Help me understand D&C 19

[Timpman]

So section 19 says:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

I don't understand how all the references to eternal, endless, or everlasting punishment in the scriptures do not really mean that it won't end.

How does that work with the following verses?:

3 Nephi 27:17 "And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father."

Matt 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Helaman 6:28 "And also it is that same being who put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven. And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell."

I just don't get it.

[pam]

I guess I'm confused as to what you don't get.

[mikbone]

The answer is in D&C 76: 44-48

[skippy740]

The traditional Christian views of these words is that "Endless punishment" is without end. Everlasting punishment is also without end.

What the difference is, is that Endless is one of God's names. So is Everlasting.

So, it is a TYPE of punishment, not a punishment without end.

Put it this way: We are on earth for a finite period of time. Most of the Christian world will say "Believe in God or be subject to eternity in hell". Well, even with our finite time on earth, we will commit a finite number of sins.

Do you think it's fair of a god to cause his children to suffer an infinite and never-ending punishment for all their sins?

At some point, the debt will be paid. This is what is being explained in D&C 19.

[Vort]

The traditional Christian views of these words is that "Endless punishment" is without end. Everlasting punishment is also without end.

What the difference is, is that Endless is one of God's names. So is Everlasting.

So, it is a TYPE of punishment, not a punishment without end.

It's worth noting that Alma suffered "eternal torment" that lasted about three days.

[Dove]

Thanks for the explanation/clarification, Skippy. I was like Timpman, those verses were difficult for me to understand, too. It makes a lot more sense to me with you explaining it as you did.

[rameumptom]

The answer is twofold:

First, hell is the name of the area in Spirit Prison where the wicked suffer until they repent. This is where D&C 19 warns us that we may suffer "even as I". And until they repent, they will remain in hell.

Second, there may actually be an end to Outer Darkness. Brigham Young thought that such beings would eventually be disassembled into their basic components (matter) and restart the process all over again. Others think that perhaps they may later repent and have the atonement of Christ rescue them.

[Timpman]

The answer is in D&C 76: 44-48

Thanks for pointing that out. So that is referring to sons of perdition. I am pretty sure there are instances in the scriptures where it mentions eternal/endless/everlasting punishment for those who are not sons of perdition.

skippy, thanks for the explanation. I'm still confused about 3 Nephi 27:17 because it says "And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father." The words "from whence they can no more return" doesn't fit so well as a type of punishment.

vort, that reference to Alma makes a lot of sense. I had forgotten about that.

[Timpman]

Second, there may actually be an end to Outer Darkness. Brigham Young thought that such beings would eventually be disassembled into their basic components (matter) and restart the process all over again. Others think that perhaps they may later repent and have the atonement of Christ rescue them.

I think that was Brother Brigham speaking about his own thoughts

[skippy740]

3 Nephi 27:17 needs to be read in context of the other verses around it.

Here's my own take on this: Christ is talking about exaltation to the Celestial Kingdom, versus 'spirit paradise' or any other kingdom.

If you are not repenting and enduring to the end to keep your covenants, you will be "hewn down" from your greatest potential and be in a 'lesser' kingdom. This is the same definition of being "damned" because you can no longer progress spiritually.

Verse 19 helps to add some clarification:

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Emphasis added on "his".

Christ is not talking about the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms here. He is talking about entering the rest of the Father. That's the Celestial Kingdom.

Verse 21-22

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

Christ is talking about the commandments given in HIS church... not of any other church, but His - the one that has the priesthood, ordinances and doctrines necessary unto salvation & exaltation.

[rameumptom]

I see 3 Ne 27:17 differently. Let's read it and the few verses before it:

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

Here we see the Christ draws "all men" unto him, so they can be "judged of their works". This ties in with Revelation 20, which tells us that there is the Book of Life and other books. We will be judged of our works based on what is in the books. However, the Book of Life determines whether we are saved from death and hell or not.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

All that is required to be guiltless is to repent, be baptized, and endure. Enduring does not necessarily mean keeping the commandments. Instead, we see in 3 Nephi 11, it means we need to follow the pattern of faith, repentance, baptism/ordinances, and receiving the Holy Ghost. This is a cycle we must continually do, in order to remain guiltless. This is the process of "justification and sanctification". Justification means we believe in Christ and have repented of our sins, so Christ washes us clean. We are guiltless before God. Sanctification is where we accept covenants and ordinances, and in so doing receive greater outpourings of the Holy Spirit. This is what makes us holy and worthy of higher levels of heaven. Commandments become a natural outcome of our becoming holy, not the reason for us becoming holy.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

To not endure means one stops believing and repenting. We literally refuse the gift of grace that Christ offers. We insist on having salvation our own way, and reject what is offered. Being "hewn down into the fire" has two connotations. First it means those in Spirit Prison hell being cast down and suffering even as Christ suffers (D&C 19) or Alma suffered (Alma 36). In fact, I will be writing on Alma 36 next week for the Sunday School blog, and go in great detail regarding such stuff.

The other point is for those who forever refuse to believe and repent. They are cast out, because there is no other place for them. Mormon 9:4 tells us they would be more miserable in the presence of a just and holy God than dwelling with the souls in hell!

