What Do You Believe About The Holy Spirit?

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts Ray :)

[Ray]

But what are your thoughts?

Do you agree with me?

I like it when we can come to agreement, together.

But I don't like the idea of agreeing to disagree.

You can believe what you want, though.

I'd just like to know what you are thinking.

But maybe you know that about me, and that's why you don't want to talk more?

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I've been telling you what I'm thinking (so far). Was is you question exactly?

Thanks

[Ray]

Based on what I understand from what you've been saying, I think you agree with me now... or I agree with you now... but I'm not sure we agree because you didn't say you agree... you thanked me for sharing.

What I'd like is for us to agree, while we both are agreeing with God.

If you agree with what I said, then we are in agreement.

Do we agree on this? (that's my question)

[Dr T]

Ray,

Do I dont think we are saying the same thing. I just thanked you for sharing your thougths with me. If you think that the grace that we are talking about is 100% from God and we cannot add anything to that besides the acceptance and greatfulness of it-then we are in agreement. We do not have to do anything besides accept the fact that Jesus died for us and now our sins are covered and do not have to do good works to become saved. Then we agree.

[Ray]

Ray,

No I dont think we are saying the same thing. I just thanked you for sharing your thougths with me. If you think that the grace that we are talking about is 100% from God and we cannot add anything to that besides the acceptance and greatfulness of it-then we are in agreement. We do not have to do anything besides accept the fact that Jesus died for us and now our sins are covered and do not have to do good works to become saved. Then we agree.

Then I guess we don't agree on this, because not only do I believe:

... the grace we are talking about is 100% from God...

... and

... we cannot add anything to God's grace...

... even though we can show acceptance and greatfulness for God's grace...

... and...

... we must accept the fact that Jesus died for us and now our sins are covered...

... by Him... we're accountable to Jesus Christ now, because He paid the debt to our Father...

... I also believe...

... we must give God our free will...

... so that we are then doing His will, not our own will.

That's my belief.

And btw, I know we often do our own will, sometimes, but when we do we must then Repent.

... because that is God's will...

... God wants us to Repent when do our own will...

... so that we're then doing God's will, again, not our will...

And if we don't Repent, then we won't be forgiven...

... that's another belief I have.

Let God's will be done on Earth...

... as God's will is done in heaven.

Jesus prayed for that. Are you willing to honor His prayer?

[Dr T]

I don't see anything wrong with what you just said Ray. The surrendering of your will is a choice that you make in that covenant but that is not what the "grace" is. That is the outflow of the belief. The grace is that God sent His son to die for us and even though his creatures did not earn it. That's what I've taken from what I've read so far. :)

Thanks

[prisonchaplain]

in my experiances in talking with non lds i've heard several women refer to something they call 'mother's grace'. i'd like to know some definitions and/or examples of this, particularly from the non lds folks we have here. thanks so much.

I've never heard of this. Sounds Catholic (perhaps in reference to Mary).

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

in my experiances in talking with non lds i've heard several women refer to something they call 'mother's grace'. i'd like to know some definitions and/or examples of this, particularly from the non lds folks we have here. thanks so much.

I've never heard of this. Sounds Catholic (perhaps in reference to Mary).

I've never heard of 'mother's grace' either.

M.

[Gwen]

what i understand it to be, from the stories i've heard, is a time period when a mother just knows things. a grace period given for a specific reason for a specific time, and then is removed. (not techniclly limited to mother's by the way)

the most moving example of this that i heard was from a mother whose son was born with a heart defect. it was repairable by surgery, but by law heart surgery couldn't be performed on someone under a certain weight. the baby was a premature and thus they had to keep him alive until he gained enough weight. or as she said it they were praying him to the right weight. durring this time she knew things for and about her son that she could only explain by god telling her. one night she awoke from a dead sleep for no reason and just knew they had to take her son to the hospital. there was nothing apparently wrong with him but her husband supported her and they began driving there. on the way there his heart stopped beating. if they had waited till it stopped and then taken him or called the ambulance there would not have been enough time and he would have died, they needed the head start. she said that these kinds of things happend to her alot durring this time but after the surgery and all was well it seemed to be gone.

ok, so i don't tell the story well, it's been a long time since i've heard the story, and my be missing a few of the details so please don't ask me if you are confused on details of the actual medical side of the event. i think the idea of mother's grace that was being spoken of is here, and that is my point.

i guess what i'm wanting to know is....

how many other religions beleive in this concept, what is it called, and how do you explain or describe it?

