Why does God seem to look away and let it happen?

[Arnolt]

Well, as I am not sure where to place this here between all the threads, I have decided to do it here. Yesterday I was watching TV and there was a report about old criminal cases. One of them happened in the near of Munich in the year 1922. A whole farmers family (seven persons, including children) was murdered by a still unkown murderer with a pickax. It was assumed that the murderer came from the near surrounding there and his motive was some kind of honor killing and jealousy but could never be found because the police made a great number of mistakes in investigating that case.

After the forensic jurisprudence at that time they reported that the seven years old girl, that was killed the same way as the other persons (by impacting their heads), still had been survived for about two hours after she was hit and in a state of agony teared her hair and held it in her cramped little hands when she was dead. Well, and then I remebered another case, about ten years ago here in Germany, when a young girl of 12 years of age was kidnapped and locked up in a box under the earth to press money from the parents. The girl died in that box. Later it was in the news, that she certainly died in a calm way, because oxygen deficiency makes you sleepy and unconcious before death.

Well, only two examples from out of millions in the history. And now I should ask: why has God allowed those things to happen? Why has he allowed to get the poor children and women (who were once beeing hunted and prosecuted as "witches") becoming tortured that way? And why does he allow all those things to happen? By the way, I have also seen many crime reports about events that happened in the USA, for example in the North-West area, State of Washington, where a farmer murdered more than twenty or thirty young prostitutes after inviting them to his home and promised them to give some "stuff" (drugs) they desperately needed...

Where can we find the answer? I mean, is God a hasardeur, is God that kind of a supernatural being that doesn lay his hands over the tortured ones to protect them and to hold the pain away? I would be interested to get some LDS perceptions...

Edited June 24, 2012 by Arnolt

[searching_questioner]

I'm almost a little surprised and puzzled when people ask the why question. What hope is there of ever getting an answer to that question that you can be certain is correct? How will you ever know, of all the possible answers to the why question, which one is correct? And if you wrongly conclude that a particular answer is correct, when in fact it is not, based on that false conclusion, you may well end up on a path that will lead you in the wrong direction. And if you do come up with an answer that you think might be correct, how will knowing that answer change things in your life? What difference will knowing the answer to that question make in your life? So often I hear variations on the question of why does God allow bad things to happen. Regardless of what the answer is, our response, to all things, good or bad, should be the same - to continue being the best person we can be, to continue living the gospel as best we are able, to continue to do all those things that we know to be right, good and true. Our course in life should not be greatly impacted by finding the answer to the why question. Have faith that God knows what He is doing, don't spend valuable time and energy in searching for an answer to a question when that answer should have no impact, and simply continue to press on, regardless of what life throws up at you. The best response to the question of "why does God allow bad things to happen" are why does it matter why it happened - I need to continue on the straight and narrow path regardless of what has happened.

[Arnolt]

Not a bad answer, but sorry not satisfying me completely. I can hardly accept to walk through this narrow path in this life and keep my eyes closed all the time in spite of all those crueful things happen around right now and happened in the past. I want to rise and to defy HIM by this question. Why shouldn't I? I don't thing HE ever wanted to create a non-reflecting being, and I believe that this question might be one of the most important ones, because it has to do with the profoundest question of faith. I could try to give you one answer, my answer, because I have already found an answer for myself, and I think it has brought me a bit nearer to reconcile with him, made me more understanding of his allmightyness, and the answer seems to be so simple for me, but on the other hand it makes me fear... let's see, let's fathom it...

Searching Questioner: " What difference will knowing the answer to that question make in your life? So often I hear variations on the question of why does God allow bad things to happen"

And why shouldn't we try to search for an answer? As long as one is still having that strange thing in his head that perhaps might be called brain, he should not cease from "mental strife" in finding out the will of God and his nature or supernatural existence. I believe that LDS ist the most progressive attempt to recognize God within the Christian believe. More than all the others. Why shouldn't we find an answer? One day maybe we are going to travel between the stars, and I don't mean only a simple reach out to the Mars... no, I mean interstellar journeys between solar systems and galaxies, and travelling through space time (not trough "time", but through space by using relativistic or quantum effects to our favour)... why should we get shipwrecked on the question why God apparently allows bad and crueful things to happen?

