Other religions

[skalenfehl]

The problem is not your condescension. Nor you asking me to read certain scriptures. It is always advisable to obtain the Spirit's input. What troubles me is your unwillingness to continue our discussion, which may have lead to an understanding of each other's view point on the matter.

You disagreed with my making the dividing line between estates as the line drawn between good and evil, which I subsequently equated to faith and rebellion, using the premortal example of Lucifer's rebellion and lose of his first estate.

Your response was to refer me to scripture, which does not clarify your position. I am sure scripture is accurate and I am sure my view does not contradict scripture. What remains unresolved is your view on what constitutes the dividing line and whether that view contradicts scripture, after all, it maybe you who has limited vision on the matter.

That is why I asked you to provide me with your interpretation of the scriptures you referenced to. And specifically please tell me how they would eliminate my position that the dividing line between each estate is good and evil (faith and rebellion).

I have actually addressed your posts with a lot to ponder. I have also asked you to read some scriptures to establish a foundation from which we can build. I have no idea what your level of understanding of the gospel is, if you're LDS or if you can relate to the scriptures I have recommended if you are not. This was your reply.

I haven't done the reading assignment so I won't try to answer your question.

It is not I who am unwilling to continue. However, feel free to message me privately with specific questions. Let me know a little about yourself while you're at it. Thanks.

[Bensalem]

I have actually addressed your posts with a lot to ponder. I have also asked you to read some scriptures to establish a foundation from which we can build. I have no idea what your level of understanding of the gospel is, if you're LDS or if you can relate to the scriptures I have recommended if you are not. This was your reply.

It is not I who am unwilling to continue. However, feel free to message me privately with specific questions. Let me know a little about yourself while you're at it. Thanks.

I live in northern California so I am not a dodger fan. At least I was honest in my reason for not reading the scriptures you referred to. As I said, I have no doubt that my lesson of what defines the dividing line between estates matches scripture. You have yet to demonstrate that your understanding matches the scriptures because you have not explained your disagreement with me in terms of your scriptural interpretation.

I am not in conflict with my understanding, you are. So it remains on you to prove me wrong.

I know little about you, but that does not limit my ability to have a discussion with you.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Bensalem

[Heber13]

It's like education. Lots of people know facts and figures, but not everyone makes it through to getting their phD and beyond. The Church provides the kind of permission, support and funding necessary to do this, and it offers this to anyone willing to undergo that transformation. It's a gem, a marvelous work and a wonder, and anyone seriously willing to know God more personally will eventually find their way to this Church, in time. :)

This is a good analogy. I like it because it is about progressing in knowledge and developing a way to think about things that the education can transform a person. The diploma you get when you earn it by doing certain things is a vehicle to help people on that path, but not everyone with a degree will be transformed the same, not everyone without a degree will not be transformed. It is just one way to help, and probably the most probable way to transform successfully.

When I hire people in my work, the degrees they get are typically a standard set to see they are qualified to do the work with proper education. But it is not a guarantee they are qualified. Some others with years of work experience (and not having a degree) may be better developed to be hired to a position than someone with a degree.

Therefore, there are different paths to becoming worthy to be hired in a job.

This could apply also to being worthy for exaltation based on how the Lord sees His children have developed to be like Christ.

Thanks for sharing.

[Heber13]

The bottom line that I think is what is raising the question is the idea that the needful steps required to "pass" the second estate test are not just gates. They are not just titles, such as "member" or "christian". The judgement is based in the desire of the heart. The gospel and the organized church with priesthood authority and keys allows for a "mighty" change of heart.

Yes! Well said. I agree with you. Thanks for answering the question.

I do think keeping the second estate is what the judgement and exaltation is about.

I do think this Church has true teachings, and power, and authority to help people get there. How blessed we are to have the restored church to help us keep our second estate, and I agree there is more we are expected to become than just "being a good person". We must follow Christ and become like him.

