Article on hetero marriage with SSA

[annewandering]

I don't get it.

lol maybe? I think you are reading different things into those comments than I am. Nevertheless I really have no idea what his exact 'orientation' is. After giving it some thoughtm it really doesnt matter as far as taking him serious goes. Both groups of people deal with ssa. He has found a way to deal with his. He is hoping to help other people deal with theirs and stay close to the gospel. Maybe it wont work out. I hope it does.

[carlimac]

lol maybe? I think you are reading different things into those comments than I am. Nevertheless I really have no idea what his exact 'orientation' is. After giving it some thoughtm it really doesnt matter as far as taking him serious goes. Both groups of people deal with ssa. He has found a way to deal with his. He is hoping to help other people deal with theirs and stay close to the gospel. Maybe it wont work out. I hope it does.

He does go into more detail about his orientation in his book "In Quiet Desperation". I hear his latest book, "Voices of Hope" is really good but I hesitate to read it for fear of appearing TOO interested in homosexuality, as was alluded to in another thread.

[Soulsearcher]

What is a "healthy relationship" with the same sex for someone with SSA? If you mean a love and physical attraction that is identical to a romantic hetero relationship, this is where the comparison breaks down.

Even though you can hardly bear me talking about Ty Mansfield, (have you read his book yet like I suggested?) he gives an alternate choice. he describes what happened to him when he had a huge crush on a guy and said he loved that guy. He knew it was wrong. He knew he could never be completely happy in a same gender relationship because he would have to give up on something that was more important to him than having sex or even a close bond with that guy. What was more important was his relationship with Heavenly Father. So his description of a "healthy relationship with the same gender", even when there is mutual attraction, is to keep their distance. To just not go there.

Also, you say "what you think you see isn't there." What exactly do you think that I think I see? What am I inventing? Do you really expect us to believe that gays are sitting down and rationally explaining the dangers of gay relationships with questioners? Where and when does this happen? Certainly not in the cyberworld. All I see out there in the media, from Hollywood, from the APA, from self asserted gays and lesbians, (besides from you- you're an exception), is the crass and angry language, the exhibition and display of the lifestyle and the hypercriticism of the likes of Ty Mansfield who say there really is another way to approach these feelings you are having. I can't believe for a minute that any gay person who is sold on the lifestyle could ever counsel a questioner in an objective manner. Maybe it's because decent people like you don't often make the media spotlight. All we see is the militant pro-gay crowd. The wishy washy homosexual is never going to make it in public. They'd be eaten alive.

There is so much misinformation out there. As I read the comments on articles like this I just have to sigh. How do people come up with some of the stuff they do? Oh that's right, from folks who don't know for sure and make it up, speculate, distort the truth for whatever impressions they want to make, or simply parrot something they've heard.

The person who wrote the above quote gives you some of your answers.

There are healthy same sex relationships. The fact you think it can't happen shows that you still just can't get past your blinders. Instead of buying into the misinformation and distorted truths why not actually listen to the people who are there.

I have no problem with you talking about Ty. I have an issue thinking he's an example of the majority. Again, if you actually listen to the people who are there instead of the few or the misinformation you get a clearer picture. I support his choices, but just like you're not going to just up and leave the LDS church to be come a catholic cause some one says it's the true way, not every one is going to have the same view of their same sex attractions. I tried TY's way, unlike you, and it was destructive to me. His methods and his final outcome harmed me and so i took a different path.

Again unless you are really sitting talking to gays you need to stop buying into the anti's and the halve truths. Stop doing what you wish others would stop doing to the church. When you stated the quote i posted from you above, remember why you said it and in response to the people you posted it about. You are exactly one of those people. You aren't gay, you aren't really close to any gays, you really don't want to listen to gays who don't buy in to Ty's view of life or who have made it work better because they haven't lived Ty's life. You are they type of person you have spoken against. When i came out i was questioning and you better believe i got a very frank introduction to same sex relationships both online and from the people i talked to in person. When i got more into the gay scene i got even more facts. The guy i have a crush on now has taught me more about gay life than i ever thought possible both from his examples and just facts he's picked up and studied. Funny thing is a lot of it isn't that different from the stuff i learned about straight relationships by spending so many years in them. There are a few differences and a bit more in the physical and bodily health aspect but not enough to be huge. I will say that i am healthier than i've ever been lol and i can attribute it to being gay . On every gay forum I'm on there are sections for coming out, health and relationship advice. As like this forum there are a variety of questions and a variety of answers, but if you think it's all fluff then i beg you to read through this site and show me only fluff. You are only exposed to that which you expose yourself, you don't see to "know for sure" you just take what little there is and make up the rest or distort the truth because it's hard to delve deeper. I don't recommend the sites i'm on to expand your view of the situation but i'm sure there are 'clean" sites that give an even better showing of what i'm speaking of, or you can ask me what i say to those who are questioning being you know me, and could get a first hand experience. Also as an example, my first boyfriend swore he was Bi. I had serious doubts being i'd seen good looking guys ask him out and hit on him and he never even looked twice at him, but any girl that showed interest and he was smitten. I wanted a relationship with him enough that i came out just to ask him out. Through the entire thing it was both of our first same sex relationship i educated him about what was coming and the challenges and down side. we both read a lot and talked to people to get a frank view of things. It turned out i was right and he was straight trying to be different by saying he was Bi, but through it all, both of us struggling with wanting something to happen trying to figure things out we delved into every fact good and bad we could to get a clear grasp on what we were getting into.