Edited June 24, 2012 by Arnolt

[Traveler]

Arnolt: As a scientist I have learned that there are very few answers to anything at the micro level. It would seem that in quantum mechanics there are times that the rules of physics in our stable universe are severally displaced. Likewise we seem to be able to find many moments in history that moral spiritual values are also severally violated. But that is because in the greater perspective of eternity we do not see or understand the basic spiritual principles of justice and mercy.

Part of the doctrine of the fall of mankind touches on the mortal injustice of pain and suffering. What we are to understand from a religious standpoint is that pain and suffering are necessary in order to achieve the knowledge of good and evil. Your post has centered on evil and the consequences of existing in a condition where evil is allowed in order that we may experience it – both directly to us and indirectly through others. The good news is that because of Jesus Christ – both justice and mercy will overcome the effects of evil that comes upon us in mortality; so that our experience with evil will or can in essence only be temporary. Thus through the redemption and atonement of Christ we can also experience good and at the “final judgment” thus demonstrating to G-d and all mankind if we prefer to be governed in eternity by good or evil.

The Traveler

[Martain]

Dear Arnolt,

Although I too am saddened when I hear of such evil, the questions you're heart is asking are good and I'm glad you're asking them. The answers are available to those who seek them. I know because I sought and then found them. It makes all the difference in the world and the knowledge I now have is very comforting.

Would I be correct in restating your question as the following?

"How do I reconcile the image of an All-Powerul, All-Knowing, Just and Loving God with the image of a God who allows such evil and injustice to occur without preventing it?"

"If God knows everything and has the power to stop such things from happening, if he really loves us, wouldn't he prevent such things from happening?"

I wish I could write out the answer to your question in simple neat and concise worded response which I could then present to you. After an hour of attempting to do just that I found I could not. There are doctrines I would need to teach you first each of which could easily occupy pages and pages of replies back and forth. I would have many different questions to ask you and you would invariably have other questions as well.

As you are not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do you want to know what it is that we know and understand that grants us the peace and comfort I speak of?

Who would you rather have answer your questions? An individual who is officially authorized to act as a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or an anonymous poster on an online web forum?

A serious question deserves a serious answer. Are you serious enough in the asking of this question that you'd spend the time to allow someone to truly answer your questions fully and completely? If so are you willing to let someone come to your home to do so?

Edited June 24, 2012 by Martain

[Misshalfway]

I appreciate this thread. Maybe its because I've grappled with these questions. Maybe it's because even though I find substantial answers, my mind still needs to grapple...

I don't know always what God is doing with all of us here on earth. I appreciate the parts of LDS doctrine that help me understand that experience and pain are the best teachers and that opposition in all things is wisdom. But I also understand the quaking inside of myself when I pass through sufferings that seems senseless as I wonder why salvation didn't come.

What helps me is finding meaning in the suffering. I know I've felt like God has abandoned me. I know I've beat upon His chest with my fists asking why. I've been in that place where intellectual and doctrinal placations didn't make a dent. BUT...I've also been in that place where I've been so profoundly grateful that God didn't intervene...that he didn't "save" me. Grateful because I grew so much in my knowledge and in my very breadth as a being.

I think it's normal to feel the cries of injustice from within. And it's normal to wonder if anyone cares or protest against all the abandonment. But it also forces us to look beyond into wisdom and transcendence. At the end of the day, I really think this growth is why God doesn't interfere with our earthly lessons. And I also think that often he leaves the saving to us. Will we reach out to the hands who hang low and seek to support the feeble knees? Maybe if God got too involved, we'd fail in this area too.

