What Do You Believe About The Holy Spirit?

[Princess3dward]

"If any of ye lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally"

[Dr T]

Well said Blessed. That is all I'm saying. Even your last quote, Des, does not take us out of the equation. That does not answer what we are getting at.

[Princess3dward]

But it did answer what you asked. If you ask me what you are trying to figure out normally, instead of beating arounf the bush, maybe I will understand what you are trying to say.

[Blessed]

Let me add further:So it is with the Truth. There is only one Truth. Muslims call it Allah we call it Jesus and devil worshippers call it Satan.

WHo is right? How do we know we are right?

So each of the people pray. They all pray to make sure they are worshipping the right God and know the right Truth. The "spirit" says to each one they are right.

So who is wrong or who is right? ALl have been confirmed by the spirit.

[Princess3dward]

If you can't figure it out, you will later.

This hasn't been the only religion I have been in, and although I hadn't been in every religion, I know where I stand.

I don't think the issue is who is "right or wrong".

I do know that where I am is where God wants me to be.

That is my testimony, and it has nothing to do with you.

[Dr T]

We will all figure it out in time (that is, if there is an afterlife). God wants you there/Satan wants you there. Which side of the coin, we'll see. Go read Pascal's wager.

[Guest MrsS]

Dr T and I are both looking at the same painting. It is painted in only one color. He says it is blue and I say it is white. We both can't be right.

Yes you both CAN be right. The truth for Blessed could very easily be untruth to Dr T, and both could be untruth to me.

You know it is the Holy Ghost when what He guides you towards is righteous, good and of the Heavenly Father.

Dr T you stated to Dez:

Then what do you mean by, "as long as you aren't doing anything you shouldn't."? Would he leave you? If he leaves you wouldn't he not be there with you?

The Holy Ghost can not be where there is un-righteousness. I will use my self as an example: I am a baptized and Endowed member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have been Confirmed a member and have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, if I go into a movie house that is showing an X rated movie - the Holy Ghost is going to be clunking me on the head and telling me to not do that. Then He is going to be outside the doors of the theater - because He can not step inside. He can NOT be where there is unwholesomeness, un-righteousness and sinning.

Because I do the best that I can to live a righteous life, the Holy Ghost is with me - and I am aware when He has withdrawn from me when I say, do, listen to unrighteous and unwholesome things. He never goes very far away, and when I stop doing the unwholesome thing(s), repent and pray to Heavenly Father for the return of the Holy Ghost, He is back in an instant. That prayer of repentance doesn't even have to be a long and formal prayer - it can be said in earnest on the run so to speak - as I get myself out of that theater and away from there.

Dr T quote:

K, last try. If he is with you ALWAYS but leaves you and is NOT with you then your comment is meaningless.

No her statement is not meaningless - your above quote is pyschobabble.

Dr T quote:

We will all figure it out in time (that is, if there is an afterlife). God wants you there/Satan wants you there. Which side of the coin, we'll see. Go read Pascal's wager.

Read the Book of Mormon, Bible, D & C, Pearl of Great Price. Study them, ponder and pray.

Jesus said: and this is in my own words You can not serve two masters - either you serve me or you serve Satan.

Again my words:

Jesus is goodness, wholesomeness.

Satan is lies, evil, misery.

[Dr T]

Hello MrsS,

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm going to bed now so I can't respond to all of your last post. I did want to say however that my quote is logic not psychobabble maam. It's called the law of noncontradiction. Des.'s quote violates that law. Something cannot be and not be in the same way at the same time and still be sound. To say "He is ALWAYS with me and say he LEAVES me and is not with me" is a contradiction and is not possible. Either he is or he isn't. You can't have it both ways (both being there and not being there).

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Holly3278]

He could also incarnate.

What do you mean by that?

[babygirl]

That was really was "well said," Dancer. My question would be how do you know that is not just an attribution to something outside yourself which was really a biological instinct or your "conscience" or some cognitive dissonance? I’m not disagreeing with you-I’m just curious as to how you come to that conclusion for yourself.

