Why I disagree...

[Dravin]

I was looking at another thread on this forum and someone said their son was Gay and someone responded they would go to hell because of it. I thought Mormon's do not believe in original sin but I must be wrong. Being Gay is not a choice, if it is fundamentally sinful therefore every gay person born effectively has original sin.

Said person was mistaken, well possibly, since all we have is your paraphrase of an anymous post I don't know if you may have misconstrued what they said or not. Having homosexual attractions is not a sin. Participating in a homosexual sexual relationship would be a sin, but that is clearly a choice.

[Vort]

I was looking at another thread on this forum and someone said their son was Gay and someone responded they would go to hell because of it.

I don't believe this. I have never observed such a statement on this forum. If what you say is true, it is easy enough to provide a link to said statement. If I'm being naive, please disabuse me of my naivete by proving me wrong.

[Vort]

Vort has equated homosexuality to having sex with goats and pedophilia.

Untrue, Hewitt. As JaG pointed out, this is a gross misrepresentation of my response to you.

I am happy to engage you in conversation and respond to your requests. In return, I expect you to read what I write and not make false attributions, unsupportable allegations, or outright misrepresentations of my words.

I will assume you simply read my responses carelessly. Please go back through my responses, read them in context, and then respond to what I actually said rather than to your knee-jerk (and false) representation of what you wrongly think I must have meant.

[Faded]

Well I personally think it's a little rude to patronise me on the way I stated my question. It seems to be a British trait to apologise for thing's before any wrong has been committed. I stated I was an Atheist and a Homosexual at the outset because it has helped to shape my way of thinking. You are correct I do not know a great deal about the LDS church if I did I would not feel the need to question you.

Well, Here are the sum total of actual questions in your original post:

Why would you worship a God you fear? Surely you would get more inspiration from a positive God at least who is merciful and forgives?

Forget the religion for a second do you really need that to be a good person? Really?

You will have to forgive me if those didn't sound like actual questions. Those are leading rhetorical questions phrased in a very patronising way, belittling the beliefs that you assume we have. Implying that you already know that we practice our religion out of utter terror of deity, assuming that we condemn all who disagree with us to burn in hell for eternity and that we think there's no such thing as a good person without religion.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints departs significantly from orthodox Christian dogma on a great many points. The common sense approach is to ask questions like, "Is it true that you believe _______?" That way you can be disabused of any incorrect assumptions you might have about our beliefs.

I have had discussions of people of other religion's in fact I have them all the time so don't feel to honoured.

From my experience actually many people of the religions you have just listed do not believe Homosexuality is sinful and wrong, in fact I know some very religious homosexuals. That is not to say that there are not many people against it there are - I just can't grasp my head around why so many religions preach love and peace yet they say that someone will go to hell for being something that is not their choice.

And I have no doubt that you've encountered a wide array of opinions on the matter, but what is the official doctrinal stance taken by the religion they are a part of? You may find a Catholic who does not believe in the Trinity, ex-Nihilo creation or infant baptism. That does not mean that Catholic accurately represents the teachings of the Catholic Church.

As to the notion of burning in hell for all eternity for being gay: If you think we believe that then you're grasp of LDS theology is pretty much nonexistent.

I have no problem with you stating up front that you are and atheist and that you are a homosexual. Saying as much isn't going to bother me one bit. It's honest disclosure and appreciated. The rest of your original post -- to me -- came across as confrontational and patronising, yet full of incorrect assumptions about what we actually believe.

My suggestion would be to ask questions until you feel you know enough about our beliefs to carry on an intelligent conversation first, then if you still feel so inclined feel free to pursue the debate of the homosexuality issue.

[Echo2002]

And I am afraid homosexuality is perfectly normal it is observed in thousands of species. There are millions of homosexuals in the world many many more than are members of this church.