Also something to think about. You mention the public view. If you only scratch the surface of the public view, the media, the easy to find stories, the headlines the things that catch our attention because they speak to us and re-enforce our already held views then you won't learn. for me to change my view of the church i had to dig, spend hours reviewing conflicting messages and trying to understand what was really being said, who over ruled who and what the current standard was. I didn't have to do it, the church was evil and needed to burn, but i did it to have an under standing of the 'enemy'. As i read and learned i found that while i didn't agree with their stance, i could easily grow to respect it and even be ok with it in many ways. I let go of a great deal of anger and misunderstanding because i dug deep and spent the time. I went to the sources, i slowly opened my mind past what i "knew" and started asking "what don't i know" Even reading things that sounded hateful to me i was able to find something that had a redeeming quality. Being this is what you would like people to do for the church, i suggest if you are going to have such strong opinions and not actually take the word of the people going through it, minus one or two, that you actually spend a great deal of time digging and educating. You may not like it, it might make you even more set in your stance in times, but eventually you might gain more of an actual understanding rather than they surface parroting that's tends to happen due to the hot media stories and such.

I don't mean this to sounds harsh. I'm actually going by your own admission that you don't dig and don't really know a great deal. I know you want people to learn the truth about the church, and even if they don't agree or believe you'd like them to at least be respectful enough not to repeat garbage said about it. I've shown i can evolve and grow from reading fact rather than surface and i have enough respect to think you can as well if you actually step out of the shell you are in and read and explore the larger picture. Go to the source and you get closer to real understanding, I'm proof

Edited May 26, 2012 by Soulsearcher

[Hala401]

Here is a story of a couple who chose to get married with eyes wide open about his same sex attraction. It can be done.

LDS Living - Living with Same-sex Attraction: Our Story

I know someone who was married over 40 years, raised three children, has 5 grand children, and 3 great grandchildren. When his wife accidentally found out about his hidden drives, in spite of the fact that he had never acted on them, she divorced him.

None of his family talk to him in spite of the fact that to this day he says he still has not acted upon his unwanted drives, and has had the offending organs removed.

He devotes his life to the study of God, and all that it means. He seems to always have a $20 bill lurking in his wallet to give to street people.

He does not have much to do with the churchy set. But seems to show little bitterness and anger.

If my life could emulate his, I would be extremely grateful.

[carlimac]

To Soulsearcher...

I'm not really sure why you keep encouraging me to dig and research and investigate into homosexuality. No matter how much info I gather or how educated I am about it, same gender romantic or sexual relationships and marriage are still wrong. They are simply and fundamentally wrong. NO amount of education will change that for me. The people in those relationships are simply people- many talented, gracious , nice as could be but they are still living in sin. NO amount of "getting to know you" will ever change that fact.

I prefer, as long as I'm on this forum to pass along the LDS Church views on the matter which I believe are correct and right. Essentially the church leaders have said "We love them and feel great concern for their struggles but we cannot condone the breaking of the laws of chastity." That's the bottom line. I really don't know why you continue to try to argue that with me. I don't believe I have ever said or professed anything other than the LDS Church's official stance. If you feel I'm parroting untruths, perhaps you should take it up with President Monson.

You're not completely correct about me not knowing any gays. I have a good friend from high school who I recently tried to talk to on facebook. I told him I had lots of questions and had had intense and confusing discussions with people about gay marriage. He said he was open to answering any questions I had. He got as far as telling me he had been with his partner for 10 yrs. And then he fed me all the same rhetoric I've heard ad nauseum in the media and from other pro gays. Meaningless canned phrases like, "Our families certainly seem to recognize that we ( he and his partner) don't pose any risk or threat to the sanctity of their relationships", (which is true maybe in specific cases of immediate family in the year 2012, but in a general and longterm sense he couldn't be further from the truth.) But when I asked more personal questions like, "When did you leave the church?" he clammed up and wouldn't talk anymore. I decided not to even ask about when it was that he realized he had SSA. He obviously didn't want to open up any more. So here I am with this much knowledge. He was the first boy I ever slow danced with at a dance when I was 14. He asked me to dance, not the other way around. I never suspected he was anything but straight all through jr high and high school. He went out with lots of girls. So you can imagine my surprise and confusion when he turns up with a same sex partner all these years later.

So, for what it's worth, I did try to "understand" the one good friend I have who is gay, but if he's not willing to talk, then I have to glean info from strangers and online. I'm not about to ask really personal questions of the guy who cuts my hair or the random person on the streets who is obviously gay. And perhaps they aren't even gay. For example I have another friend- interior designer, effeminate, high voice, dresses "nice", walks like a girl. He's married with two kids. If he is gay , he's decided not to live the lifestyle.

So how do you suggest I inform myself besides in the media- go hang out in gay bars? NO- you're correct. I'm not going to frequent the websites you get your education from. Once when I ventured there by mistake (googling Ty Mansfield) I felt such a strong sense of evil and danger that I got clear away immediately. I live in a very conservative family oriented community. I don't hang around gay crowds, not because I wouldn't like them as individuals, but because there just aren't any around that I know of.