I have always loved Elder Oaks talk in General Conference where he says:

From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

The Challenge to Become - general-conference

Thanks for your comments.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Heber13

[bytor2112]

In looking at what happened to Jesus Christ's Church after his Crucifixion, the Gnostics and Essenes were slain, the library at Alexandra was burned, the inquisition happened, the council of Nicea occured, Mary Magdalene was declared a whore, and so on and so on. So many of the present day doctrines of other churches are not supportable, and it just goes on and on. I was baptized 4 times before being baptized in the LDS church, and one of them was in the Jordan river in Israel. I really wanted to belong to Jesus Christ, but it never really took hold until a young Elder did it in an LDS Ward.

Though I am reluctant to use the term you have to describe other churches, I will not dispute what you say.

Sorry was quoting from 1st Nephi:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

[bytor2112]

Resurrection is not exaltation. Resurrection unites our spirits with our bodies. But Alma taught that all are resurrected; the just are resurrected to eternal life in the light of Christ and the unjust to eternal misery in darkness.

Whoever said it was?

The Fall did not bring spiritual death to Adam since he still had access to the Holy Ghost. The separation was from God's physical presence, not His spiritual presence. The Fall brought on mortality and introduced physical death, but you made it sound as if salvation saved us from the pains of physical death. It does not.

Maybe you need to contact CES and have them re-write the Gospel Principle manual, because Chapter 12 states:

The Fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world: physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is separation of the body and spirit. Spiritual death is separation from God. If these two kinds of death had not been overcome by Jesus Christ’s Atonement, two consequences would have resulted: our bodies and our spirits would have been separated forever, and we could not have lived again with our Heavenly Father (see 2 Nephi 9:7–9).

Exaltation is glorification. We must be glorified before entering the presence of God. As Church members we are the body of Christ, since Christ is a glorified being, we are also glorified in Christ. Christ was baptized on earth by John who held the Aaronic priesthood. In order to be part of His body, all must be baptized in like manor. Whereas many may gain salvation and live eternally in the light of Christ, only the baptized gain access to the body of Christ.

Exaltation is Eternal Life. and as one of Heavenly father's names is Eternal, it is the kind of life that HE lives. It is to have Eternal increase, to live in the presence of the Father, to become joint heirs with Christ.

A higher exaltation is obtainable through the covenants of the priesthood. When we become priests our glorification is akin to God's.

A higher exaltation? Your are doubtless referring to Eternal life......I think your personal descriptions of your beliefs differ somewhat from LDS teachings.....

Edited July 21, 2012 by bytor2112

[Bensalem]

Quote:Bensalem

The Fall did not bring spiritual death to Adam since he still had access to the Holy Ghost. The separation was from God's physical presence, not His spiritual presence. The Fall brought on mortality and introduced physical death, but you made it sound as if salvation saved us from the pains of physical death. It does not.

Maybe you need to contact CES and have them re-write the Gospel Principle manual, because Chapter 12 states:

The Fall of Adam brought two kinds of death into the world: physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is separation of the body and spirit. Spiritual death is separation from God. If these two kinds of death had not been overcome by Jesus Christ’s Atonement, two consequences would have resulted: our bodies and our spirits would have been separated forever, and we could not have lived again with our Heavenly Father (see 2 Nephi 9:7–9).

I think your personal descriptions of your beliefs differ somewhat from LDS teachings.....

Or the LDS church and I could both be right. My statement is related to Adam specifically. He was not spiritually dead because he had the companionship of the Holy Ghost. He was physically separated but not spiritually separated.

The LDS quote you provided speaks of the Fall of Adam and it's impact on the world. The risk of spiritual death was in fact introduced along with the certainty of mortal death. Physical death is unavoidable, but spiritually death only occurs if one dies in their sins without having come unto Christ. These go to spirit prison to await the resurrection. Those in companionship of the Holy Ghost are returned to paradise to await the resurrection.

[Heber13]

I wondered if Skippy had a response to post #132

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Heber13. It is a pleasure to meet you! :)

That is just really hard for me to buy into. What evidence do we have that our Church is any better than any other Church? If you compare the fruits...are not other churches producing just as good of fruit as our church? Is not our church producing just as many sour fruits as those in the Bible belt that attack our religion, or other churches?

Is God really going to restrict the CK to Mormons only?