Thank you,

Dr. T

when you "conscience" tells you, you really want to do this...but the holly ghost says thats not what you should do...

ex: i wanted to stay home it felt right i had things there for me a job friend etc. but i couldnt get the other thought of you should go out of my head either...so i prayed and the holy ghost conferemed that i was suppose to go...so here i am in ohio and not sure why just doing so becuase i trust the holy ghost more than i trust my own thoughts...

if that makes sense, i hope so :)

[Dr T]

Hi MrsS,

Yes you both CAN be right. The truth for Blessed could very easily be untruth to Dr T, and both could be untruth to me.

I admittedly have not studied relativism at all. It might be a viable option but at first glance it does not seem to hold up. In your statement above, you seem to be ascribing to that belief. But if that is true, then “you really said nothing.” (no offense intended-let me explain). If you are saying that truth is relative, it can be true for some and not true for others, then your statement (which I suppose you think is true) doesn’t mean anything because “It might be true for you and not true for me.” It holds no truth value and therefore can be dismissed. Does that make sense to you?

I have a problem with it because I think it is possible for your sentence to be true in a select few/some cases but not with absolute truth. If you are saying that we can both be right and both be wrong while holding absolute truth, that is not a logical sentence. They CANNOT both be true. In our system of mathematics, 2 + 2 is always 4. If I came along and said, “Today, 2+2=5 we cannot say, “That is TRUE for you but 2+2=4 for me” and believe that you both have TRUTH. Your sentence can be correct in an example like this: “blond females are the most stunning people in the world” Blessed might think this is true and I disagree and say, “no, actually my wife is the most stunning person in the world and she is not blond therefore blond females are not the most stunning” and then you come and say, “No, I’m a red head and I know that redheads are the most stunning!” Ok, that might be a relative preference. But when we talk about things being and not being at the same time, in the same way, that is a contradiction when it is an impossibility. Now, if I say I am 100% rubber and I am 100% red, that is not a contradiction because it is possible to be both, at the same time with conflicting. However, there are tautologies that logically follow. A blurb from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tautology (logic)

In logic, a tautology is a statement containing more than one sub-statement, that is true regardless of the truth values of its parts. For example, the statement "Either all crows are black, or not all of them are", is a tautology, because it is true no matter what color crows are. Expressing this formally, as a proposition with X representing "All crows are black" would give

,

which is a tautology, denoted , because regardless of the truth value of X, one of the disjuncts is true, making the whole statement true. The symbol means a "generic" tautology in contexts where any old tautology will do, without being specific about exactly where the tautology lies.

A statement such as

that is always false regardless of the truth values of its parts is known as a contradiction on an inconsistency and is denoted .

In propositional logic, the symbol or may be placed before a sentence or formuale to indicate that it is a tautology. The blank to the left of the symbol means that no assumptions are required to logically deduce the material to the right of the symbol. So it is true to say:

Two key truths about tautology are 1) and 2) . So not a tautology is an inconsistency and not an inconsistency is a tautology.

If Des is saying that the Holy Spirit is always with her (connected to her, living in her, in her presence) and then says there are times when the Holy spirit is NOT with me-that is a contradiction.

The symbols did not paste here so see this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_%28logic%29

You know it is the Holy Ghost when what He guides you towards is righteous, good and of the Heavenly Father.

. I would like to believe that but it doesn’t seem to follow. What if you only have a perception that what you are doing is “godly?” It might feel right, other might benefit from it but what if it is from Satan. You might be saying, “But that is what I said, Satan cannot do that.” My question for you would be “Why not?” Why do you think that Satan cannot masquerade as an angel of light, make you feel you are ‘doing good’ while just walking down the wrong path? That would make him so happy. He might be thinking, “You are walking right into my trap and you feel like you are doing good but I’ve tricked you (bwehahahahaha)!

The Holy Ghost can not be where there is un-righteousness. I will use my self as an example: I am a baptized and Endowed member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have been Confirmed a member and have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, if I go into a movie house that is showing an X rated movie - the Holy Ghost is going to be clunking me on the head and telling me to not do that. Then He is going to be outside the doors of the theater - because He can not step inside. He can NOT be where there is unwholesomeness, un-righteousness and sinning.