Whether you think there is a purpose to homosexuality from God or evolution what is absolute is that it exists. Of course if everyone was homosexual the species would become extinct - so we have evolved for the majority of people to wish to reproduce. But for a species to flourish not everyone has to procreate.

So just because something is observed in thousands of species (I'd like to see the source for that), you think it's perfectly normal? The human body is imperfect, it has many flaws. For instance, I was born without elbows, and there are probably thousands of others born the same way, but by no means do I believe that those who are born with elbows are abnormal and I'm the normal one.

So you believe that we were all homosexual at one point, and that only some of us has evolved to be heterosexual? If that is what you are saying, that makes no biological sense whatsoever. Yes, for a species to flourish, they have to be able to procreate, that is the only reason a species is going to survive.

I don't believe for one second anyone on this forum ever said someone was going to hell because they were homosexual. I've never heard a General Authority say it either.

No human being on this earth has the capability to judge another human being because we are not able to look into a person's heart, only God can do that. We are given guidelines from Christ's teachings to follow and we are told if we follow those guidelines and we do it with a pure heart then we will return with him again. We have been given the gift of repentance because God knew that we would make mistakes. No where that I know of does the Lord tell us we have X number of times to get on the right track and change our lives so that we can return to him. Our chances while we are alive are without number.

It is unfortunate that people use God and religion to justify their hatred toward a group of people. On the other hand I think I can use what I know to be true to disagree with how someone is living their life. I don't believe that disagreeing is synonymous with hatred.

[Leah]

I don't promote forcing people to do anything. All I am promoting here is love and tolerance. And I am afraid homosexuality is perfectly normal it is observed in thousands of species. There are millions of homosexuals in the world many many more than are members of this church.

Whether you think there is a purpose to homosexuality from God or evolution what is absolute is that it exists. Of course if everyone was homosexual the species would become extinct - so we have evolved for the majority of people to wish to reproduce. But for a species to flourish not everyone has to procreate. There is no such thing as a super-human everyone is programmed in a different way from their appearance, to the way the chemicals in their brain interact. People do not choose who they are attracted to - it is no different from choosing how tall you are or the colour of your hair.

What I want to know is what you propose. Should I pretend to be straight and attracted to women, lie get married and have children and be unhappy? Should I be single and live a lonely life? Don't you preach the importance of loving relationships? Should I dedicate my live trying to overcome what my body is biologically incline to feel?

I was looking at another thread on this forum and someone said their son was Gay and someone responded they would go to hell because of it. I thought Mormon's do not believe in original sin but I must be wrong. Being Gay is not a choice, if it is fundamentally sinful therefore every gay person born effectively has original sin.

Hmmm...I am missing the part where you are "promoting" love and tolerance, since I am not seeing those qualities from you. It seems more like you came here to attack and chastise.

There IS a choice in whom you are attracted to. It is not the same as having no control over your height. That's a pretty ludicrous comparison. There is nothing I can do to make myself taller, no choice I make will affect that. We all have the ability to make choices surrounding attraction....I could be initially attracted to a man, only to find out he is married, and make a choice to end that attraction and never act on that attraction. I am currently single. I can find a man attractive, but make the choice not to engage in sexual relations with that man, because we are not married. It is a choice. We are the ones in control of our bodies and what we do with them.

You have those same choices available to you.

I would like to see your link to the supposed statement that someone here said their gay son was going to hell. That is not a line of thought - nor terminology - that would normally be expressed by someone who is LDS. Not everyone who posts here is LDS, as you must know.

[Hewitt]

Well I am afraid I cannot find the poster who stated Gay's would go to hell, I came across it yesterday using the search function on the forum but I can't seem to find it. I saw the post. If you don't want to believe me fine.

Spring Girl said I believe we were all homosexual at one point and some evolved to be straight? I don't know why you got that impression. There is clearly a gay gene which can randomly manifest itself in people hence why the proportion of people that has been homosexual has been pretty much constant throughout history.