[JesusParadox]

To be honest Arnold, that is stuff that is a spiritual killer. That is why when I am trying to be spiritual I avoid it like the plague.

Here is something else to think about: what about the concentration camps? Why did that have to happen? Then once you read books about it you seen people went back to their animal instincts. There was no God in those camps, just animals trying to survive.

[Misshalfway]

To be honest Arnold, that is stuff that is a spiritual killer. That is why when I am trying to be spiritual I avoid it like the plague.

Here is something else to think about: what about the concentration camps? Why did that have to happen? Then once you read books about it you seen people went back to their animal instincts. There was no God in those camps, just animals trying to survive.

Hm. This is an interesting post.

While I respect your position, it's like you see spirituality as something so fragile that it can't stand any opposition. How exactly are we to develop spirituality and faith if we never have any of it tested? If we never have to pass through doubt and fear? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what you are trying to "avoid like the plague".

And really? Is that the only thing that came out of concentration camps?

[JesusParadox]

While I respect your position, it's like you see spirituality as something so fragile that it can't stand any opposition.

I like you Misshalfway, I really do. Statements like that are so refreshing.

[Arnolt]

Arnolt: As a scientist I have learned that there are very few answers to anything at the micro level. It would seem that in quantum mechanics there are times that the rules of physics in our stable universe are severally displaced. Likewise we seem to be able to find many moments in history that moral spiritual values are also severally violated. But that is because in the greater perspective of eternity we do not see or understand the basic spiritual principles of justice and mercy.

Part of the doctrine of the fall of mankind touches on the mortal injustice of pain and suffering. What we are to understand from a religious standpoint is that pain and suffering are necessary in order to achieve the knowledge of good and evil. Your post has centered on evil and the consequences of existing in a condition where evil is allowed in order that we may experience it – both directly to us and indirectly through others. The good news is that because of Jesus Christ – both justice and mercy will overcome the effects of evil that comes upon us in mortality; so that our experience with evil will or can in essence only be temporary. Thus through the redemption and atonement of Christ we can also experience good and at the “final judgment” thus demonstrating to G-d and all mankind if we prefer to be governed in eternity by good or evil.

The Traveler

Yes, there are very view answers to anything at the micro level yet. But the research continues and maybe one day we will get more answers. I agree that in that greater perspective of eternity we don't see or understand the basic spiritual principles of justice and mercy, as you say. Yes, my post has centered on evil. And our mortal existence or condition might allow the evil to influence us and to assault us and to occur to us. I do hope that once the effects of evil will be overbeared or surmounted one day. Thanks for your helpful words.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Arnolt

[Arnolt]

Dear Arnolt,

Although I too am saddened when I hear of such evil, the questions you're heart is asking are good and I'm glad you're asking them. The answers are available to those who seek them. I know because I sought and then found them. It makes all the difference in the world and the knowledge I now have is very comforting.

Would I be correct in restating your question as the following?

"How do I reconcile the image of an All-Powerul, All-Knowing, Just and Loving God with the image of a God who allows such evil and injustice to occur without preventing it?"

"If God knows everything and has the power to stop such things from happening, if he really loves us, wouldn't he prevent such things from happening?"

I wish I could write out the answer to your question in simple neat and concise worded response which I could then present to you. After an hour of attempting to do just that I found I could not. There are doctrines I would need to teach you first each of which could easily occupy pages and pages of replies back and forth. I would have many different questions to ask you and you would invariably have other questions as well.

As you are not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do you want to know what it is that we know and understand that grants us the peace and comfort I speak of?

Who would you rather have answer your questions? An individual who is officially authorized to act as a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or an anonymous poster on an online web forum?

A serious question deserves a serious answer. Are you serious enough in the asking of this question that you'd spend the time to allow someone to truly answer your questions fully and completely? If so are you willing to let someone come to your home to do so?