My question would be, “being a human vessel, are you not unwholesome, unrighteous and a sinner?” Isn’t this world a sinful/unwholesome/unrighteous place? If it is, given your premise, how is it possible that he is on Earth? You might be right one this, I’m just learning.

Because I do the best that I can to live a righteous life, the Holy Ghost is with me - and I am aware when He has withdrawn from me when I say, do, listen to unrighteous and unwholesome things. He never goes very far away, and when I stop doing the unwholesome thing(s), repent and pray to Heavenly Father for the return of the Holy Ghost, He is back in an instant. That prayer of repentance doesn't even have to be a long and formal prayer - it can be said in earnest on the run so to speak - as I get myself out of that theater and away from there.

I think I see what you are saying and it’s starting to make sense to me. When he has departed from you, what is it that causes you to “get right” again? If he is not there leading you (because he has left you) on what do you base your decision to repent?

Read the Book of Mormon, Bible, D & C, Pearl of Great Price. Study them, ponder and pray.

I have read them and am doing that stuff.

Jesus said: and this is in my own words You can not serve two masters - either you serve me or you serve Satan.

Thanks MrsS. That is my point. You cannot serve two masters. If we begin following the dictates of our hearts, worship self, another god, or an institution, we are trying to serve two masters. That is why, “worship as you please” does not hold true for me. It seems like it would have to be a worship of the “one true God.” That is why I’m learning. If I started attending the LDS church, there better be a justifiable reason. If it is teaching falsehoods, I would begin walking down the wrong path, much to Satan’s delight.

Again my words:

Jesus is goodness, wholesomeness.

Satan is lies, evil, misery.

Again, that what makes sense. That is why I am saying, Satan can live, be malicious and cause misery by making us believe we are on the right path. He plants seeds. Satan does tell the truth. Look at his temptation of Christ. What did he do? He used scripture, word for word yet he tried to twist the meaning.

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Dr. T

[Ray]

Just one thought:

Desire' was not saying that the Holy Ghost is always with her... she was saying that is what she strives for... so there was no contradiction in what she was saying.

I just wanted to try to clear that point up. :)

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

baptised by fire

what does that mean to you Des?

Being confermed a member and getting the Holy Spirit as a gift...

Like.. he will be with you always as long as you aren't doing anything you shouldn't!

I love it when y'all start talking Pentecostal. GLORY! Don't let that fire blaze too hot, now, saints, or we might have a whole new mess of converts to deal with. Yes! Amen

[Dr T]

Thank you Ray. I dont think she was saying that. She never said, "Can be with me" but "Is." Good try. You may have read it and I missed it. I'm not going to reread it now.

Dr. T

[inthearmsofsleep]

I've had several experiences in which I could feel a direct, external "something", that I knew was the holy ghost. A while ago, I was sitting in church and they were going to do the confirmation for somebody who was just baptized. They said the prayer, and right when they said "recieve the holy ghost." I felt this spiritual energy sweep through the room, through me, as if it was rushing into that person. It was a miraculous thing to me... as I've never felt it that strongly before. Also, about a month ago... I was reading all this good stuff online, scriptures and such, and I was feeling "the spirit" very strongly... and then I got up after I turned off the computer and hit my hand on the edge of the table on accident, swore out of frustration and pain, and I immediately felt it leave. The feeling didn't just stop, I felt it withdraw from me because of what I said. This is how I know the holy ghost is not just something in our head... It's something that can come and go, visit and comfort, relay information to us, and work wonders.

[Gwen]

in my experiances in talking with non lds i've heard several women refer to something they call 'mother's grace'. i'd like to know some definitions and/or examples of this, particularly from the non lds folks we have here. thanks so much.

[Ray]

I’ll try to make this easy for you, Doc.

From Post #2:

Umm.. it (the Holy Ghost) is the comforter, and is there to guide you.

Anyone who is having a spiritual experience can feel it, but if you want him with you guiding you ALWAYS, then you need to get baptized by fire.