Are we done accusing and making assumptions about each other yet? I don't expect to change your mind and I hope that you don't expect to change mine. (You won't) I have learned a few things from you and I hope you've done the same in talking with LDS people on this fourm. But frankly I don't understand what it is you're trying to change in LDS members and what your purpose is for coming here to debate. Unless it's just entertaining.

Edited June 1, 2012 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

To Soulsearcher...

I'm not really sure why you keep encouraging me to dig and research and investigate into homosexuality. No how much info I gather or how educated I am about it, same gender romantic or sexual relationships and marriage are still wrong. They are simply and fundamentally wrong. NO amount of education will change that for me. The people in those relationships are simply people- many talented, gracious , nice as could be but they are still living in sin. NO amount of "getting to know you" will ever change that fact.

I prefer, as long as I'm on this forum to pass along the LDS Church views on the matter which I believe are correct and right. Essentially the church leaders have said "We love them and feel great concern for their struggles but we cannot condone the breaking of the laws of chastity." That's the bottom line. I really don't know why you continue to try to argue that with me. I don't believe I have ever said or professed anything other than the LDS Church's official stance. If you feel I'm parroting untruths, perhaps you should take it up with President Monson.

You're not completely correct about me not knowing any gays. I have a good friend from high school who I recently tried to talk to on facebook. I told him I had lots of questions and had had intense and confusing discussions with people about gay marriage. He said he was open to answering any questions I had. He got as far as telling me he had been with his partner for 10 yrs. And then he fed me all the same rhetoric I've heard ad nauseum in the media and from other pro gays. Meaningless canned phrases like, "Our families certainly seem to recognize that we ( he and his partner) don't pose any risk or threat to the sanctity of their relationships", (which is true maybe in specific cases of immediate family in the year 2012, but in a general and longterm sense he couldn't be further from the truth.) But when I asked more personal questions like, "When did you leave the church?" he clammed up and wouldn't talk anymore. I decided not to even ask about when it was that he realized he had SSA. He obviously didn't want to open up any more. So here I am with this much knowledge. He was the first boy I ever slow danced with at a dance when I was 14. He asked me to dance, not the other way around. I never suspected he was anything but straight all through jr high and high school. He went out with lots of girls. So you can imagine my surprise and confusion when he turns up with a same sex partner all these years later.

So, for what it's worth, I did try to "understand" the one good friend I have who is gay, but if he's not willing to talk, then I have to glean info from strangers and online. I'm not about to ask really personal questions of the guy who cuts my hair or the random person on the streets who is obviously gay. And perhaps they aren't even gay. For example I have another friend- interior designer, effeminate, high voice, dresses "nice", walks like a girl. He's married with two kids. If he is gay , he's decided not to live the lifestyle.

So how do you suggest I inform myself besides in the media- go hang out in gay bars? NO- you're correct. I'm not going to frequent the websites you get your education from. Once when I ventured there by mistake (googling Ty Mansfield) I felt such a strong sense of evil and danger that I got clear away immediately. I live in a very conservative family oriented community. I don't hang around gay crowds, not because I wouldn't like them as individuals, but because there just aren't any around that I know of.

Are we done accusing and making assumptions about each other yet? I don't expect to change your mind and I hope that you don't expect to change mine. (You won't) I have learned a few things from you and I hope you've done the same in talking with LDS people on this fourm. But frankly I don't understand what it is you're trying to change in LDS members and what your purpose is for coming here to debate. Unless it's just entertaining.

i mostly seek to educate. A lot of the comments you thrw out don't really seem to actually seem based in fact so much as assumption and hearsay.

No such thing as healthy same sex relationships for one. healthy means to me strong, positive for both people, loving supportive and long term. those exist in the same sex community, and i have seen same sex relationships that outshine devoted christian(including LDS) marriages. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them unhealthy.

The fact you say things like rhetoric and such also shows a lot. To you it's meaningless words and phrases, but to those involved it's as true as anything you have to say about your life when talking to another. No one expects you to say you don't think it's a sin, but again there are how many christian denominations speaking against the LDS, if you appreciated them or their words they would be allowed on this site with full freedom to speak. Anti's are banned from this site because of how they state their thoughts and express their opinions and with how twisted some of what they say is. You can keep your belief without a constant belittling of the other side. If i call someones testimony meaningless and canned because it tends to sound almost identical to the last 10 i heard in sacrament on fast sunday or that i see written on this site does it make it any less valid or is it similar because people have the same experiences and feelings. the fact you also have about as much sure knowledge as he does about the actual effect of his partners marriage shows you are just as willing to toss out canned phrases. No one knows for sure, both sides have a great guess but no one knows for sure, but both side speak with full assurance that they must be right.

As for your friend I'm not overly surprised as to when he clammed up. again from personal experience when questions like "when did you leave the church" come up it's always lead to either a lecture/sermon or someone thinking they have a missionary experience. when it comes up in real life i do exactly what he did cause i'm tired of it being a one side conversation. I can imagine your surprise, but i'm hoping i've lessened your confusion over why he danced with you and now has a same sex partner.