Leah is conflating being attracted to people and sexual activity. It is a choice whether you act on your desires, but it is not a choice over what you are attracted to. As a straight person can you honestly say that you can just choose not to be attracted at all to the opposite sex? It is not a switch which can be turned on and off when it suit's a person's circumstances.

People are going off on tangents about the way I phrased question's and the choice of words etc - in hindsight I could have phrased thing's better. What I would still be interested in finding out is what do you propose for a homosexual? How should they live their life?

[Saldrin]

There is clearly a gay gene

No there isn't. And you saying there is one does not make it true.

[Leah]

There is clearly a gay gene which can randomly manifest itself in people hence why the proportion of people that has been homosexual has been pretty much constant throughout history.

If there is "clearly" a "gay gene", I am sure you can support that statement with documentation. Please do so for our edification.

[Hewitt]

If there is "clearly" a "gay gene", I am sure you can support that statement with documentation. Please do so for our edification.

Ok then:

'Gay gene' survives through generations as female relatives of homosexual men 'have more babies' | Mail Online

Could homosexual genes be naturally selected? | Psychology Today

BBC NEWS | Health | How homosexuality is 'inherited'

Why Gays Don?t Go Extinct | LiveScience

Being gay is in the genes, say researchers | Education | guardian.co.uk

Research confirms 'gay gene' discovery - News - The Independent

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html

Dr. Deb: Genetics and Sexuality: The Gay Gene

Obviously you can all find opposing evidence, and I can find more sources in favour. However as far as I am concerned whether you think being gay or not is a choice, why should it matter? What is important is love, kindness, honesty and tolerance.

[estradling75]

Ok then:

Obviously you can all find opposing evidence, and I can find more sources in favour. However as far as I am concerned whether you think being gay or not is a choice, why should it matter? What is important is love, kindness, honesty and tolerance.

Then practice it... Show love, kindness, honesty, and tolerance toward people that have strongly disagreeing opinions then yourself. Don't jump on how wrong they are and try to get them to change. Be the change you seek

[Misshalfway]

What I would still be interested in finding out is what do you propose for a homosexual? How should they live their life?

I can't imagine how hard it must be to struggle with something that is so socially and religiously unacceptable. For gay LDS folks, my understanding is that it is very difficult to come to terms with both the religion and the sexual feelings. But I do know some who have come to terms and have found a way that works for them.

Some leave the religion all together.

Others leave but take with them many of the beliefs/standards of LDS teachings such as living a sexually disciplined life and displaying sexual affection inside monogamy.

Others learned to separate "who" they were from their sexuality all together. They don't make their decisions based upon the dictates of their sexual inclinations. They make lifestyle decisions based upon their values. There is no self deception or incongruent denials in this. There is no dishonesty. In fact, there is more of all of those things.

[jerome1232]

Those articles are not stating what you claim they state. Indeed one states....

The exact dynamics through which someone winds up gay are “still an open question,” said Clinton Anderson, the director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender

Another which does back up your claim states

Dr Hamer refused to answer questions on allegations he is under investigation by the US government's Office of Research Integrity, which examines suggestions of scientific misconduct.

Again another states (emphasis mine)

Scientists doing DNA studies on homosexual brothers pinpointed 'culprit' genetic material to a region of the X chromosome that mothers pass on to their offspring.

But other researchers in the US have not been able to replicate these findings.

I'm not going to each and every link, but every one I did read just doesn't hold up for me.

In all honesty I don't think the LGBT community wants to be labeled as largely a genetic disorder, do you?

Edited July 15, 2012 by jerome1232

[prisonchaplain]

The Savior said "if you love" me keep my commandments, not "if you fear me".

You are right. It was Solomon who said that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and that the meaning of life is to fear God and keep his commands.

[Anddenex]

What I would still be interested in finding out is what do you propose for a homosexual? How should they live their life?

I would propose exactly what this brother has done with his life.