[prisonchaplain]

Premonition, 'women's/mother's intuition', or, if we truly consider a gift, Pentecostals might call it a "word of knowledge." Of course the later could be experienced by men or women.

[Gwen]

i think most cultures or religions account for mother's intuition or gut instinct. but do you beleive that there could be a time frame in which the lord allows intuition to be on overload; knowledge of things even intuition can't account for? have any of you experianced or know someone who has experianced this? not just a something isn't right gut feeling, but specific directions (like this lady was to take her son to the hospital).

this question is for anyone with a thought not just PC. :)

[pushka]

Maybe at times like those, our senses are sometimes enhanced, so that we can receive these intuitive feelings...It's sad that this doesn't work in all cases tho

[Gwen]

that is what i believe about the holy spirit. that "word of knowledge" or "mother's grace" or an unexplaied sixth since, gut feeling, or anthing else that leads you to a knowledge you can not explain nor prove to anyone, yet is all the evidence and proof you will ever need. that is the power of the holy spirit. that is his job, to comfort, warn, give direction, and testify of truth. and when he does these things it is for the receiver only. everyone who is listening and beleiveing in god can receive the power of the holy spirit in these circumstances. those who have been given the gift of the holy ghost or spirit by the proper authority can have this with them at all times, not just durring those grace periods that are critical. for me to hear wonderful stories where others have felt the power of the holy ghost it uplifts and saddens me. i am sad that they don't understand that it doesn't have to go away, it could be a constant. that is what i beleive as an lds and from my experiances with the holy spirit. i know as i've said before i can not give or prove this to anyone. my whitnesses came from the holy spirit and were for me alone. if you want to know you must seek for your own faith affirming, testamony building experiances. i know no better way to explain his involvement in my life other than to relate it to what you may already know or have experianced. i hope this made some since, if not just ask.

[Ray]

I don't see anything wrong with what you just said Ray. The surrendering of your will is a choice that you make in that covenant but that is not what the "grace" is. That is the outflow of the belief. The grace is that God sent His son to die for us and even though his creatures did not earn it. That's what I've taken from what I've read so far. :)

Heh, okay, then I guess we agree, after all. But I thought you were saying something else when you said:

...we...do not have to do good works to become saved.

If our good works do not "outflow" then I'd say we're not saved... or at least won't recieve God's salvation.

We must "accept" God's grace, or gift, to be saved. Our acceptance of His offer then forms a contract.

If we don't accept His offer, or don't follow through with our agreement, then we won't receive the blessings of the contract.

[Dr T]

If we don't accept His offer, or don't follow through with our agreement, then we won't receive the blessings of the contract.

The acceptance of the gift seems understandable. Will you please tell me what you mean by the "following through with our agreement"?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Continuing to accept the free gift we received. If we stop accepting it, then we reject the gift.

Perhaps it would help if you shared your understanding:

What "gift" do you think we received, or may receive?

I stated that it's to be truly "at one" with God, and I also stated how we choose NOT to do that.

And that it's possible to do that because that is the "gift".

Or at least that's what I think of the "atonement".

What is the gift, really, from your perspective?

What do you think it does, when you receive it?

When you receive it, do you think you can later reject it?

How would you then reject it, if you did that?

I know what I think. What do you think? Are you willing to share your thoughts with the whole world?

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

Is you know, I am seeking truth. I am not a professional theologian and have a lot of questions still. What you are getting into is debated as "Once saved always saved" vs. "Able to lose your salvation." There are good verses for both sides of the debate. I'm leaning toward once really saved, then they will continue to be saved but I also respect the idea of free agency. Like I said, I'm leaning toward once saved always saved though. The gift that I've been talking about is Jesus' saving grace of washing away a person's sin and presenting them to the father as pure and clean of all sin. I think that we can make a decision to go against God's commands while saved through out imperfection yet I also believe that Jesus' sacrifice can cover any and all sins. In the end, it is Jesus' work covering all sins, past, present and future. Like I said, it seems to me that if he can't, then was his sacrifice really worth doing?

Dr. T

[Ray]

I believe I agree with your premise, Doc. Once saved a person can or will remain saved.

But if it's our will to lose our salvation, I believe we could do it. It would be possible.

But only if it's our will to lose our salvation.

God certainly doesn't want (or will) that, does He.

(that's rhetorical... I hope)

You can believe what you want to believe, of course.

:)

[rosie321]

Here are my thoughts,

The holy spirit testifies of truth

He is our companion that the Lord has given us

He testifies of Christ

Brings to our rememberance the things that we should be doing

Will lead us into righteousness.