Thank you for your post. To be honest, the missionaries were visiting me several times over a quite long period. It all started about six years ago, when I experienced something strange on my way from the supermarket to my home. You know that "Heaven and Hell" game children often play in the street, where they mark fields with a peace of chalk and than jump into one or the other field and hope to reach "Heaven" instead to land in "Hell"? It was in the evening and I went over that fields and markings, and I could read one sentence written very clearly above at the top of the fields. "Du brauchst Gott". I recognized it but I didn't care as much and went on. In the late evening it couldn't get it out of my mind. Next morning I went back to that place in the street, but at night it had been raining extremely and I could not find a single mark any more. Absolutely nothing. Everything was washed away, except one name written on the wall in an alley of the old house on the other side of the street. The name of a girl who has been in a special clinic here in Schleswig-Holstein from the days of her youth on because of schizophrenic disease and who I know.

So it all started. I think I'm still proceeding. Because of my disease I have not been able to join the weekly ceremony on Sundays, and they invited me so often. And even dates for baptizing were sceduled, and one day the Bishop came here. Later I met even the Mission President when I was in the parish house. But I have become used in drinking, and in combination with my disease it makes me unable to go out except for food and drinking. Even the physicians I haven't consultated for years now. They might leave me alone. What about the words of the Prussian King (Friedrich der Große) when he once was said to have called to his men in a battle to make them going forward: "H..., wollt ihr ewig leben? I am not sure I would. But on the other hand fatalism is not that kind of characterizing me. Perhaps I will stand up one day again. I lay it in HIS hands. It's so easy if you don't fear... but who can say I don't? A coward like me who wouldn't even step into a plane and who is afraid of using an elevator...

Edited June 24, 2012 by Arnolt

[annewandering]

eehh. its not hard to answer the question. He doesnt interfere because we told Him we didnt want Him to, on the whole. We are not here to prove God and we knew that. We are here to prove ourselves.

[Sicily510]

Gibt es einen Gott ?

Bertold Brecht (1898-1956)

Dramatiker, Lyriker und Theatermann

Bertolt Brecht schreibt in seinen "Geschichten vom Herrn Keuner" :

Einer fragte Herrn K., ob es einen Gott gäbe.

Herr K. sagte: "Ich rate dir, nachzudenken, ob dein Verhalten je nach der Antwort auf diese Frage sich ändern würde.

Würde es sich nicht ändern, dann können wir die Frage fallen lassen.

Würde es sich ändern, dann kann ich dir wenigstens noch so weit behilflich sein, dass ich dir sage, du hast dich schon entschieden:

Du brauchst einen Gott."

Translated to English:

Is there a God?

Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956)

Playwright, poet and man of the theater

Bertolt Brecht wrote in his "Stories of Mr. Keuner"

One asked Mr. K. whether there is a God.

Mr. K. said, "I advise you to think about whether your behavior would change depending on the answer to this question.

Would it not be changed, then we can drop the question.

Would it change, then I can give you at least still be so much help that I tell you, you've already decided:

You need a God. "

This is interesting and enlightening because I have experienced times where I felt Heavenly Father (God) was not with me not because he didn't want to be but because I chose not to allow him to be.

Heavenly Father (God) is the essence of righteousness and good, he can only exist if we believe and follow in his son Jesus Christ and if in doubt will make him inexistent for individuals who choose not be believers or followers of his begotten son.

Isn't our spirit a speculation beyond life's comprehensions? We are "Intelligent" not because it was created but because it is our inheritance from our Heavenly Father. So, when it becomes apparent to individuals to ask "Why" in nature of things pertaining to others or environments than their own. I would think that the question is "Why" indirectly to one.

I've been in a circumstance where I asked why was I abused and why was I born into a family that was corrupted. Why were all these bad things happening to me at a very young age? These are questions that I've felt obligated to find out, and when I found out I was hurt and angry. I had no one to trust in; I had no one to give me hope and inspiration to be of good nature. I started realizing that I was miserable because I chose to do bad things to reconcile for happiness that didn't exist in the first place. My family was a masquerade of happiness, I was thinking we were one big happy family but confused at the bad things that were happening.