The Weed: Club Unicorn: In which I come out of the closet on our ten year anniversary

This is great article signifying the difference between homosexual attractions verses giving in to ones desires which are contrary to the Lord's purposes.

This is a "Gay" man, who, as with anybody else, if he proves faithful in keeping the commandments of God and endures to the end will be exhalted.

There is no church doctrine which specifies a "Gay" man/woman will go to hell. Members, may have their own opinion, but that is all it is.

This we do know, that if a person (e.g. Male, Female, Lesbian, Homosexual), act against the commandments of the Lord, with an unrepentant heart, then they will find themselves unclean at the judgement bar, and no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God.

[prisonchaplain]

I've yet to meet anyone who is sincerely Christian who is so out of fear. I've never had anyone tell me that was the case.

I'm pretty sure that's what atheists say to make themselves feel better. Because it's too hard to actually ask a Christian.

Never say never. This is from a CBS source, ironically. It details how the sermon, "Sinners in the hands of an angry God," by Jonathan Edwards, led to a passionate and sincere revival.

Awakened to the holy: "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" in ritualized context | Christianity and Literature | Find Articles

BTW...I know that the LDS doctrine of hell is significantly different than for Protestants and Catholics. I care little about converting anyone to believing in the evangelical hell. On the other hand, I do defend our preaching about it. Since I believe it is a scripturally sound doctrine, and a place to be avoided in both of our traditions, I contend that it should be taught, and that those who find themselves converting to faith because they do not want to go to hell have just as much right to the kingdom as those who respond to the love and grace of our Sovereign.

Edited July 15, 2012 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

I would propose exactly what this brother has done with his life.

The Weed: Club Unicorn: In which I come out of the closet on our ten year anniversary

This is great article signifying the difference between homosexual attractions verses giving in to ones desires which are contrary to the Lord's purposes.

This is a "Gay" man, who, as with anybody else, if he proves faithful in keeping the commandments of God and endures to the end will be exhalted.

There is no church doctrine which specifies a "Gay" man/woman will go to hell. Members, may have their own opinion, but that is all it is.

This we do know, that if a person (e.g. Male, Female, Lesbian, Homosexual), act against the commandments of the Lord, with an unrepentant heart, then they will find themselves unclean at the judgement bar, and no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of God.

I certainly wouldn't recommend this for everyone, as it would require two people who are exceptionally committed to making it work, on top of loving each other very much. My cousin tried to do so after his mission and it was a huge failure ending in a lot of pain for both he and his ex-wife.

However, for those for whom it wouldn't work, a lifetime of abstinence and finding joy in familial and friendly relationships would be the ideal. That's not to say it would be easy, but it isn't for any of the faithful LDS people who don't enjoy the opportunity to marry in this life. They still manage to find joy and fulfillment, and hope that the blessings of marriage in God's bounds will come in the next life.

I believe that people with same sex attraction will be freed of those bonds in the next life, and those who have been faithful will have the opportunity to have a joyful marriage and family.

[Hewitt]

Then practice it... Show love, kindness, honesty, and tolerance toward people that have strongly disagreeing opinions then yourself. Don't jump on how wrong they are and try to get them to change. Be the change you seek

I think it is time I moved on from this forum now. Thank you to everyone who made me welcome in my short time here. What I would say to you all is that I will carry on living honest to myself. My homosexuality is part of who I am. I will try and live a loving, caring and tolerant life. If in your eyes that is an immoral or sinful life then I make no apologies.

One day when one of you has a child who turns out to be homosexual all I ask is that you show them love and understanding, embrace them for who they are please don't try and tell them they are sinful and must change or they will go to hell. Tell them that you love them and you want them to be happy - don't make their life a misery and don't turn them away.

I have a huge amount of respect for many of your teaching's about the importance of family. As a member of the British Conservative party I understand the importance of institutions like that for the strength of society, and I would never seek to diminish that. That is why I think it is so important for people to accept other's for how they are (within reason of course), that is why I think you should love people regardless otherwise families fall apart.