You don't have to look to far for "family friendly" resources to get some of the insight i keep suggesting you get. none of it is aimed at changing your religious view, but more aimed at showing that it's not all media hype and a massive social change. Stories of families that lost kids, wives and husbands who had to deal with sudden massive changes and they whys and aftermath both good and bad. I think there's even a webring of LDS wives and husbands, mothers and fathers who converse about all of this in very respectful but frank tones. It's the tone i seek to change and a softening of the heart rather than stance.

If i was to refer to the LDS church in the way you refer to gays in general, not only would i be banned from this site but most including you would think i was just some anti with no good intent at all. As said with Anne active listening and getting the cotton out of our ears is important. The more you see religion carry on with the whole ranting about the gay agenda and dismissing everything said, sadly the more you're going to see gays start doing what you fear. Right now there isn't an actual war on religion it's more of a " you are kinda in my way lets find a middle ground" , but with more and more fringe and not so fringe leaders declaring war on gays and even the rights a good number of people on here think should be ok, that war really could come to pass and while i think religion will win i don't think it will go well for either side and i don't think either side will recover back to where they were.

It's the tone and listening i seek to work on and that's why i am here, i have learned a great deal from digging. If i just stuck with my original thoughts which had been proved time and time again with the church members i knew, i may very well have been other places doing work actively against the church. Expanding ones references can provide a whole new world of understanding, but either we are open to it or we just stay in one place and refuse to grow. I myself thought there was a message of personal growth in the gospel, but i could be wrong on that being just one of theose pro gay people

[carlimac]

i mostly seek to educate. A lot of the comments you thrw out don't really seem to actually seem based in fact so much as assumption and hearsay.

No such thing as healthy same sex relationships for one. healthy means to me strong, positive for both people, loving supportive and long term. those exist in the same sex community, and i have seen same sex relationships that outshine devoted christian(including LDS) marriages. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them unhealthy.

The fact you say things like rhetoric and such also shows a lot. To you it's meaningless words and phrases, but to those involved it's as true as anything you have to say about your life when talking to another. No one expects you to say you don't think it's a sin, but again there are how many christian denominations speaking against the LDS, if you appreciated them or their words they would be allowed on this site with full freedom to speak. Anti's are banned from this site because of how they state their thoughts and express their opinions and with how twisted some of what they say is. You can keep your belief without a constant belittling of the other side. If i call someones testimony meaningless and canned because it tends to sound almost identical to the last 10 i heard in sacrament on fast sunday or that i see written on this site does it make it any less valid or is it similar because people have the same experiences and feelings. the fact you also have about as much sure knowledge as he does about the actual effect of his partners marriage shows you are just as willing to toss out canned phrases. No one knows for sure, both sides have a great guess but no one knows for sure, but both side speak with full assurance that they must be right.

As for your friend I'm not overly surprised as to when he clammed up. again from personal experience when questions like "when did you leave the church" come up it's always lead to either a lecture/sermon or someone thinking they have a missionary experience. when it comes up in real life i do exactly what he did cause i'm tired of it being a one side conversation. I can imagine your surprise, but i'm hoping i've lessened your confusion over why he danced with you and now has a same sex partner.

You don't have to look to far for "family friendly" resources to get some of the insight i keep suggesting you get. none of it is aimed at changing your religious view, but more aimed at showing that it's not all media hype and a massive social change. Stories of families that lost kids, wives and husbands who had to deal with sudden massive changes and they whys and aftermath both good and bad. I think there's even a webring of LDS wives and husbands, mothers and fathers who converse about all of this in very respectful but frank tones. It's the tone i seek to change and a softening of the heart rather than stance.

If i was to refer to the LDS church in the way you refer to gays in general, not only would i be banned from this site but most including you would think i was just some anti with no good intent at all. As said with Anne active listening and getting the cotton out of our ears is important. The more you see religion carry on with the whole ranting about the gay agenda and dismissing everything said, sadly the more you're going to see gays start doing what you fear. Right now there isn't an actual war on religion it's more of a " you are kinda in my way lets find a middle ground" , but with more and more fringe and not so fringe leaders declaring war on gays and even the rights a good number of people on here think should be ok, that war really could come to pass and while i think religion will win i don't think it will go well for either side and i don't think either side will recover back to where they were.

It's the tone and listening i seek to work on and that's why i am here, i have learned a great deal from digging. If i just stuck with my original thoughts which had been proved time and time again with the church members i knew, i may very well have been other places doing work actively against the church. Expanding ones references can provide a whole new world of understanding, but either we are open to it or we just stay in one place and refuse to grow. I myself thought there was a message of personal growth in the gospel, but i could be wrong on that being just one of theose pro gay people

I do disagree that same gender relationships are healthy. From my perspective (and aren't I entitled to my own perspective?) a sinful relationship can't be healthy. I don't believe it's possible for a gay relationship to be healthy emotionally, physically or spiritually. No matter how good the two people get along, no matter how much they love each other and how much fun they have and how devoted they are to each other, it's still un wholesome and unhealthy. Sorry I can't agree with you on that one. Call me close minded but...that's the way I see it. I feel my views are in full alignment with the way God sees those relationships, too. Since you don't believe in God, you have every right to see it differently.