After all these circumstances and incidents I find myself needing Heavenly Father (God) not temporarily but I seek inevitably for him because he is true and divine happiness. And through Jesus Christ, the one and only begotten son, I will be able to become holy and worthy depending on my good works, deeds, and thoughts that correlate to the teachings and gospel.

Life is not a dream but a reality that we can choose to live freely at our own risk or at our own gain. As much as Heavenly father is real so is the adversary, the adversary is bound to tempt us because he wants to rule over us. What a blessing to be able to know such things so plain, so evident right or wrong, good or bad. As human nature we are prone to make mistakes but are we willing and capable of changing them for the better cause of our own salvation? To choose Heavenly Father is to choose to live freely to choose the adversary is to choose to be bound by Satan.

The gospel can only enlighten and strengthen our intelligence for the greater goodness and pureness of our hearts allowing us to unite and live in righteousness. To blame Heavenly Father (God) for things that are happening means we as problem creators shouldn't be equitable and accountable to solve such problems. IMO Thanks for your post.

Intelligence, Intelligences

See also Light, Light of Christ; Spirit; Truth.

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.

Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence, D&C 88:40

Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29

All intelligence is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, D&C 93:30

The glory of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36–37

Intelligence acquired in this life rises with us in the resurrection, D&C 130:18–19

The Lord rules over all the intelligences, Abr. 3:21

The Lord showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22

[Misshalfway]

Sicily510,

Sounds like your struggles have sure made you strong! Thanks for sharing.

[Martain]

Thank you for your post. To be honest, the missionaries were visiting me several times over a quite long period.

When I was originally trying to answer your question I realized that in order to fully explain my understanding regarding the answers to your question I would need you to understand the following doctrines:

The character and nature of God

The great plan of happiness

The gift of agency

The war in Heaven

The fall of Lucifer

Justice vs Mercy

The Atonement

I would want to explain the answers to the questions of:

Where did we come from?

Why we are here?

Where we are going?

How do we get there?

The answers to each of these questions and an understanding of each of these doctrines come together to form the answers to your question I have received.

Trying to teach you all of these doctrines and answer all of these questions without knowing what you've already learn or already understand and without being able to to ask quick clarifying questions is what made it seem unwise to try and answer your question via web forum.

I wish I was your next door neighbor and I could simply come over for a visit and talk with you about all these things. That method of communication would be so more efficient and effective for conveying what I want to convey.

[Misshalfway]

I remember an experience I had once.

It had been a terrible season of my life. I was alone and my soul was gutted. I was tired and seeking solace. It felt as if God had abandoned me. It felt as if he had turned his face away. And I felt pain and protest because of it.

I asked my brother for a blessing. I asked out of desperation and I purposely didn't tell him about my concerns or questions. In this blessing, it was made known to me that God had been with me all along in the most profound and tender ways. I won't share the details as this is a sacred thing for me. But the experience opened my eyes to new ways of seeing life here and our Father's influence. I just think there is so much more going on here than we recognize.

[skalenfehl]

To the OP: God gives us the freedom to choose. We can reduce the horrible choices made in the history of mankind to the smallest individual choice:

Why do I disobey my dad? Why do I disobey my mom? Why do I hurt my sister? Yes, there are consequences when I disobey or cause injury, but without the gift of choice, there is no purpose for life. The liberty to choose between good and evil, God or Satan, or to simply believe that there is no God, is still a choice. But without enticement from any "force," we cannot be persuaded to do one or the other, good or evil. Therefore there must be an opposition in all things. Otherwise we couldn't distinguish between happiness and sadness, light and dark, good and evil, etc.

The first prophet in the Book of Mormon, a direct descendant of Joseph who was old into Egypt, by the name of Lehi, explained it this way:

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Does God really allow bad things to happen on earth today? Or does he allow us to learn from our choices. If we could not be enticed by one force or another, would there be any accountability? And yet deep down we know when we have done something wrong. Are there just punishments? Let us examine another incident in the Book of Mormon:

1 And it came to pass after [Alma] had made an end of speaking unto the people many of them did believe on his words, and began to repent, and to search the scriptures.