One of the reason's I was motivated to come to this forum was because my best friend committed suicide recently. He was a gay Mormon he tried to live a straight lifestyle but he couldn't being Gay was part of who he was. Nothing could change that. His family abandoned him, told him he was sinful, God would punish him he must repent and change. He just wanted to live a life of happiness and love, whilst being honest to himself. He wasn't allowed that opportunity and he couldn't cope it all ended with a trip to Beachy Head.

Putting all the religious doctrine to one side for a moment, to earn God's favour and get into heaven living a life of love and kindness should be the most important thing if the God you worship is what Christian's say he is. In the bigger picture thing's such as homosexuality are irrelevant, Love and Kindness is of far more value and should more than make up for any perceived negatives of homosexuality. Sorry if I have offended anyone that was not my intent.

Love to you all and goodbye.

[Misshalfway]

It's really sad what happened to your friend. It was sad the way his family reacted, and even more sad that your friend felt suicide was his only answer. There are better ways to handle these issues, as hard as they are for religious people and for those who struggle with their sexual orientation. There are certainly lessons to learn from this story for everyone. And I wish you'd included this information in your OP. It certainly explains things a little more.

My brother is gay. He decided to leave the religion. And HE decided to cut us (his family) from his life. This was not our choice. He decided in his mind that we would reject him, so he decided to cut us off before we could. Sad really. I always felt hurt he didn't give me a chance. Since then, he has reestablished an arms length relationship with us. We can now hug and laugh together, but he won't allow any discussions about his life.

My point in sharing this is that the understanding, kindness, listening, long suffering, love, tolerance, etc.....is a two way street. It doesn't come instantly just because we want it or need it or demand it. We have to build it together. And that usually means that we must extend great patience and lots of listening to one another. Too bad we couldn't have had more of that here.

[Hewitt]

Ok this really is the last post. His Parent's could not accept him because they believed the teaching's of the LDS church is the ultimate truth - as the church teaches homosexuality is morally wrong they could accept or tolerate him for the way he was. They put religion before love. What I say is you should put love before anything else, before scripture, before law, before Jesus, before God. That is not to say these thing's are mutually exclusive but I think love should always take precedent over any religious teaching. If you follow the path of love and kindness you can never go wrong.

[Leah]

Ok then:

'Gay gene' survives through generations as female relatives of homosexual men 'have more babies' | Mail Online

Could homosexual genes be naturally selected? | Psychology Today

BBC NEWS | Health | How homosexuality is 'inherited'

Why Gays Don?t Go Extinct | LiveScience

Being gay is in the genes, say researchers | Education | guardian.co.uk

Research confirms 'gay gene' discovery - News - The Independent

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html

Dr. Deb: Genetics and Sexuality: The Gay Gene

Obviously you can all find opposing evidence, and I can find more sources in favour. However as far as I am concerned whether you think being gay or not is a choice, why should it matter? What is important is love, kindness, honesty and tolerance.

So if just as much opposing evidence can be provided, how can you come to the conclusion that you are right? Or is it simply that you choose the 'evidence' to support that which you want to be true? Anyone can do that, but it proves nothing.

Your last statement is rather ironic, as I don't see you displaying the qualities that you insist others need to have. You have not come here seeking any kind of discussion or with a heart open to learning, you come here to chastise us and tell us we are "wrong". How much love, kindness, and tolerance does that show? If honesty were important to you, you would be open to hearing opinions other than your own, but you are not. You are only interested in proving that you are "right" and hide it behind protestations of wanting to be "loving". Do you think it would be "loving" to go on a forum dedicated to being gay and telling people there they are wrong? If not, why do you consider it "loving" to be doing that here?

If you are genuinely interested in those qualities, I would suggest opening your mind and your heart, read the Book of Mormon, and HONESTLY seek to find out if it is true.