Let's say a good muslim family raises their children with devout worship, respect for their beliefs, and loving service to others in their community. In the afterlife, it is judged that their hearts were pure, they just weren't taught all truth yet. So they are taught in the spirit world and accept truth there. I would think they could enjoy blessings from God based on their level of knowledge and their hearts. Right?

Then why do we care if people receive ordinances in this life or not? It works out either way, more important is their hearts and the qualities they develop.

If God will be the judge, why do we condemn all other religions to less than CK status?

No matter what, we can't attain exaltation and immortality without the saving ordinances of the gospel AND the authority to perform them. It comes down to priesthood. That is the one distinguishing feature that we have that no other church on this planet has. You either believe that or you don't.

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good afternoon Heber13. It is a pleasure to meet you! :)

No matter what, we can't attain exaltation and immortality without the saving ordinances of the gospel AND the authority to perform them. It comes down to priesthood. That is the one distinguishing feature that we have that no other church on this planet has. You either believe that or you don't.

Regards,

Finrock

Yeah, that is what I said in post #56. Don't think he wanted to take on that discussion.

[Heber13]

No matter what, we can't attain exaltation and immortality without the saving ordinances of the gospel AND the authority to perform them. It comes down to priesthood. That is the one distinguishing feature that we have that no other church on this planet has. You either believe that or you don't.

Good to meet you, too, Finrock. Thanks for your reply.

First, don't mean to be picky but just a small correction in your statement...immortality is not received from the saving ordinances, that is the free gift we all get, correct?

Exaltation is the topic this thread has been discussing because I'm not so sure it is so cut and dry.

SeminarySnoozer mentioned in #56 how these ordinances give us help and power to endure to the end. I like that idea. I think priesthood power can absolutely help those who commit and live worthy to receive that support, and who regularly go back to church and the temple for renewing those. They are wonderful blessings to help guide a person through this journey.

But is Exaltation ONLY for those with the ordinances, no matter how good they are?

It seems to me that I see exceptions to the rules, and then it makes me think that maybe that is not absolutely the case.

One example might be a baby dying before age 8. We don't do ordinance work for them, right? Why? If that is the case, we can't say exaltation is ONLY from those who have ordinances from the proper authority.

Severely handicapped people are another exception.

If there are exceptions, then, perhaps, I'm open to there being other ways people can attain exaltation.

That should not mean priesthood power and authority is worthless. It just means maybe we should step back and be more open to other ways, while preaching the power of these ordinances in our lives, and invite others to come and partake of them because they can help us. If they choose not to, well, we do not need to be so confident that means they cannot have exaltation. Maybe they can. But I believe they'd benefit from the ordinances while in this life to help strengthen them.

So I can believe the priesthood is real and God's authority. But that doesn't make it black and white to me. There are other considerations and still reconcile my testimony of the restoration.

[Vort]

But is Exaltation ONLY for those with the ordinances, no matter how good they are?

For those who are accountable before God, exaltation is bestowed only through covenant. Only. No exceptions.

If there are exceptions, then, perhaps, I'm open to there being other ways people can attain exaltation.

That says nothing about reality and much about your view of LDS doctrine.

That should not mean priesthood power and authority is worthless. It just means maybe we should step back and be more open to other ways, while preaching the power of these ordinances in our lives, and invite others to come and partake of them because they can help us.

You contradict yourself. You're the one who thinks we're just too pushy with our exclusionary claims.

So I can believe the priesthood is real and God's authority. But that doesn't make it black and white to me. There are other considerations and still reconcile my testimony of the restoration.

That it is not black and white to you does not in the least suggest that it is not black and white in reality.

[Finrock]

Good to meet you, too, Finrock. Thanks for your reply.

You're welcome.

First, don't mean to be picky but just a small correction in your statement...immortality is not received from the saving ordinances, that is the free gift we all get, correct?

I understand what you are saying and it is true that immortality is a free gift given to all. But, we cannot annex the priesthood from the act that made the gift of immortality possible. However, more importantly my statement was a compound sentence and so it needs to be considered in totality. Only through the priesthood ordinaces can we can receive both exaltation AND immortality. Or, maybe if I wrote it this way it will make more sense: We can only obtain both immortality AND exaltation through the saving ordinance of the gospel which require priesthood authority. We can receive immortality without being baptized. We can not be exalted without being baptized.