2 But the more part of them were desirous that they might destroy Alma and Amulek; for they were angry with Alma, because of the plainness of his words unto Zeezrom; and they also said that Amulek had lied unto them, and had reviled against their law and also against their lawyers and judges.

3 And they were also angry with Alma and Amulek; and because they had testified so plainly against their wickedness, they sought to put them away privily.

4 But it came to pass that they did not; but they took them and bound them with strong cords, and took them before the chief judge of the land.

5 And the people went forth and witnessed against them—testifying that they had reviled against the law, and their lawyers and judges of the land, and also of all the people that were in the land; and also testified that there was but one God, and that he should send his Son among the people, but he should not save them; and many such things did the people testify against Alma and Amulek. Now this was done before the chief judge of the land.

6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

7 And it came to pass that he began to cry unto the people, saying: Behold, I am guilty, and these men are spotless before God. And he began to plead for them from that time forth; but they reviled him, saying: Art thou also possessed with the devil? And they spit upon him, and cast him out from among them, and also all those who believed in the words which had been spoken by Alma and Amulek; and they cast them out, and sent men to cast stones at them.

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

If we begin to rationalize and question the Lord's wisdom, remember that He, Himself, descended below us all to suffer every pain and affliction of mankind as He took upon Himself all the anguish and agonies of sin and suffer every humiliation both spiritually and physically that He might know how to comfort each and every one of us and save us from the wages of sin. Are any of us better than Him?

[Martain]

I'll try to share something in regards to your question that I thought of while I was originally trying to write an answer to your question.

Suppose you accept that God has given man the gift of Agency. For him to use his foreknowledge of the future to prevent such evil from occurring he would in essence be depriving an individual of their agency.

Surely God knew that you would become addicted to drinking in the course of your life. Surely you have seen health consequences that have come from such a decision? Would it be just for God to place the consequences of a lifetime of drinking on you when you were a new born babe?

Imagine your parents said no you can't ever drive because you'll break the speed limit, no you can't ever listen to music because you'll listen to the wrong kind, no you can't ever date because you'll do something unchaste, no you can't ever touch a stove because you'll burn yourself, no you can't have any sweets because you'll get cavities, no you can't be friends with that person because they'll be a bad influenc. No you can't stay up past 9 because you'll get into trouble? No you can't go anywhere or doing anything without first checking and getting approval. Etc etc.

If your parents compelled you to do all the right things and used force to prevent you from making any bad or wrong choices... would you feel trusted? Would you want to live with such controlling parents?

Knowing that our Heavenly Father wants us to return home to him, if he were to deny you your agency, would you want to return home to such a household?

Once we began, where would we draw the line between what is and what isn't ok for God to deny our agency over?

God is Just and will require payment for every sin you commit. In the end Justice will be paid and paid fully.

God is Merciful yet mercy can not rob justice. Justice requires that someone pays for our sins and it is either us or Christ. Christ suffered for all of your sins so that he can offer you Mercy. He offers all of us forgiveness upon condition of repentance. Yet just like he will not deny us our agency to sin, he will not force us to repent and accept him.

My understanding as to the answer of your original question goes beyond Agency and ties into many other principals of the gospel. I hope you'll take the time to read and consider 2 Nephi chapter 2 because I feel it will help answer your questions. Also, there is a book I want to send you would you be ok with that?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Martain

[Praetorian_Brow]

Life is arbitary and sad comedy of perpetual errors that are committed for vague justifications.

It is up to us to make the best of it, using whatever capacity we have.

If God was to prevent misdeeds, we would cease to have a purpose.

[Arnolt]

I'll try to share something in regards to your question that I thought of while I was originally trying to write an answer to your question.