Let's take that ever so frequently heard phrase my friend used- "We don't pose any risk or threat to the sanctity of their relationships." What in the flip does that mean anyway? It's a way of saying, "What I do is my business and doesn't affect you." Well, unfortunately, that is the biggest lie out there. It does indeed affect other people. If my next door neighbor is doing something totally sick in his bedroom, it doesn't affect me in the moment (unless I can hear it ). It doesn't diminish my own marriage. But everyone's actions, no matter how private, affect them and then affect their ability to relate to the world around them. But the fact that my friend and his partner (I DO have the ability to be friends with gays believe it or not) are pushing for gay marriage because they want it so badly for themselves DOES have a huge impact on society. If gay marriage becomes commonplace and legal nationwide, it muddies the waters of what "marriage" is, just as does divorce, adultery and abuse within marriage. When we legislate and normalize sin (remember that I consider homosexual relationships a sin? That's crucial to remember) it destroys individuals and relationships in a very real way. How? I believe it would confuse all future generations of kids. Gays living together and having sex together can't possibly teach kids what a normal good wholesome hetero marriage is. They can't show by example. That's harmful to kids who will then grow to view marriage with a skeptical eye. How would a straight boy raised in a gay setting know how to relate to women in a marriage if he has never lived with it day to day growing up? This kind of lack in a kids life in turn has the potential of bringing down and lowering the success of his own future marriage... Domino style. It will cause kids to be more self centered and focused only on satisfying their own needs rather than caring for others. This is what I believe. I'm aware that you don't agree, but this is what I have seen and learned. Kids coming out of sinful homes have major struggles to overcome! Angry fighting parents, divorce, abusive parents all have a similar negative effect on kids.

I'm really sick of this topic.

I just want you to know that I do believe that there are GOOD individual homosexuals. They are good to the core. They are as Christlike, nice, talented, productive, helpful, charitable, fun loving, humorous, and awesome as a human being can be. All the gay people I have met in person have been good people- nice to talk to, polite, even engaging in their personalities. They have good hearts. They have sincere desires to love and be loved. Unfortunately, if they engage in a same gender relationship, they are comitting sin. And that sin unfortunately taints the world- colors it a little differently. Gays don't live in a vacuum even if they think they do. No one does.

We all sin in some way and unfortunately, those sins can't help but affect people and the world around us. That's why we are all so desperately in need of Christ's atonement. He is the only one that can make things better. But He can't do that if we continue to willfully sin and not make one iota of effort to correct our wrongs. He still loves us unconditionally. He has all power to strengthen us in our weaknesses. He won't always take our hardships away. He may or may not cure someones homosexuality or other weakness, but He will make those struggles easier to deal with in a postitive way- to minimize their effect in our lives. I believe that with all my heart. But He can't ultmately save us and allow us to live in His kingdom (no unclean thing can dwell there) unless we humbly come before him and do our best to give up our sins. That would make a mockery of his death and sacrifice for us if He just saved us as we continue to thumb our noses at His commandments .

I'm done.

Edited May 27, 2012 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

I do disagree that same gender relationships are healthy. From my perspective (and aren't I entitled to my own perspective?) a sinful relationship can't be healthy. I don't believe it's possible for a gay relationship to be healthy emotionally, physically or spiritually. No matter how good the two people get along, no matter how much they love each other and how much fun they have and how devoted they are to each other, it's still un wholesome and unhealthy. Sorry I can't agree with you on that one. Call me close minded but...that's the way I see it. I feel my views are in full alignment with the way God sees those relationships, too. Since you don't believe in God, you have every right to see it differently.

Let's take that ever so frequently heard phrase my friend used- "We don't pose any risk or threat to the sanctity of their relationships." What in the flip does that mean anyway? It's a way of saying, "What I do is my business and doesn't affect you." Well, unfortunately, that is the biggest lie out there. It does indeed affect other people. If my next door neighbor is doing something totally sick in his bedroom, it doesn't affect me in the moment (unless I can hear it ). It doesn't diminish my own marriage. But everyone's actions, no matter how private, affect them and then affect their ability to relate to the world around them. But the fact that my friend and his partner (I DO have the ability to be friends with gays believe it or not) are pushing for gay marriage because they want it so badly for themselves DOES have a huge impact on society. If gay marriage becomes commonplace and legal nationwide, it muddies the waters of what "marriage" is, just as does divorce, adultery and abuse within marriage. When we legislate and normalize sin (remember that I consider homosexual relationships a sin? That's crucial to remember) it destroys individuals and relationships in a very real way. How? I believe it would confuse all future generations of kids. Gays living together and having sex together can't possibly teach kids what a normal good wholesome hetero marriage is. They can't show by example. That's harmful to kids who will then grow to view marriage with a skeptical eye. How would a straight boy raised in a gay setting know how to relate to women in a marriage if he has never lived with it day to day growing up? This kind of lack in a kids life in turn has the potential of bringing down and lowering the success of his own future marriage... Domino style. It will cause kids to be more self centered and focused only on satisfying their own needs rather than caring for others. This is what I believe. I'm aware that you don't agree, but this is what I have seen and learned. Kids coming out of sinful homes have major struggles to overcome! Angry fighting parents, divorce, abusive parents all have a similar negative effect on kids.