But is Exaltation ONLY for those with the ordinances, no matter how good they are?

I don't think the concept of being "good" can be seperated from the concept of wanting the saving ordinances of the gospel. Ultimately being good means being like Jesus Christ. There is no exaltation without the ordinances of the gospel performed by the proper priesthood authority. Period.

It seems to me that I see exceptions to the rules, and then it makes me think that maybe that is not absolutely the case.

One example might be a baby dying before age 8. We don't do ordinance work for them, right? Why? If that is the case, we can't say exaltation is ONLY from those who have ordinances from the proper authority.

Severely handicapped people are another exception.

If there are exceptions, then, perhaps, I'm open to there being other ways people can attain exaltation.

That should not mean priesthood power and authority is worthless. It just means maybe we should step back and be more open to other ways, while preaching the power of these ordinances in our lives, and invite others to come and partake of them because they can help us. If they choose not to, well, we do not need to be so confident that means they cannot have exaltation. Maybe they can. But I believe they'd benefit from the ordinances while in this life to help strengthen them.

So I can believe the priesthood is real and God's authority. But that doesn't make it black and white to me. There are other considerations and still reconcile my testimony of the restoration.

I'm not sure your examples are true exceptions. For one, I understood that the context was that we were speaking of those who are capable of sinning. Your examples introduce individuals who are not capable of sinning. However, if there are exceptions then they will be revealed to God's prophets. We have scripture and modern day revelation clearly indicating that small children and people who are mentally handicapped will be exalted but what you are proposing is not supported by scripture or prophetic utterances.

The question isn't about good and bad people existing within or without the church. All good people who deserve exaltation will receive it but only after they have met the conditions that God has set. God sets the bounds, we don't. We either choose to follow God's path or we follow some other path. That is this life in a nutshell.

Regards,

Finrock

[Heber13]

Finrock, I like your direct and to the point responses. Thanks.

[Heber13]

Finrock,

Since you're a straight shooter...can you tell me if you see that D&C 137 teaches us God prepares a way for all His children, even those who are not blessed with ordinances while in this life?

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

God seems to be teaching us He will judge people not only with works and ordinances, but also according to the desires of their hearts.

Little Children cannot sin, and so they are worthy to receive exaltation, and are saved through the Atonement.

The Buddhist monk drinking tea and violating the Word of Wisdom is not sinning, without the knowledge of the gospel. And will be judged according to his heart's desires.

So our church leaders are telling us that the mortal test will be judged by God. Therefore, some will never hear of the gospel in this life. Some we will never know of their names in order to do temple work for them. But God can still allow them to come unto Him and receive exaltation if their hearts were such that they would have received it had they been given a proper chance.

So we cannot say the only way is Mormonism, when there are exceptions provided for in the merciful and just plan of salvation.

The teachings of ministers in Joseph's day were teaching people had to be baptized in their religion or be sent to hell, including babies. Joseph helped restore a beautiful truth that God provides a way for those not given a chance in this life, like his brother Alvin.

[HiJolly]

Doesn't the Book or Mormon speak of the heathen?

Seems to me that the Gospel says that those who have lived without law, will not be judged by the law. That law includes all priesthood ordinances.

HiJolly

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Heber13. Thank you for the compliments. I hope you are doing well! :)

Finrock,

Since you're a straight shooter...can you tell me if you see that D&C 137 teaches us God prepares a way for all His children, even those who are not blessed with ordinances while in this life?

God seems to be teaching us He will judge people not only with works and ordinances, but also according to the desires of their hearts.

Little Children cannot sin, and so they are worthy to receive exaltation, and are saved through the Atonement.

The Buddhist monk drinking tea and violating the Word of Wisdom is not sinning, without the knowledge of the gospel. And will be judged according to his heart's desires.

So our church leaders are telling us that the mortal test will be judged by God. Therefore, some will never hear of the gospel in this life. Some we will never know of their names in order to do temple work for them. But God can still allow them to come unto Him and receive exaltation if their hearts were such that they would have received it had they been given a proper chance.

So we cannot say the only way is Mormonism, when there are exceptions provided for in the merciful and just plan of salvation.