[Leah]

Ok then:

'Gay gene' survives through generations as female relatives of homosexual men 'have more babies' | Mail Online

Could homosexual genes be naturally selected? | Psychology Today

BBC NEWS | Health | How homosexuality is 'inherited'

Why Gays Don?t Go Extinct | LiveScience

Being gay is in the genes, say researchers | Education | guardian.co.uk

Research confirms 'gay gene' discovery - News - The Independent

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/opinion/sunday/bruni-gay-wont-go-away-genetic-or-not.html

Dr. Deb: Genetics and Sexuality: The Gay Gene

Obviously you can all find opposing evidence, and I can find more sources in favour. However as far as I am concerned whether you think being gay or not is a choice, why should it matter? What is important is love, kindness, honesty and tolerance.

From one of your links:

"But Dr Hamer said it was far from certain that any man who inherits the "gay gene" will become homosexual".

So according to your own sources - AND the man who conducted the study- even if a gay gene exists (and the research is not conclusive on this, it is no guarantee that someone will be homosexual because of it.

This would indicate that there is still the possibility of choice being involved.

By the way, Dr. Hamer was under investigation for scientific misconduct, which leads me to wonder how trustworthy his research is.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Leah
added

[Hewitt]

From one of your links:

"But Dr Hamer said it was far from certain that any man who inherits the "gay gene" will become homosexual".

So according to your own sources, even if a gay gene exists (and the research is not conclusive on this, it is no guarantee that someone will be homosexual because of it.

This would indicate that there is still the possibility of choice being involved.

Once again I seem to be making another 'last' post. I am sorry but what you have just said shows you have very little understanding of how Biology works. I am no expert but just because a gene is present does not mean it is active. The gay gene is most likely a recessive gene meaning that if a dominant (straight) allele is present then the person will not turn out be homosexual which explains why the majority of people are heterosexual.

BBC - GCSE Bitesize: Alleles

You may think I come across as showing qualities which are not those which I aspire other people to have. I would say two thing's: I am not perfect and no I do not totally follow what I preach but I try my best to. Secondly I am not hiding behind pretending to be loving. I am here because I am loving, I think your religion and religion in general can come in the way of being totally loving to all, hence why I can come across as trying to prove I am right.

I love you all hence why I care so much about trying to share what I think is most important about how to live life.

In regards to the evidence just because there is opposing evidence does not mean I am therefore unable to come to a conclusion, and I did not say there was an equal amount of opposing evidence.

[prisonchaplain]

I realize that the OP is planning to depart. Also, that we have at least one, and I believe a couple of posters who also able to explain the point of view that same sex attraction is largely genetic and involuntary.

This site seems to be relatively objective, offering links with a variety of perspectives: genetics homosexuality

The conclusion it seemed to draw is that no attraction is completely genetic, and yet, clearly, some folks seem strongly predisposed to what they favor--despite social and moral presures.

[Vort]

The gay gene

The very idea that a complex, multifaceted behavioral trait such as homosexuality is controlled by a single gene is so absurd as to be laughable. Whatever the causes of homosexuality, the very fact that you reduce the argument to "the gay gene" makes it impossible to take you seriously. You very clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I notice that, other than concede that you can't find the post you claim came from this site, you have failed to respond at all to what I wrote previously except to misquote and falsely represent me. This, too, makes it exceedingly difficult to take you seriously.

To my best perception, you are a missionary for homosexual conduct. While you are free to hold whatever beliefs you like, this is not the appropriate place to preach your particular gospel of homosexuality and (what you term) "love". If I am mistaken and you are sincerely looking for discussion and understanding, might I suggest you show earnest of your sincerity by actually engaging in such discussion rather than blustering on in attacking straw men and proclaiming your not-always-very-coherent opinions? Seriously, I and others are perfectly willing to engage you, but only on the condition that you actually engage.