The Just.

[Anddenex]

For about two years I have been thinking about this question, and have not come to any good conclusion.

Why does our temple recommend ask if we are just (honest in our dealings), when it appears as if it doesn't really matter, as long as we perceive we are just?

It is a subjective question, by which, those who aren't just, say they are.

Would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Anddenex

[beefche]

What temple recommend asks if we are just? I'm not sure if you are referring to a temple recommend question (which I don't remember any of them asking about being "just") or you are talking about something else.

[Misshalfway]

All of the answers given in the temple rec interview, are based on our own perceptions and conclusions. I don't see how this one question is different than the others. If a person wants to misrepresent themselves, they certainly can. And a person can split hairs over technicalities if they want too. The interview isn't a perfect science and doesn't need to be in order to be effective tool.

[Misshalfway]

What temple recommend asks if we are just? I'm not sure if you are referring to a temple recommend question (which I don't remember any of them asking about being "just") or you are talking about something else.

I just read them. I don't see anything about being "just".

Are you referring to question 9 "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?"

[Anddenex]

I just read them. I don't see anything about being "just".

Are you referring to question 9 "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?"

Yes. In my mind, I was replacing honest with just.

[Timpman]

I think it asks if we rip people off.

[skippy740]

To me, I think it asks if you keep your commitments to your fellow man.

Mosiah 2:17

17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

[Leah]

To me, I think it asks if you keep your commitments to your fellow man.

Mosiah 2:17

Can you expand on what you mean by "keep your commitments"?

I know of one person who bullies, lies and manipulates on a regular basis. To me, this is not being honest in your dealings, yet she holds a recommend.

[HiJolly]

For about two years I have been thinking about this question, and have not come to any good conclusion.

Why does our temple recommend ask if we are just (honest in our dealings), when it appears as if it doesn't really matter, as long as we perceive we are just?

It is a subjective question, by which, those who aren't just, say they are.

Would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

Good thinking! BTW, all thinking is subjective, even if you're being strictly rational. You probably know that.

It matters because if your conscience concerning the question doesn't agree with what you say or do, then you don't have the power of faith. And if you don't have that, then not only do you not have power from on high, but you also are not entitled to the companionship of the Holy Ghost, and all the peace and gifts that can come with that.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I know of one person who bullies, lies and manipulates on a regular basis. To me, this is not being honest in your dealings, yet she holds a recommend.

If so, then she is damning herself spiritually. Which can sometimes spill over into physical life, though not always, from my observation. Rarely do these people feel at peace with themselves.

HiJolly

[Dravin]

I find the subjectivity of the temple recommend questions not to be a concern but entirely appropriate. I feel that the temple recommend questions are primarily for our own benefit. The one that really matters is the last one asked, the proceeding ones are to help us focus our minds and spirits into a proper frame of mind for that last question:

Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

[skippy740]

Can you expand on what you mean by "keep your commitments"?

I know of one person who bullies, lies and manipulates on a regular basis. To me, this is not being honest in your dealings, yet she holds a recommend.

It's my own interpretation, but:

- Do you pay your obligations on time?

- Do you follow through on what you say you are going to do?

Basically, are you an example of Christ in your business dealings as much as you possibly can?

Now, of course, life happens. You can't do this perfectly, 100% of the time.

For example: You take out a loan or charge something on a credit card. You lose your job the next week and have no cash flow to pay for the charge. You do the best you can, but life does happen. It's not as though you borrowed money without the intention of being able to pay it all back.

Just a variation on the following scripture:

Mosiah 4:24-25

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

[skippy740]

Can you expand on what you mean by "keep your commitments"?

I know of one person who bullies, lies and manipulates on a regular basis. To me, this is not being honest in your dealings, yet she holds a recommend.

In this instance, to me, it's a violation of the two great commandments.

However, is she even aware that she is doing this? Sometimes we can get caught up in behavior patterns and not realize how destructive they really are to others and themselves.

[mordorbund]

Take a look at your temple recommend. There are 3 gatekeeper signatures that go on it: 1) Your Stake President's, 2) Your Bishop's, 3) Yours.

The recommend questions don't determine whether your fellow man thinks you have faith in Christ (or if Christ thinks you have faith in Christ), they ask an accounting of your own perception of worthiness. If the Bishop or Stake President has any concerns on worthiness, they can use the questions to springboard into a discussion. But my boss has yet to sign my recommend.

[Anddenex]

First - Thank you everyone for sharing their thoughts on this subject. I understand this is a sensitive topic and appreciate the sincere posts.

Second - Thank you for not making or any assumed presumption regarding my heart and the intention behind this question. Note: I have a few personal experiences with regard to this question, which has sunk me into, for a lack of better words, a low valley concerning this topic.

Third - Mordorbund - "my boss has yet to sign my recommend also", but as with everyone else I am hoping myself and my family qualify for that signature also.

Thank you.

[skippy740]

But my boss has yet to sign my recommend.

I admit that I don't quite understand this statement... unless boss = wife?

In my own mindset (and yes, I admit that I'm weird), I'm self-employed - including when I work or report to someone else. I am the president of my own personal services corporation... and I offer my time for a wage or on a project basis (commission).

It's not my manager, supervisor, regulatory authorities or anyone else who determines if "I am honest in my dealings with my fellow man"... it's me and my own sense of laws, morality and ethics.

Because I'm responsible for my own actions, I am my own 'boss' over myself... so my 'boss' (me) does sign the recommend.