You then asked her what she thought it meant to be baptized by fire, and she said:

Post #5:

Being confirmed a member (of the true church of Christ) and getting the Holy Spirit as a gift (from Christ)...

Like.. he will be with you always as long as you aren't doing anything you shouldn't!

You then asked her what always meant to her, and she said:

Post #10:

Always... as in, even when I am not listening, and just walking... He will still be talking to me.

He is the only thing I can depend on, save the Saviour and Heavenly Father to never let me down, and to be there for me when I am sad.

You then asked her what she meant by saying “as long as you aren't doing anything you shouldn't, and if he (the Holy Ghost) left her, wouldn't he not be there with her?

And she said:

Post #12:

Well... duh...

If He leaves me... then no... He is no longer with me.

BUT, I could get Him back.

The idea though, is to not make really stupid choices!

And as I said, she was saying she strives to always keep him (the Holy Ghost) with her, not that he’d still be with her if he left.

And btw, I agree with what Desire' is saying, so these words have come from me as well as her.

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

So it would have been better for you to say, "He is an available resource to you but not always with you." Is that what you are saying?

[Ray]

No, that is not what I was saying... but I think you may be getting a little warmer.

I believe He's always with me, but He will leave me... if I leave Him.

He won't tag along with me if I don't really want Him with me.

If He ever withdrew from me, totally, I would be a different person.

I would then be someone who doesn't know what I know.

And if it helps, try to imagine this analogy:

Do you know there is a Sun?

Do you know the Sun is shining?

Do you know it is still shining when you don't see it?

Do you know it is still shining during night, or when it's raining?

Do you know how you feel when you feel the Sun?

Do you know how life would be if there was no Sun that's shining?

Can you imagine living life without a Sun?

I think of the Holy Ghost as a Sun, and He tells us there's a Sun.

He's in one place, and He helps us know there is a Sun.

[Dr T]

So you are saying "The HS has as effect upon you even when not directly WITH you"? But you just said, always with you not can leave you. The problem with the analogy is the sun is not "with me in the ."

[Ray]

So you are saying "The HS has as effect upon you even when not directly WITH you"? But you just said, always with you not can leave you. The problem with the analogy is the sun is not "with me in the ."

Okay, let's back up a little?

What are you thinking when you say "with you"?

Is the Sun with you even though it's far away?

I am saying that He is with me.... all the time... every day.

But I can avoid the Sun if I don't want to feel it's presence.

[Dr T]

I think I see what you are saying. As the sun is existant, it will affect the world and in that sense it is playing a role in my life. I can lock myself in a room with no windows but the sun is still there-affecting my life. Is that you are saying about the HS? If so, that I see where you are going with that line of thinking but I was taking the idea of "with" as "being in communion with." So when she was saying he is with me but not with me didn't make sense to me.

Thanks

[Ray]

Okay, now here's a thought:

As you walk in the Sun, and feel the Sun with you, do you commune with the Sun?

If so, what does that do for you?

What is the role of the Sun in your life?

Do you see a connection between feeling the Sun and works?

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

No, I do not see it as communing witht he sun. When I think of communing I think of both having effects on each other, mutually. I do not have sway over what the sun does. I can't make the sun leave me. I cannot make it not have an effect on the Earth. The sun helps me live by warmth, a key role in photosynthesis, energy, etc.

Dr. T

[Ray]

When I think of communing I think of both having effects on each other, mutually. I do not have sway over what the sun does.

Do you have any sway over what God does? If you give God your will, is it God or you doing your works?

I can't make the sun leave me.

Do you think you can make God leave you? I think it is us that leave God, while God is still always there.

I cannot make it not have an effect on the Earth.

No, but you can make it not have an effect on your own life, to a degree.

And in the same way you control what God can do with you...

... or what you can do with God...

... it's a matter of perspective.. we can never control anything that God does.

The sun helps me live by warmth, a key role in photosynthesis, energy, etc.

Yes, just as God helps you live by His light, and God plays a key role in your progression, energy, and everything you can do with your life.