I'm really sick of this topic.

I just want you to know that I do believe that there are GOOD individual homosexuals. They are good to the core. They are as Christlike, nice, talented, productive, helpful, charitable, fun loving, humorous, and awesome as a human being can be. All the gay people I have met in person have been good people- nice to talk to, polite, even engaging in their personalities. They have good hearts. They have sincere desires to love and be loved. Unfortunately, if they engage in a same gender relationship, they are comitting sin. And that sin unfortunately taints the world- colors it a little differently. Gays don't live in a vacuum even if they think they do. No one does.

We all sin in some way and unfortunately, those sins can't help but affect people and the world around us. That's why we are all so desperately in need of Christ's atonement. He is the only one that can make things better. But He can't do that if we continue to willfully sin and not make one iota of effort to correct our wrongs. He still loves us unconditionally. He has all power to strengthen us in our weaknesses. He won't always take our hardships away. He may or may not cure someones homosexuality or other weakness, but He will make those struggles easier to deal with in a postitive way- to minimize their effect in our lives. I believe that with all my heart. But He can't ultmately save us and allow us to live in His kingdom (no unclean thing can dwell there) unless we humbly come before him and do our best to give up our sins. That would make a mockery of his death and sacrifice for us if He just saved us as we continue to thumb our noses at His commandments .

I'm done.

Well if that's how you see it at least i know it's not possible to have an open minded discussion with you. I also know now you didn't mean the stuff you said in the opening post of your other thread and i know to take your words with a little caution. i think it's good to know these things. I do wonder though you can ask of others what you aren't willing to give, but i guess i have also learned the answer to that :)

[carlimac]

Well if that's how you see it at least i know it's not possible to have an open minded discussion with you. I also know now you didn't mean the stuff you said in the opening post of your other thread and i know to take your words with a little caution. i think it's good to know these things. I do wonder though you can ask of others what you aren't willing to give, but i guess i have also learned the answer to that :)

You're not terribly open minded yourself, ya know.

[carlimac]

I do wonder though you can ask of others what you aren't willing to give, but i guess i have also learned the answer to that :)

What am I asking of others? And what am I being asked to give? You've lost me.

[Soulsearcher]

You're not terribly open minded yourself, ya know.

I think the support and willingness to understand and even defend the LDS stance even though i don't agree and even saying i wish to protect them, would show a willingness to be open minded and to show respect. Open mindedness doesn't require agreement, just a willingness to be respectful and possibly even kind. you've told a whole minority group their relationships are pretty much worthless and their hopes and desires amount to nothing but canned rhetoric. If that compares to actively seeking to understand and evolve my understanding so i'm no longer hostile to the church then you're right, i'm pretty closed minded :) If you ask for that simple respect from others and wish they'd stop speaking ill of what you hold dear, might it not be a consideration to extend the behavior you desire, or do you really not comprehend that you cause the same feelings that those people cause you when you read that article for the same reasons?

[Soulsearcher]

What am I asking of others? And what am I being asked to give? You've lost me.

There is so much misinformation out there. As I read the comments on articles like this I just have to sigh. How do people come up with some of the stuff they do? Oh that's right, from folks who don't know for sure and make it up, speculate, distort the truth for whatever impressions they want to make, or simply parrot something they've heard.

You want people to just stop talking trash, to stop buying into the hype that's out there, the rumors, the fact that's not fact. You want respect and you don't want people tearing down what you hold dear. Are you just as willing to give it? Believe it or not, you are the person you described in that quote. Your attitudes on gays can be summed up in those few lines, but it's ok cause you are in the right...problem is those people you whose opinions didn't like are just like you, right and will never be wrong. This is what happens when one won't open their mind to the other side and just really listen, they throw dirt on someone else and don't really care about it.

[carlimac]

You want people to just stop talking trash, to stop buying into the hype that's out there, the rumors, the fact that's not fact. You want respect and you don't want people tearing down what you hold dear. Are you just as willing to give it? Believe it or not, you are the person you described in that quote. Your attitudes on gays can be summed up in those few lines, but it's ok cause you are in the right...problem is those people you whose opinions didn't like are just like you, right and will never be wrong. This is what happens when one won't open their mind to the other side and just really listen, they throw dirt on someone else and don't really care about it.

I'm really sorry Soulsearcher. Yes, it appears as if I'm perpetuating false information, that I think I'm always right and I'm stubbornly digging in my heels to keep from understanding gay issues. From your point of view that's what I'm doing. What you don't know and recognize is that I've done far more research and reading than you give me credit for (much to the dismay of my husband. He was a little worried for awhile that I'm always so interested in controversies surrounding gay and lesbian issues.) No, I'm not a closet lesbian or even bi. But I AM concerned that this is such a divisive issue. I am heartsick that people on both sides of the issue can be so mean spirited and so unwilling to see the other's point of view. I'm sad and feel wretched for anyone facing a life of lonliness because of wanting to live the Gospel but having SSA. I have read stories of parents of gay kids, I've read about Matthew Sheperd and about kids who've committed suicide. I've watched the videos coming out of BYU and by the parents of those students. I've noticed the rapture on the faces of two elderly ladies who finally were able to get married in NY. Sweet old ladies. I can imagine how ruffled the gay community would get if I were to stand on a soapbox and face them in person and say what I've said- that they are sinning and living in unhealthy relationships. It would make me angry if someone said that about MY relationships.