We must remember that in the BoM, they were not discussing a multiplicity of heavens, as we believe in today. They were mostly talking about heaven and hell (although Alma does mention the Spirit World). They understood justification and sanctification much better than most LDS do today. Heck, it took me several decades of study to begin to really understand them. And the way some earlier GAs explained them is not totally correct, as they did not teach grace and atonement as the Book of Mormon actually does. So, trying to read Mormon Doctrine's teaching of salvation into the Book of Mormon does not work.

You have to read what they really are saying, without any preconceived notions.

[Dove]

The answer is twofold:

First, hell is the name of the area in Spirit Prison where the wicked suffer until they repent. This is where D&C 19 warns us that we may suffer "even as I". And until they repent, they will remain in hell.

Second, there may actually be an end to Outer Darkness. Brigham Young thought that such beings would eventually be disassembled into their basic components (matter) and restart the process all over again. Others think that perhaps they may later repent and have the atonement of Christ rescue them.

Rameumptom;

Thanks much for fleshing these quotes out. It has really bothered me for years that there was absolutely no hope for the sons of perdition. That they would be in eternal pain and misery. It really comforts me to think that Brigham Young thought differently. Can you tell me the "others" who believe that they may have the opportunity to repent again through the atonement? I tend to believe scriptures that could lend strength to this argument can be found in Alma 34:10-14. These scripts speak of how the atonement must be an "infinite and eternal" sacrifice. It would make sense to me that if the atonement is "infinite and eternal" it could extend even to the sons of perdition. Maybe this is speculation?

[skippy740]

Second, there may actually be an end to Outer Darkness. Brigham Young thought that such beings would eventually be disassembled into their basic components (matter) and restart the process all over again. Others think that perhaps they may later repent and have the atonement of Christ rescue them.

I'm having a "star trek" moment thinking about transporter technology.

This does sound like a version of 'reincarnation' being brought into the gospel. Definitely falls under speculation, but interesting to think about. The difference here, is that the SPIRIT is being reincarnated as a different being? Then the original person is destroyed. I don't see how that's really a 2nd chance when the 'reincarnated spirit' isn't the same as the one who sinned against the greater light.

Definitely speculation though.

[Dove]

Rameumpton;

I appreciate what you just wrote. I do have a concern.....I have always believed and been under the impression that I had to "strive" to keep the commandments in order to be taken through the process of "sanctification." That becoming holy, while it is a gift from God, requires also that I do everything in my power to follow Him and His commandments. Actually, my experience with feeling the power of the Holy Spirit in my life seems directly tied to my faith, or the faith of others praying/working on my behalf, in how much effort I put in to reaching to the Heavens...i.e., prayer, scripture study, striving to put off the "natural" person, loving, etc. Asking our Father in prayer for self-restraint and a change of heart is necessary for Him to be able to do so, imo. I don't believe that I become holy and then am blessed to keep the commandments. I more believe that some action on my part (doing those things I've just listed and asking Him to purify and sanctify me) is required to invite the Spirit, through the atonement, to cleanse me and make me "holy."

Can you explain your point of view further?

Thanks

Dove

[Convert55]

You wrote:

I don't understand how all the references to eternal, endless, or everlasting punishment in the scriptures do not really mean that it won't end.

My understanding of the scriptures you mentioned (D&C 19) and the concept of endless torment is as follows.

Keep in mind that there are at least 3 places where people will experience punishments/ torment:

(Punishment #1) here on earth.

(D&C 76): 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

But the BoM tells us that people can be “snatched” from this wrath:

Mosiah 27:28-29

28 Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God.

29 My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.

So what happened to the “eternal torment” spoken of? Is it still there (where ever it is)? It seem likely to me that it still exists. The important point is that people can be “snatched” away from it.

(Punishment #2) In Spirit Prison before the resurrection

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So then, after everyone has been taken from this spirit prison and judged and then sent on to their glory or punishment and the spirit prison is empty, what happens to it? I don’t know, but it seems consistent that it still exists.

Joseph Smith may have given the answer in D&C 19 that you quoted. In Verses 4 – 6 it states:

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

Implying (in my mind anyway) that if God is eternal and all that he makes is eternal then that prison, and torment still exists even though no one is in it after the resurrection and judgment.

2 Nephi 9:12

12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

There can be a mental torment both on earth and in spirit prison/hell. The Atonement of Jesus Christ has the power to release us from all that.

And (Punishment #3) After Judgment

After the judgment those who are worthy of perdition will be cast into outer darkness:

D&C 101

90 And in his hot displeasure, and in his fierce anger, in his time, will cut off those wicked, unfaithful, and unjust stewards, and appoint them their portion among hypocrites, and unbelievers;

91 Even in outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

[Convert55]

PS to the above comment I made

After contemplating how the Lord on every level seems to be willing and wanting to deliver us. I can’t help but feel deeply how loving He is, how merciful He is that I am struck with awe and appreciation. And when I consider my own ways, I see how patient He is and how long suffering He is, and yet His mighty had is stretched out still to deliver. I too stand all amazed.

[Timpman]

Convert55, thanks for your reply. I see you put a lot into writing that and I really appreciate it. It makes sense to me now. I want to read more scriptures online but it's out of service! Nooooooooooooooooo!