The teachings of ministers in Joseph's day were teaching people had to be baptized in their religion or be sent to hell, including babies. Joseph helped restore a beautiful truth that God provides a way for those not given a chance in this life, like his brother Alvin.

I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree. I agree that God prepares a way for His children to accept his gospel and to live by its precepts. I don't agree that God prepares a way for his children to choose how they wish to live the gospel and then live by the precepts they have chosen to follow. I totally agree that God will exercise mercy and justice with perfection in judging us and that our hearts and our desires will either condemn us or justify us. There is, however, a subtle equivocation going on in what you are stating. I think where you err is in supposing that because God allows people a chance to accept and live the gospel outside of mortality that they are somehow exempt from the necessary ordinances of the gospel.

It is important to make clear that from a Mormom frame of reference Mormonism is "God's way". So, to say that Mormonism isn't the only way is to say that God's way isn't the only way. God's way is the only way.

The scripture you quote says that those who did not have a chance to receive but would have received the gospel, given the chance, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. The inference is clearly that they must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, which gospel is found in it's totality with all it's saving ordinances, only within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a.k.a., Mormonism.

Also, there are at least three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom and this scripture doesn't necessarily speak to exaltation.

The scriptures are telling us that people will be given the opportunity to accept the gospel and to have the saving ordinances done for them, either in this life or in the next or some other time.

Regards,

Finrock

[Mute]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

Holy moly! There is a heck of a lot of pages to this thread. I got through the first 6 and it was like the energizer bunny.

I'm not sure I'll be much help to this thread in what you were looking for Heber but I'll do my best to give any insight I can.

I'm agnostic and a former lds member. If there is a God, I honestly don't believe I will go to Heaven or rather a substantial portion of me doesn't. This is in large part because virtually every religion/every church believes that those who are not part of their faith are more or less screwed. It's not exactly what I'd call promising or uplifting for a person like me or for anyone part of the wrong religion.

However, I never got this impression from what I personally felt a just God would do but again I don't know for sure. I think if you want an answer to this question and you believe a God exists, you would do better to pray and ask rather than asking an online forum. If there is a God and they do care about us as a parent would, I would think you'll find out or at least receive help in finding your answer. Why don't you ask yourself the question of what would you do if you were a God and the people on this Earth were your children that you loved? I hope that helps you in your search.

For me personally, I don't know what awaits me when I die. Maybe nothing. Maybe an eternity of unhappiness. Maybe bliss in a peaceful heaven full of love and happiness with friends and family. Regardless, it doesn't change me as a person. Religion can help better a person or worsen them.

There are good people in all faiths and religions. I have friends of every faith and those of no faiths. I don't personally care what someone believes. I care what a person is like on the inside. If a person is a good in their heart, and there is a just God, I believe he would present them with every opportunity possible to learn/know and find a way to return to live with him. Whether that be in this life or another. That's what I'd do for my children and it seems like the right thing to me.

I personally do my best to do what I believe to be right. Not because of a promise of a eternal reward or the fear of punishment but because I believe it will make me the most happy to do what I do. I don't know if there is a heaven or a hell and I don't know where I'm going if there is one but I'll find out when I die.

[Dove]

Mute;

I appreciate your input. You remind me a lot of my brother. He's at least agnostic if not full blown atheist at this point. You both make some really good points~That it's not so much what we claim to believe as much as it is what we are. That there is intrinsic joy to be found in just doing "good" for goodness' sake (it will make us happier) than doing good for some great eternal reward...I really like these points. I remember hearing a saying. It goes, "I don't care how much you know, until I know how much you care." Sincerely showing good will towards others just because they are worth being shown this to one is soo important.

I like what you say about going to God about our questions, rather than an open forum. There's a lot to be said about this as well.

The Best,

Dove

[Vort]

I'm agnostic and a former lds member. If there is a God, I honestly don't believe I will go to Heaven or rather a substantial portion of me doesn't. This is in large part because virtually every religion/every church believes that those who are not part of their faith are more or less screwed.

Just curious: Back when you were LDS, did you actually ever understand the Church's doctrines regarding salvation?