You can know His work because it will demonstrate the fruits of the spirit (Galatians 5) It will help you to develop them in your life.

At special times he actually gives us things we need. Special tidbits or premonition type things. Things that will help us out (kind of like an indiviual prophecy? for certain situations)

The truth is always the same.

Not everyone may see it the same. Different circumstances may adapt your comprehension of it or living of it. The example above of being in an R rated movie. It will most likely not build up the fruits of the spirit in your life so you will feel a loss of the Spirit. The spirit will be there forever. Especially in the LDS view if you have recieved it in the proper way. Your commitment and actions will put you in the position of hearing correctly what it is you are supposed to be hearing.

Think of it as tuning into a radio station . The station is always playing whether you are tuned in. You may hear bits and pieces as you are tuning in. You can get the general tuning in and the fine tuning. You can bring out different sounds by the way you tune it in. Obviously your ability to hear (deafness) will also inpact your ability to tune in and understand properly what is being said.

Nothing will change the spirit or truth. It will always be there. The only variables are in our ability to tune in and our capabilities and abilities to hear at the time. Some are unable to hear the whisperings of the spirit amongst the noise.

The spirit may withdraw from us because we choose not to have it there. It may also seem to be withdrawing to teach us. Some of the most powerful lessons can be taught by silence. It really pushes people to think and do :)

[David3]

There have been two thousand different bibles written for different reasons, and some bibles are written for different denominations, and each denomination teachs doctrines differently. Some doctrines put books into the bible and others leave books out, and some change the wording around to fit better what they are saying it means. If they all do this, then how would anyone know who is telling the truth, let alone where the holy spirit is?

Maybe to answer this question we have to look at what we are tought by them, and see that most of us are lead to believe God can do, or does whatever he thinks in order to get done what he wants. In this case i dont think that it matters as to who is right or where the holy spirit is, but if God is like a father to us and has sets of rules for us, then it would matter. Then it would be a question as to would God do anything he wouldnt let us do?

With our freedom we grow up, and find our own interests. We find our nitch in life that works best for us, and normally religon isnt on the top of the list for us. We learn and we specialize in what we do best, and leave religon as a novalty. We may be interested in God, and salvation, and listen intently to those who seem to know what they are talking about, but dont actually know for sure if what they say is true or not. We put those things in our filing system to see what else may come of it, and over time may even be brainwashed into believing things that are not true though we do not know it.

For those who have had that born again experiance, and know God if real and feel blessed are those who are the hardest to convince their church may not be true, or their faith is carnal. Healers dont heal, and churchs dont save, God does, Jesus does. God comes first, then everything else is added to it, not that we should seek our own special interest as carnal man does then add God to it, because then the damage has been done by us and we are stuck in the state of being we made for ourselves. This rule was said by Jesus when a wealthy young man wanted to join him and his group of apostles, but the man couldnt give up what he had.

When i was a child, i thought like a child, and i acted like a child for childish reasons, but when i grew up i put childish things away. I put childish things away as i learned the reasoning i had to do what was asked of me by doing those things myself or putting myself in their shoes. In reality i contradicted myself from childhood, and now see it from a new viewpoint. The choices i made for my own selfish reasons where for me alone and not everyone, and one choice building upon another makes a path to its own destinations. The final outcome is not where i inteded myself to be because i was reactive, and not active or proactive. Was it the lack of explanation? Was it the lack of knowing what to do? Was it a lack of my parents? All i know is that where im at is because of what i did, and what i believed. Once i put my views in proper order and replaced my parents with God, and their guidence with the holy spirit was when i recieved my answers to correct my points of view.

At one time in my life i was going to be married, though i was interested in another women. I thought i would read the bible and see what it had to say about things, and you know it just didnt say much to convince me of anything on the subject of being married. I thought that if i were to be married and then if i didnt like it could change what i was doing, and the bible didnt give anything for this except its possible. I was friends with this other women for a short time, and i wanted to do what was right. I thought that maybe God could help me with this as i was looking for the right person for me. I asked God to show me what to do, and told him i would look for him in church the next sunday. I was going to a assembley of God type church at the time. During the week i had a dream of this other women and myself flying a old type air plane with a stick controler, and as i looked ahead i saw a brand new shinny jet aircraft. I could see this other women through the glass on her air plane, and wondered who was flying the jet. She flew off into another direction and vanished, so i went to see who was flying the jet. When i got there i saw that no one was flying the jet, and the jet had light up bottons flashing and was flying in auto pilot.