But here's the thing. I didn't make any of it up. My beliefs and perspctive are solidly grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in what our church leaders have said about gay marriage and same gender sexual and romantic relationships. I went to church today feeling sad about this conflict with you- even doubting my personal conviction. But by some small miracle, innumerable topics came up today in church not dealing directly with homosexuality, but with keeping the commandments, and with what happens to our thought processes in the absense of faith in spiritual things, and with what happens when we allow ourselves to be influenced by our lusts and the trends of the world. The Holy Ghost bore a strong witness to me in my heart and mind that what our church leaders have told us about this is true. Am I right? Absolutely, but it's not coming from ME. It's coming from Heavenly Father. Am I parroting what I've heard? Absolutely and I trust the source above any other for finding the truth.

If you don't believe in God, in scriptures, in our prophets and church leaders, if you're not willing to listen to the promptings of the Holy Ghost, then I don't see how it's possible to see things from my perspective. And even though no offense was meant in anything I've said (really, I mean that sincerely), offense will be taken anyway by you and those who just see it differently. I can't do anything about that. Whether you take offense or not is up to you. But I can't deny my faith. I won't deny it. I have tried my hardest to be civil in my discussions with you. I've tried to offer what I've learned from LDS people with homosexual inclinations about positive and hopeful but alternate (from the world) ways of dealing with SSA. You have patently rejected all of it. You've said that simply because I don't have SSA I can't know what it's like. That's baloney! I know what it's like to feel intense attraction and yearning and a bond so deep that it blows your mind. I've experienced it. I've felt those feelings even towards men outside of my marriage. And that's when I've had to run as fast and as far away as possible from those men, those thoughts and yearnings, so that I don't blow it. Even though the attraction feels "special" and as natural and desirable as could be- it's WRONG. To follow through and allow it to dwell in my mind for even a minute is WRONG! It's Hard Work to keep away from those temptations, to stamp out the desire. But it's what I have to do. I know that my ultimate reward of obedience will be greater than any pleasure big or small that I might derive from pursuing a relationship that breaks God's commandments, not to mention breaking the hearts of my family.

I can't do anything more to convince you. I don't expect to change you and I would hope that you would respectfully not try to misconstrue what I've said. I wish you could see that I have only yours and all other homosexuals best interests at heart. I know you don't see it that way, but I've worn myself out trying to get you to understand. I can't do this anymore. The ball is in your court.

Edited May 27, 2012 by carlimac

[Bini]

Anatess, it frustrate me that you continue to misunderstand my post/s. I never stated that Ty was bisexual! I simply stated that in THAT particular article, he does not specify whether he is bisexual or homosexual - that is all. Please don't twist or otherwise make assumptions. My post was very clear in its inquiring.

[Guest]

Anatess, it frustrate me that you continue to misunderstand my post/s. I never stated that Ty was bisexual! I simply stated that in THAT particular article, he does not specify whether he is bisexual or homosexual - that is all. Please don't twist or otherwise make assumptions. My post was very clear in its inquiring.

I didn't twist anything you said. I only presented everything in the article (and only in the article) that leads us to understand he is homosexual. HOMO sexual. And it frustrates me that people would rather ignore those statements so they can find an easy-out justification why it made it possible for Ty to overcome it.

[Bini]

I didn't twist anything you said. I only presented everything in the article (and only in the article) that leads us to understand he is homosexual. HOMO sexual. And it frustrates me that people would rather ignore those statements so they can find an easy-out justification why it made it possible for Ty to overcome it.

Wow, you did it again here in the latter of your post.

[annewandering]

Looking at possibilities is not the same as saying anything but that there are possibilities that might have had an effect on his success. Perhaps its another language problem?

[Guest]

Wow, you did it again here in the latter of your post.

Looking at possibilities is not the same as saying anything but that there are possibilities that might have had an effect on his success. Perhaps its another language problem?

No, I don't think this is a language problem. I say that because the misunderstanding is in the perspective. Not in the misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say. My point of view and Bini's point of view are divergent.

Bini thinks that I believe she thinks Ty is bisexual. I didn't say that. And my language choice in the way I expressed myself never said that. I understand that she only "WONDERED" if Ty may have been bisexual as she doesn't see anything in the article that points to it one way or the other.

What I said was that - the possibility of Ty being bisexual is immediately debunked by the statements in the article that I quoted.

Considering the possibility that Ty is bisexual before the Spirit changed his heart to be open to women diminishes the majesty of that conversion. A bisexual man wouldn't need that conversion. He would only need to shut off one part which is not a conversion - it's just a suppression. And that is what I'm trying to get Bini to see.

But, I guess I failed. Once again.

[Soulsearcher]

I guess I'm the only one who took Ty Mansfield on his word:

"I had pretty much concluded that I probably wouldn’t marry in this life, and I had come to a place where I was okay with that. I had let go of any personal or cultural pressure to marry and was content to stay single. "

- not something a bi-sexual would say.