Suppose you accept that God has given man the gift of Agency. For him to use his foreknowledge of the future to prevent such evil from occurring he would in essence be depriving an individual of their agency.

Surely God knew that you would become addicted to drinking in the course of your life. Surely you have seen health consequences that have come from such a decision? Would it be just for God to place the consequences of a lifetime of drinking on you when you were a new born babe?

Imagine your parents said no you can't ever drive because you'll break the speed limit, no you can't ever listen to music because you'll listen to the wrong kind, no you can't ever date because you'll do something unchaste, no you can't ever touch a stove because you'll burn yourself, no you can't have any sweets because you'll get cavities, no you can't be friends with that person because they'll be a bad influenc. No you can't stay up past 9 because you'll get into trouble? No you can't go anywhere or doing anything without first checking and getting approval. Etc etc.

If your parents compelled you to do all the right things and used force to prevent you from making any bad or wrong choices... would you feel trusted? Would you want to live with such controlling parents?

Knowing that our Heavenly Father wants us to return home to him, if he were to deny you your agency, would you want to return home to such a household?

Once we began, where would we draw the line between what is and what isn't ok for God to deny our agency over?

God is Just and will require payment for every sin you commit. In the end Justice will be paid and paid fully.

God is Merciful yet mercy can not rob justice. Justice requires that someone pays for our sins and it is either us or Christ. Christ suffered for all of your sins so that he can offer you Mercy. He offers all of us forgiveness upon condition of repentance. Yet just like he will not deny us our agency to sin, he will not force us to repent and accept him.

My understanding as to the answer of your original question goes beyond Agency and ties into many other principals of the gospel. I hope you'll take the time to read and consider 2 Nephi chapter 2 because I feel it will help answer your questions. Also, there is a book I want to send you would you be ok with that?

Thank you for your posts, Martain. There is now so much information given to me that first I will have to read all the sicnificant posts again and also the recommended chapters in the holy scriptures (2 Nephi) and D&C. And thank you for offering to send me a book. Do you mean the Book of Mormon? I have it here and so it wouldn't be necessary to send another one to me.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Arnolt

[Arnolt]

This is interesting and enlightening because I have experienced times where I felt Heavenly Father (God) was not with me not because he didn't want to be but because I chose not to allow him to be.

Heavenly Father (God) is the essence of righteousness and good, he can only exist if we believe and follow in his son Jesus Christ and if in doubt will make him inexistent for individuals who choose not be believers or followers of his begotten son.

Isn't our spirit a speculation beyond life's comprehensions? We are "Intelligent" not because it was created but because it is our inheritance from our Heavenly Father. So, when it becomes apparent to individuals to ask "Why" in nature of things pertaining to others or environments than their own. I would think that the question is "Why" indirectly to one.

I've been in a circumstance where I asked why was I abused and why was I born into a family that was corrupted. Why were all these bad things happening to me at a very young age? These are questions that I've felt obligated to find out, and when I found out I was hurt and angry. I had no one to trust in; I had no one to give me hope and inspiration to be of good nature. I started realizing that I was miserable because I chose to do bad things to reconcile for happiness that didn't exist in the first place. My family was a masquerade of happiness, I was thinking we were one big happy family but confused at the bad things that were happening.

After all these circumstances and incidents I find myself needing Heavenly Father (God) not temporarily but I seek inevitably for him because he is true and divine happiness. And through Jesus Christ, the one and only begotten son, I will be able to become holy and worthy depending on my good works, deeds, and thoughts that correlate to the teachings and gospel.

Life is not a dream but a reality that we can choose to live freely at our own risk or at our own gain. As much as Heavenly father is real so is the adversary, the adversary is bound to tempt us because he wants to rule over us. What a blessing to be able to know such things so plain, so evident right or wrong, good or bad. As human nature we are prone to make mistakes but are we willing and capable of changing them for the better cause of our own salvation? To choose Heavenly Father is to choose to live freely to choose the adversary is to choose to be bound by Satan.