I had gone over to my mothers during the week and told her what i was doing, and told her of the dream, and when the next sunday rolled around i went to church to find my answer. The church was buzzing around, and i was looking around for a dream interpreter and couldnt find one. I thought it was strange i couldnt find a dream interpreter because this is a biblical concpet and should be a part of any church. Normally that church had the spiritual gifts part before they had guests speak but this day they had skipped it to get their speaker up on the pulpit. A evangalist stood up and said i have a very important messege for you, and said the following...... When we fly a air plane we need a owners mannual... (holding up the bible) he said..... if we fly our air plane without a owners mannual we might fly into the side of a mountain, that we were not like the holy spirit that could automatically avoid obsticals.

I shrank down in my seat as this man was looking for someone, looking around the crowed. I got a bad feeling about it, and thought about what was going on. What was between God and myself was between God and myself, and not everyone else. As i sat there and thought about it, and what i saw happen put together what God wanted me to see, as the two sides came together to meet in one place. The side from heaven, the dream, and the earth side. It just plain meant to follow the holy spirit, nothing more and nothing less. It wasnt untill later that i figured out my mother must have said something and this was what came about because of it, but it didnt matter to me as long as the true meaning came to me. Follow the holy spirit because it automatically avoids obsticles eventhough i can avoid them. Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven.

Just as the dream had shown me the other women left, and being of a carnal nature was only interested in herself and what she was after. I was married and divorced in a short time for the same reason.

It didnt have anything to do with what church i went to, nore who i listened to. It had everything to do with reading the bible and praying for answers to go in the right direction with my life. I have always found this very hard to do because i dont know anyone who has done what is done in the bible, and as i was shown couldnt help but make mistakes because of that.

The one thing i wanted to point out was that some people have very active imaginations, though im not one of them. Its either you have the holy spirit or its your imagination. How many times over the years of the dozens of time this took place in my life did i ask myself if this was my imagination? Many times. I do know that whatever way God speaks it has a biblical view to it, and not unlike the blind man who has to come into full contanct with the world in order to know what to do. The blind man cannot always avoid doing wrong, and depends on the curcomstance than anything.

Each person has chosen how they are going to get what they want out of life, cheat, steal, lie, work hard, be sneaky, work smarter and all depending on how much tollerance and patience they have. They grew up with how they chose to be, and acted on it. Depending on the individual some do never change, and remain childlike in their nature, or carnal self than others, and some learn and grow beyond this coming into contact with a contradiction of a old thought. You are exactley where you lead yourself to be by the choices you made, and are what you have made yourself to be. You specialize in who you wanted to be, and who you became. If i need a lawyer i go to a lawyer for help because im not one, and my knowlege is limited. We dont have time to be what we are not, and sometimes we put our faith in others who know more than we do. Men of God are very rare in this carnal world of selfish people, and when you need to know the truth how would you know who is who from all the men of God upon the earth to save yourself?

There is real, real spiders, real snakes, real scorpions, and then there are rubber snakes, rubber spiders, and rubber scorpions that people throw to make you react. When the rubber ones are thrown then its just dealing with fear, as its fear of what is said that makes the reaction. This is done to the point that there is no more fear and instead the reaction becomes numb, so if the real thing is thrown to you, you are not aware to be afraid for your salvation. Was is Pual who everyone thought was going to die because of the snake? There are rules for knowing the truth, but unless its lived through life and instead of only being observed there isnt anyway for anyone to know. If its not started as a child growing up with God or his wisdome then its not going to be seen no matter how hard you try. Your choices have lead you to be who you are, and so your experaince with life is going to be different from anyone who has made their choices because of God first. Did you wait for God to answer your prayer before you did what you were planning? Ill bet you didnt. I did.

After i decided to accept what God was showing me and follow the holy spirit instead of the church i was going to, or anyone i was listening to. After waching that other women leave my life just figured i was supposed to be married to the women i asked, and went for it, but forgot to ask about it. When real life had cought up with the spiritual life and everything settled back down a little i was at work. Our shop was closing down and all the employees decided to have a dinner on the last day our company would be open. When this day came i was bussey working when a friend of mine grabed me and told me i was going to miss out and drug me to the line. My friend said this feels like the last supper, and thats when the dove came down and landed on me. The dove is the spirit of God or better known as a angel or holy spirit. From my past encounters with this angel i know it says behold or in other words it says see what has taken place. Some people make the mistake and heed it as a warning, but really says without words to be prepaired. I looked around to see what was coming and since i was in the last part of the line took some time to get where the food was, and by that time thought it might be a false indication and let my gaurd down. We got our food and Earl my freind said he had just the place for us to sit, and he took me to a table and we sat to eat, and i was breaking my role when it hit me as to what had taken place. there were six long tables, and five of them were all next to each other except for the one i was sitting at, and the table i was sitting at was facing in the opposite direction from the rest. This table had no chairs on that side so everyone who got their food could get down between all the table to find a place to sit. I was sitting in the middle of this table facing everyone else. I guess i did what i was supposed to do, and followed the spirit This is also biblically sound because it describes this when jesus was baptized at the river.

