org Website - Comments and Suggestions, not sure if it's quite the proper entity but if anyone is interested it should make it to the right folks or they can get you the proper email to make your suggestion.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dravin

[Just_A_Guy]

Feel free to PM or create a new string to explain...

No need for a PM or a new thread--Mormons just believe that Moses was "translated"--in other words, went straight to heaven (body and all) without actually dying, like Elijah.

[Tyler90AZ]

This is an interesting discussion--just how much veneration do God's prophets rightfully receive? Moses is probably the most venerated Jewish prophet: Moses

According to the article, the Jews of his time questioned his leadership, second-guessed the Exodus, drifted into idolatry while he communed with God, and, at the end of his life was prohibited from entering the Promised Land. To this day no one knows where Moses' grave is.

None of that suggests that prophets do not deserve honor, respect, and historic recognition. However, most of Judeo-Christian tradition seems to evidence only the mildest of earthly recognition for those who prophesy.

The thing is that Prophets are only revered by their followers. None of the prophets in this dispensation or any for that matter, have been revered by the general population. They have only been revered by their followers. Even then in situations similar to the exodus they have not been revered by their followers. The followers second guessed Joseph Smith moving all the time and polygamy. Even more so the followers second guess Brigham Young when he led his own exodus.

I understand you are thinking why is Thomas S. Monson revered. Is he really? Like other prophets he is only revered by his followers. There are many sites that say outright lies about all Prophets. Furthermore, if Thomas S. Monson said all Latter-day Saints had to move to a random Island many followers would question him. If Thomas S. Monson decided to institute the original Law of Consecration many followers would question him.

With that in mind are the modern day Prophets any different then the ancient prophets?

[Maureen]

I think the biggest difference between Joseph Smith and all following prophets is that JS started it all. Joseph Smith contributed the majority of the scripture that is used as the standard works of the LDS church. It is not surprising that he is revered by the members because of this.

M.