"As soon as the opening prayer was given, I was completely enveloped by this spiritual feeling. I hardly remember anything that was said during the session, but the feeling was unlike anything I’ve ever felt. For nearly two hours, all the hurt, the pain, the confusion, the frustration were completely gone. In their place was this feeling of divine love I had also never experienced. As a part of that, there was a feeling of what I perceived as pure celestial love and desire to be with a daughter of God in the most holy, connected, and uniting of ways. The world’s portrayal of love and romance seemed so shallow and “false” in comparison. With the feeling came the words: “Just stay with me. If you do, this is the feeling you will someday feel—and it will be a permanent part of your being.” "

Why would he say that if he was bi? Oh, I see. If he was touched by the Spirit and given a way to fulfill his desire to live the Celestial Law fully, then he must have been a bi, he just didn't know it. Bah Humbug.

One more:

"I experienced some gradual change over time as I continued to try to stay close to and be led by the Spirit and as I sought other various means of personal growth. "

- Yep. He was bi. He was just delusional thinking he was homo in the first place.

And lastly:

“I think so many people rely on their hormones and/or their emotions to drive them that they get stuck feeling for their spouse whatever those things tell them to feel. And then if they try to feel otherwise, to love their spouse more than what hormones or emotions tell them to, they feel like they’re doing their spouse a favor rather than recognizing that they hadn’t understood how to truly love in the first place."

- Yep. He didn't rely on his hormones to drive him. But no, he's still bi coz he managed the feat of marrying and having a kid with Danielle.

I don't get it.

Actually, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, none of those specifically state he's is/was homosexual vs bisexual. remember the article says same sex attraction. Bisexual people have same sex attraction and really that's all the article says he "over came". With the church's push on not identifying as gay or homosexual it does leave a gap in clearly understanding exactly where a person stands.

The quotes you provide above can very easily be explained to describe a bi sexual person, more so one who is in a highly religious family. Any sign of same sex attraction in a LDS youth can cause a great deal of fear and confusion and explain many of the thoughts expressed in your quotes. The become even more clear when he mentions his relationship with another man, if this was his first strong relationship it would lead to more confusion.

again it's not a matter of not taking him at his word because he never said he was homosexual from what i saw, the most he said was he has/had same sex attraction, which no one here has questions, what they have questioned is if he ever had opposite sex attraction as well, which would make him bisexual vs homosexual.

[carlimac]

Actually, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, none of those specifically state he's is/was homosexual vs bisexual. remember the article says same sex attraction. Bisexual people have same sex attraction and really that's all the article says he "over came". With the church's push on not identifying as gay or homosexual it does leave a gap in clearly understanding exactly where a person stands.

The quotes you provide above can very easily be explained to describe a bi sexual person, more so one who is in a highly religious family. Any sign of same sex attraction in a LDS youth can cause a great deal of fear and confusion and explain many of the thoughts expressed in your quotes. The become even more clear when he mentions his relationship with another man, if this was his first strong relationship it would lead to more confusion.

again it's not a matter of not taking him at his word because he never said he was homosexual from what i saw, the most he said was he has/had same sex attraction, which no one here has questions, what they have questioned is if he ever had opposite sex attraction as well, which would make him bisexual vs homosexual.

Read his book.

[Soulsearcher]

Read his book.

LOL read the sites i told you to

[skalenfehl]

Five pages of splitting hairs. What matters most is what he experienced at General Conference and what the Lord taught him.

"As soon as the opening prayer was given, I was completely enveloped by this spiritual feeling. I hardly remember anything that was said during the session, but the feeling was unlike anything I’ve ever felt. For nearly two hours, all the hurt, the pain, the confusion, the frustration were completely gone. In their place was this feeling of divine love I had also never experienced. As a part of that, there was a feeling of what I perceived as pure celestial love and desire to be with a daughter of God in the most holy, connected, and uniting of ways. The world’s portrayal of love and romance seemed so shallow and “false” in comparison. With the feeling came the words: “Just stay with me. If you do, this is the feeling you will someday feel—and it will be a permanent part of your being.”"

The Lord doesn't care if you're gay, bi, straight, black, brown, white, porn addict, liar, thief, alcoholic, scholar, and a million other things. The Lord does care that we come unto Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. He cares that we are diligently obedient to all of his commandments. This also includes home teaching, tithe paying, temple attending, personal praying, daily scripture reading and much more. In case anyone has forgotten, all Latter Day Saints are still under condemnation.

[carlimac]

LOL read the sites i told you to

I'm just referring to the question of his orientation. He talks more about it in his book.

[MorningStar]

You would think that bisexual people wouldn't have it any harder than hetersexual people when it comes to getting married because we all have to make the decision to be faithful to one person. To me it sounds like the article addresses a homosexual man who found it possible to get married despite not being attracted to women.

[Guest]

You would think that bisexual people wouldn't have it any harder than hetersexual people when it comes to getting married because we all have to make the decision to be faithful to one person. To me it sounds like the article addresses a homosexual man who found it possible to get married despite not being attracted to women.

Morningstar. Finally. Somebody who understands what I'm saying.

Here's a chocolate chip cookie as big as a Mac truck. Take it. It's yours.