[prisonchaplain]

There have been two thousand different bibles written for different reasons, and some bibles are written for different denominations, and each denomination teachs doctrines differently. Some doctrines put books into the bible and others leave books out, and some change the wording around to fit better what they are saying it means. If they all do this, then how would anyone know who is telling the truth, let alone where the holy spirit is?

Without refuting the individual facts, I'd suggest you are grossly exaggerating the amount of division amongst Christian churches, and the amount of "poetic license" that has been taken with Bible translations. Most Christian churches agree on most of what we teach. We greet one another in the name of the LORD, and expect to see each other in heaven.

As for Bible translations, if there are "1000s" that might be for 100s of languages. In other words, perhaps a dozen or less reputable translations per language. You may be thinking of editions--Men's Study Bible, Children's Study Bible, Women's Study Bible, etc. Or, that some denominations compile editions with their own scholarly notes.

Bottom-line: Not so many divisions, and not so much playing around with the Bible.

[David3]

Im not the truth seeker here, and nothing a search probably wouldnt uncover. All i will say is there is a gentalman who does a radio show, and is known for memorizing bible scripture. As he learned the bible, he also came into contact with the differences in bibles, and had to learn what was different. He now has two thousand different bibles in his collection, all in english i believe.

There are normally two kinds of people, and one being the truth seeker who takes what they hear and looks for evidence, or a disputer who points out pobable overexageration.

The holy spirit has one purpose only, and thats to confirm the word of God. The word of God being what is written in the bible, which may or may not have been changed or left out. The word of God being the inspired word of God by the spirit of God or one in the same, the holy spirit.

To use the purpose of the holy spirit or one in the same recieve the inspired word of God is to question the right and proper use of what is written and translated.

To know this is true one in the same as following Jesus even as the apostles did, is to see Jesus as the example. In other words doing what Jesus did by following the holy spirit, that is the helper he promised us. Being that the purpose of the holy spirit is to confirm the word of God, by the inspired word given by the spirit, one in the same, is to be transformed by that spirit even by the glory of God. 2 Corinthians: 3 JKV.

Since the holy spirit is to confirm the word of God in its intended meaning, and transformation is to follow even as Jesus showed those transformation within his mission for God. Transformations being and meaning conversion, one in the same, conversion by means of the holy spirit for those who care to know the truth. Those who care for their salvation.

Baptism by fire is nothing more than conviction, and anyone can be convicted by their own beliefs. This is also known as slain in the spirit, laying on of hands. One in the same.

The born again experaince is coming to know through trial and error to be christ like, in other words we are not perfect, and cant do it with our own power. When we come to recognize the truth behind forgiving others, and being forgiven because we are pwerless to change on our own. The combination of knowing things stand on our way, and we must learn from God to be christ like brings about the born again experaince through conviction of our hearts. No matter what church this takes place in, its always the same seeing someone change, and miracles happen with them. They may stop smoking, drinking, gambling in a blink of an eye, never to have those addictions again.

This being part of the transformations and only the first steps in changing, and God converting those who with to be saved. Converting is actually changing from what you are into what your going to be, and this isnt only by the spirit, but in real life to. So those transforming by means of the holy spirit seeking the truth for their salvation will all come to the same thoughts, and to the same place. This is a very different view than most would like us to know.

[Maureen]

Im not the truth seeker here, and nothing a search probably wouldnt uncover. All i will say is there is a gentalman who does a radio show, and is known for memorizing bible scripture. As he learned the bible, he also came into contact with the differences in bibles, and had to learn what was different. He now has two thousand different bibles in his collection, all in english i believe.

Well, why don't you make this search a little easier by providing this gentleman's name, so I can confirm that you know what you're talking about? Thanks!

M.

[Ray]

There are normally two kinds of people, and one being the truth seeker who takes what they hear and looks for evidence, or a disputer who points out probable overexageration.

Does looking for evidence include asking the people who believe what they say/said is the truth?

That might tell us why they believe what they say/said, but would that tell us what is true?

What do y'all think? I already know what I think. :)