[Mute]

Just curious: Back when you were LDS, did you actually ever understand the Church's doctrines regarding salvation?

I understand the doctrine. I also don't care for an argument with you about it. Perhaps if you asked in a way that was not implying I didn't know it, I would have been more inclined to answer your question but it just came off as rude.

[Vort]

I understand the doctrine. I also don't care for an argument with you about it. Perhaps if you asked in a way that was not implying I didn't know it, I would have been more inclined to answer your question but it just came off as rude.

I'm not looking for an argument. When I quoted you, I bolded the parts that confused me, because they seem to be contradictory. Do you think that LDS doctrine proclaims that "those who are not part of [the LDS] faith are more or less screwed"?

[Seminarysnoozer]

That there is intrinsic joy to be found in just doing "good" for goodness' sake (it will make us happier) than doing good for some great eternal reward...I really like these points.

There is another option which has been expressed and seemingly ignored which is to do good things, like Jesus did, with an eye single to the glory of God. This is not the same as doing good things with the idea of a reward or with the idea of fear, it is to do good things with the idea of love for our gracious Father in Heaven.

Satan wants to shorten our perspective to things that are experienced here. By focusing so much on the now then it takes away purpose, at least eternal purpose. When one believes there is no purpose to this life then it is impossible to understand God because He is driven by purpose.

This is in part why the word "good" really has to be defined and not used in such broad terms when talking about moral good. There are those that take the view, "eat and drink for tomorrow we shall die" and their definition of "good" is anything that brings them immediate pleasure.

This is a naturalism philosophy or maybe in religious terms we would liken that to listening to carnal drives. To not pay attention to the spiritual or long term, after-this-life consequences to our actions is carnality. We know, in our doctrine that being carnal or wicked never was happiness. We should try not to be so inclusive that we include the vices of Satan as being "good". Things that bring pleasure or that makes a person "feel good" by following the promptings of our natural body are not necessarily good in God's eyes. To do what comes natural without any effort to change the rolling tides of this world will lead to giving into that if I feel it is right (carnal influence) then it is good, the natural man is an enemy to God. "Good" in the eyes of the God would be more exactly defined as obedience to the commandments, in my opinion. If good is defined that way then sure, "there is intrinsic joy to be found in just doing "good" for goodness' sake (it will make us happier)".

Prayer is definitely helpful but I think it also has to start with some belief that there is something more important than this life and there is a purpose to this life, there has to be some focus on the little light of Christ shining through the darkness of carnal passions.

[Heber13]

Holy moly! There is a heck of a lot of pages to this thread.

Thanks for sticking it out to page 6!

I think if you want an answer to this question and you believe a God exists, you would do better to pray and ask rather than asking an online forum.

Good advice. I actually have done a lot of study and prayer on it to know for myself, but I find at church some comments that bother me and actually make me wonder if non-members were there to hear them how offensive or prideful we might sound. My intentions were to honestly and sincerely ask this group how they think of it so I can try to know how my beliefs fit in with main stream mormonism...to try to understand it better and to check my thoughts against others who may have thought these same things.

I have found many responses were loving and very thoughtful. Others are less so.

It has helped me see all the responses, including yours. Thanks!

There are good people in all faiths and religions. I have friends of every faith and those of no faiths. I don't personally care what someone believes. I care what a person is like on the inside. If a person is a good in their heart, and there is a just God, I believe he would present them with every opportunity possible to learn/know and find a way to return to live with him. Whether that be in this life or another. That's what I'd do for my children and it seems like the right thing to me.

I like these thoughts, especially as we focus on what Christ taught about the 2 great commandments.

However, it seems the doctrines in the church teach it is more than being good. When a person accepts Christ as the way to salvation and exaltation, there are commitments and covenants required to show the commitment. I understand and accept that as a way to truly show faith and to connect with God to receive blessings.

In my heart, however, I do not think that automatically then leads to "this is the only way". It is the church restored with truths and priesthood power. But I can't find definitive scripture and teaching that there is no other way, when temple proxy work opens the door to it.

The online forum helps me work through my thoughts, but ultimately, you are correct, personal revelation is needed for my testimony.

Thanks for responding.