The gospel can only enlighten and strengthen our intelligence for the greater goodness and pureness of our hearts allowing us to unite and live in righteousness. To blame Heavenly Father (God) for things that are happening means we as problem creators shouldn't be equitable and accountable to solve such problems. IMO Thanks for your post.

You have quoted Bertold Brecht. I didn't know about his "Stories of Mr. Keuner". Where did you know it from? Is he so popular or well known in the United States? So it gives me an answer about that phenomenon that I have still in my memory (when I went across that "Heaven and Hell" game). One adult might have written the words above for any reason. Not exactly in the words of Brecht, but without "einen", simply "Du brauchst Gott" (you need God). Perhaps it's only our personal view or interpretation that makes things seem strange.

[BrendaM]

Sicily, thanks so much for that Testimony!!!

[Seminarysnoozer]

What we are to understand from a religious standpoint is that pain and suffering are necessary in order to achieve the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't think all Mormons believe this at least at a personal level. "Pain and suffering" if that is your general description of mortality, sure, mortality is needed for the greater plan. In other words, we know that pain and suffering has to exist as part of this mortal step but htat isn't a statement that every individual has to experience it personally. Not everyone has to experience personally what pain and suffering is during their mortal stay. Do those who are born into the millennium and under the covenant have pain and suffering and yet still know good and evil? What about the baby who is born without a brain, anencephaly, and goes straight to the Celestial Kingdom without experiencing sin? What pain and suffering is felt or experienced there? What about the baby who dies at one minute, how much of your first minute of life do you think was experienced, how much of your first minute do you remember? If one's response to that is that we will remember all (even things that weren't actually experienced) then that just supports what I am saying that it doesn't have to be experienced in the first placed, it could be a memory placed later that was never really experienced in this life.

To say words like "necessary" means it has to cover all scenarios. For some it might be necessary but I don't think that is a universal statement that you are trying to make it.

[Sicily510]

You have quoted Bertold Brecht. I didn't know about his "Stories of Mr. Keuner". Where did you know it from? Is he so popular or well known in the United States? So it gives me an answer about that phenomenon that I have still in my memory (when I went across that "Heaven and Hell" game). One adult might have written the words above for any reason. Not exactly in the words of Brecht, but without "einen", simply "Du brauchst Gott" (you need God). Perhaps it's only our personal view or interpretation that makes things seem strange.

Honestly, I never heard of Bertold Brecht until I googled "Du brauchst Gott" and my results provided the exerpt from "Mr. Keuner". Thankfully there was an english translated version and when I read it, I couldn't resist not sharing it. Heavenly Father is linked to us when we seek him and want to help others seek him as well. I found familiarity emotionally and spiritually to this excerpt, and I know it's I need a Heavenly Father (God) but more I need Heavenly Father (God).

What appealed to me about this excerpt was Mr. K's expression "I advise you to consider whether, depending on the answer, your behavior would change. If it would not change, then we can drop the question. If it would change, then I can at least be of help to the extent that I can say, you have already decided: you need a God."

This expression to me is enlightening that Heavenly Fathers existence is to change mankind. Change what? Behaviors, deeds, thoughts, living righteously. The answer to this question is a dilemma, a dilemma many face and which some are capable of understanding while others choose not to want to understand. This dilemma is in rephrasement of William Shakespeare's "To believe or not to believe in Heavenly Father".

Heavenly Father offers so much compassion, yet he also has a strict rule which requires discipline and exceptional organizational skills. Why not have to learn line upon line and heed to his commandments that only bears blessings.

2 Nephi 28:30

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

Why does God seem to look away and let it happen or why do mankind seem to look away and let it happen? We are given knowledge, wisdom, principles to raise families to live righteously building our homes on a rock being the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must secure our families not only with the spiritual armors but also the armor to protect themselves when in danger and confidence to be spiritually strong in morals.

[Jamie123]

Eddy Izzard put it rather nicely:

If there was a God, don't you think He would have flicked Hitler's head off?