[Vort]

I admit that I don't quite understand this statement... unless boss = wife?

I.e. only himself, his bishop (or bishopric member), and his stake president (or stake presidency member) sign the recommend. His boss's opinion, and everyone else's, is irrelevant.

[Leah]

It's my own interpretation, but:

- Do you pay your obligations on time?

- Do you follow through on what you say you are going to do?

Basically, are you an example of Christ in your business dealings as much as you possibly can?

Now, of course, life happens. You can't do this perfectly, 100% of the time.

For example: You take out a loan or charge something on a credit card. You lose your job the next week and have no cash flow to pay for the charge. You do the best you can, but life does happen. It's not as though you borrowed money without the intention of being able to pay it all back.

Just a variation on the following scripture:

Mosiah 4:24-25

So someone who regularly and consistently lies is still considered to be "honest" in their dealings? I am not talking things like "Yes, that dress looks good on you". I am talking about blowing off callings because you "have another obligation" when you are actually sitting at home watching TV during the time you are supposed to be performing your calling. I am talking about bribing someone else to do your calling and then telling them "this is just between the two of us", so that others think you are the one doing those tasks. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I currently live with this person (to end soon!) and I watch them lie every day.

Some of what you have written makes it appear that it only applies to business dealings.

[Leah]

I admit that I don't quite understand this statement... unless boss = wife?

In my own mindset (and yes, I admit that I'm weird), I'm self-employed - including when I work or report to someone else. I am the president of my own personal services corporation... and I offer my time for a wage or on a project basis (commission).

It's not my manager, supervisor, regulatory authorities or anyone else who determines if "I am honest in my dealings with my fellow man"... it's me and my own sense of laws, morality and ethics.

Because I'm responsible for my own actions, I am my own 'boss' over myself... so my 'boss' (me) does sign the recommend.

So...someone can be completely dishonest in reality...but as long as they themselves have determined they are "honest", then that makes them honest? I could steal money but as long as I think it's "honest", I am "honest"?

[Anddenex]

I admit that I don't quite understand this statement... unless boss = wife?

In my own mindset (and yes, I admit that I'm weird), I'm self-employed - including when I work or report to someone else. I am the president of my own personal services corporation... and I offer my time for a wage or on a project basis (commission).

It's not my manager, supervisor, regulatory authorities or anyone else who determines if "I am honest in my dealings with my fellow man"... it's me and my own sense of laws, morality and ethics.

Because I'm responsible for my own actions, I am my own 'boss' over myself... so my 'boss' (me) does sign the recommend.

Unless I misunderstood Mordorbund, I believe "my boss" was the Lord. If the Temple represents the Celestial Kingdom, and the only person who pleads our cause before our Father in Heaven is our Lord and Savior.

I interpreted his meaning, as the Lord needs to sign off on my recommend. I could be wrong, but that is the way I understood "boss".

[skippy740]

So...someone can be completely dishonest in reality...but as long as they themselves have determined they are "honest", then that makes them honest? I could steal money but as long as I think it's "honest", I am "honest"?

Just don't ask your political representatives that question!

[skippy740]

Some of what you have written makes it appear that it only applies to business dealings.

Well, I'm a "business" kind of a guy. :)

It doesn't have to be a formal agreement. In essence, are you a person of your word?

BTW, these are my own ways of interpreting the TR question, and I've never implied that anyone else has to conform to my way of thinking. :)

[mordorbund]

I.e. only himself, his bishop (or bishopric member), and his stake president (or stake presidency member) sign the recommend. His boss's opinion, and everyone else's, is irrelevant.

This is what I meant about my boss not signing my recommend. The questions isn't, "Does your fellowman think your are honest in your dealings with him?" or "Do the leaders of the Church feel like you sustain them?" The questions focus on my assessment of my own worthiness. My Elders Quorum President may not feel like I sustain him. My boss may feel like I don't put in an honest day's work for a day's wages. Their opinion doesn't matter unless it becomes a matter of concern for one of the 3 gatekeepers. If any of those 3 (including myself) feels like I'm not living up to one of the principles, it becomes a point of discussion that we work to resolve.

[mordorbund]

Unless I misunderstood Mordorbund, I believe "my boss" was the Lord. If the Temple represents the Celestial Kingdom, and the only person who pleads our cause before our Father in Heaven is our Lord and Savior.

I interpreted his meaning, as the Lord needs to sign off on my recommend. I could be wrong, but that is the way I understood "boss".

I need the Lord to sign off on my life. That is a lot more stringent than the Temple Recommend interview (as you noted, that is only a type and shadow). Those questions are a lot more personal and specific than what I get asked in the Bishop's office. Also, the questions change regularly as I grow and progress. I see it as being granted a Limited Recommend periodically that has to be renewed often. There is an eternal signoff that will eventually be granted (God willing), but there is no reason* why I can't receive His approbation now.

*Except the obvious rebellion, pride, hard-heartedness stuff.

[Bensalem]

For about two years I have been thinking about this question, and have not come to any good conclusion.

Why does our temple recommend ask if we are just (honest in our dealings), when it appears as if it doesn't really matter, as long as we perceive we are just?

It is a subjective question, by which, those who aren't just, say they are.

Would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

Honesty is a virtue and so the question relates to your self-perceived virtue. In all the questions the interviewer has the gift of discernment by the Holy Ghost to determine the truth of your answers. Of course, deception is possible but that is no way to gain access to the Temple.