[FlaviusHambonius]

Good afternoon Heber13. Thank you for the compliments. I hope you are doing well! :)

I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree. I agree that God prepares a way for His children to accept his gospel and to live by its precepts. I don't agree that God prepares a way for his children to choose how they wish to live the gospel and then live by the precepts they have chosen to follow. I totally agree that God will exercise mercy and justice with perfection in judging us and that our hearts and our desires will either condemn us or justify us. There is, however, a subtle equivocation going on in what you are stating. I think where you err is in supposing that because God allows people a chance to accept and live the gospel outside of mortality that they are somehow exempt from the necessary ordinances of the gospel.

It is important to make clear that from a Mormom frame of reference Mormonism is "God's way". So, to say that Mormonism isn't the only way is to say that God's way isn't the only way. God's way is the only way.

The scripture you quote says that those who did not have a chance to receive but would have received the gospel, given the chance, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. The inference is clearly that they must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, which gospel is found in it's totality with all it's saving ordinances, only within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a.k.a., Mormonism.

Also, there are at least three degrees in the Celestial Kingdom and this scripture doesn't necessarily speak to exaltation.

The scriptures are telling us that people will be given the opportunity to accept the gospel and to have the saving ordinances done for them, either in this life or in the next or some other time.

Regards,

Finrock

Well speaking for myself it seems obvious that when Joseph Smith had this vision and beheld Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom of God it had to have been the highest degree.

verse 3: 'Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and The Son'

He also talks about seeing Adam and Abraham which fits in quite nicely with LDS theology because of the fact that LDS theology says that Adam and Abraham and all of the rest of the great and noble ones were united back to their bodies after the resurection of Christ.

That means to me at least since their spirits had been reunited with their bodies and they were dwelling in the Kingdom of God where the 'blazing throne of God was.... and seated in that blazing throne of God was the Father and the Son......and then he beheld Alvin who had passed away in 1823 and had not had any ordinances performed.....because this vision was occuring in 1836 and none of the ordinances for baptisms for the dead would occur until 1842 during the Nauvoo period.

So in my estimation Alvin had either obtained Exaltation and was dwelling in The Fathers Kingdom along with Adam and Abraham and the rest of the great and noble ones without any ordinances being performed at that point or Joseph Smith was having a vision of something that was going to happen in the future..... but without having the ordinance of baptisms for the dead being revealed and performed at that time.

These were some of the thoughts going around in my head as I read through D&C section 137 -- 138 and also 127 and 128.

It doesn't talk about Alvin still being in the spirit world....it say's Joseph beheld him in the Celestial Kingdom of God......which I interpret to mean the highest degree.

So if Alvin passed in 1823 and The Vision of sec 137 came in 1836 and the sections of baptisms for the dead didn't come until 1842.....why was Alvin seen in vision by Joseph dwelling in the celestail kingdom with God.....instead of the spirit world or spirit paradise until such ordinances were revealed?

Just thoughts and questions going through my mind and curiosity -- I might be out in left feild.... maybe someone could chime in and set me straight.

As for some of the other things being discussed -- my thoughts as of the last few years seems to heading in the direction or notion that God will judge us for striving to be the best that we can be given our circumstances, morals and ethics which have been instilled in us by family, culture and our religious beleifs that we hold dear to our hearts.

In other words we do the best with what we know until we find something that has even more knowledge or value to us -- it's a process and a journey of life....at least to me.

The fact is....at least to me, is that the world is not going to become all Mormons, Evangelicals, Buddists or Muslim until that day when it's all set right.

To always think in black and white terms with no color in between or at least a little gray just doesn't seem realistic to me anymore.....it did perhaps to a point when I was younger and brought up in Mormon culture and doctrine.

Now it's just hard for me to believe that a small minority has the market on over 6 billion souls in the world.....'.the only way is our way' (yea, I know Gods way) mentality just seems a little off....to me at least and that goes for all belief systems who claim such.

Just thoughts and opinions....I'm not trying to offend anyone. Perhaps in my journey I will come to a whole different thought as time goes on.

The most important thing to me is that God blessed me with a Saviour and that I will always have hope in him......regardless of where my journey in life takes me.