Grace Vs. Works

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Thank M. That is what I have been trying to say. An outcome not a prerequisite for grace (we can't earn the grace). From what I'm taking from my reading. :)

[Maureen]

But if you are saved by Grace only what reason is there to try and follow Christs will?

But that's the wonderful power of Grace. If our faith in God's ability to save us is genuine, then we know we have become righteous through Christ, and we are given the ability to stay righteous through sanctification of the Holy Spirit. Because we still live in this world, we must always be aware that sin is always there even tempting those who have faith in God. But if we truly believe in the power of Grace, we can overcome anything.

May grace and peace be lavished on you as you grow in the rich knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord! I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. (2 Peter 1:2-8)

M.

[rosie321]

But that's the wonderful power of Grace. If our faith in God's ability to save us is genuine, then we know we have become righteous through Christ, and we are given the ability to stay righteous through sanctification of the Holy Spirit. Because we still live in this world, we must always be aware that sin is always there even tempting those who have faith in God. But if we truly believe in the power of Grace, we can overcome anything.

May grace and peace be lavished on you as you grow in the rich knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord! I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. (2 Peter 1:2-8)

I believe that theres more alike then unalike and that we do agree on this. As you said that if our faith is there we will learn and grow as expected. We will do what "work" is expected. Everyone does start out from a point of grace and is fueled by grace as they carry on. I think the real important questions are what do you think the grace will do for you? Is grace all thats important for salvation? I've known many people of differing faiths who look down on LDS because they believe that there are works that must be done. I've also seen good christian people as I believe PC posted that don't feel they have to do anything. Its pulling teeth because they are not bound. They don't understand as I tried to explain in the last post that grace is needed every step of the way. With that grace you will do what is expected. It is the fueling strength, peace and comfort to do the expected job.

[Maureen]

...Everyone does start out from a point of grace and is fueled by grace as they carry on.

I agree!

I think the real important questions are what do you think the grace will do for you? Is grace all thats important for salvation? I've known many people of differing faiths who look down on LDS because they believe that there are works that must be done. I've also seen good christian people as I believe PC posted that don't feel they have to do anything. Its pulling teeth because they are not bound. They don't understand as I tried to explain in the last post that grace is needed every step of the way. With that grace you will do what is expected. It is the fueling strength, peace and comfort to do the expected job.

For me personally, grace gives me the ability to get to know God. I find God fascinating. I believe that eternity can be spent just getting to know God. I see the mankind and God relationship as complex and mysterious. Mankind has always had the desire to learn and grow. We've been created to be curious about ourselves and the world/universe around us. We've invented and discovered a vast array of gadgets, mechanism, etc; anything that can add value to our lives here. I see God as our creator who gave us the ability to look for answers.

I don't see doing "work" (in relationship to grace) as a necessity or expectation from God to achieve salvation. I believe God saves us because he wants to. I believe that God's grace provides for us the ability to witness to others (about God's love and grace), by making our "work" the fruit of our salvation. We perform the work because we want to not because we think we need to. I don't believe that someone who is saved by grace performs their "work" looking for a reward, I believe they do it because they love God; and in loving God they also love their fellowman.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

The heart of the matter:

1. Those who emphasize grace wish us never to forget God's great, unfathomable, extravagant love gift. He is our Creator, Lover, King, Master, Savior, and only hope. Nothing we teach or believe should lessen our understanding of God's great goodness.

2. Those who emphasize works wish us never to forget that we owe God our best behavior. We must never trivialize or denigrate what He gives us by disrespectfully disregarding his commands, his ways. As Ted Koppel once quipped, "They're not the 10 Suggestions."

Maybe the reason we struggle with these two truths (grace and holiness) is that neither side wants to diminish their cherished truths. Perhaps there is no need for contradiction--and that if we revel in God's grace, while "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," will have our fill of both.

(I know I've not answered the question--but hopefully, by seeing what's behind each position, we can at least gain from both sides).

[rosie321]

PC , I think you did an excellent summarization.

Maybe the reason we struggle with these two truths (grace and holiness) is that neither side wants to diminish their cherished truths. Perhaps there is no need for contradiction--and that if we revel in God's grace, while "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," will have our fill of both.

(I know I've not answered the question--but hopefully, by seeing what's behind each position, we can at least gain from both sides).

I think you put it as simply understandable as this issue could ever be understood.

It reminds me of the gooy cornstarch /water stuff I make with the kids. It looks a certain way. When you pick it up it feels differently as you hold it and play with it. Its the wierdest thing no matter how many times you do. Nothing has changed it contains the same ingredient. Yet everytime I go back to it it amazes me. I may learn more of the science behind it, find better words to describe it. But wow. That stuff still fascinates me. Crazy I know.

Thats what the gospel is like to me. Hard to totally put into just a few words. Words are inadequate to describe. Its something best experienced. Yet I think your summary and the thoughts before really have been helpful at explaining and summarizing.

I just love LDS talk. Thanks all.

[CrimsonKairos]

A box of cereal furnished an example today of what I've been saying. Funny, I know.

The front of the box said, "Free keychain with $5 donation and 2 UPC's." At first I was like, "Ummm, that's not free buddy. Two UPC's from two boxes of cereal plus $5 is about $13! So it's not a free keychain...it's a $13 keychain!

But then again, they're not selling the keychain in a store. It's a "gift" for those who donate $5.

While I'd never bother getting the "free" keychain (what a joke), I think there is a certain parallel with salvation.

After reading Maureen's and PC's posts, I think we all agree more than I'm conveying. Let me sum up my views in a new way.

Just as faith without works is dead, works without charity (love, i.e. 1 Cor. 13 definition) is dead.

Dead works are worthless eternally.

The ironic thing is that the only ones who truly appreciate grace are those who try to obey all the commandments. It can't be done with perfection. We can't do it. There will be eternal debts, debts we cannot pay or make right by ourselves. In my mind, it is only after I try my best to do what God has asked...and after I fail in some respect...that I thank God on my knees for Christ's wondrous gift of grace and love that bears me up.

I guess when I step back I see it like this:

1) God wants us to become like Him in attributes and character (I'm not talking about deification here, I'm talking about partaking of the divine nature, becoming better people and having purer love as God does);

2) God commands us to do certain things which--if done--help us grow to be more like Him;

3) By ourselves, we cannot do all the things that God asks us to do; we may obey, but it will ultimately be imperfect obedience

4) Through Christ's grace, we can expand our strength and capacities to the point where we can do what God asks us to do;

5) The only way to do the "works" God commands us to do is by turning to Him and asking with full intent of heart for Him to apply the grace of Christ to our undeserving souls;

6) Once grace is granted, the supplicant finds greater desire and ability to follow God's commandments, and as Maureen pointed out, wants to do them;

I don't know if that sheds any new light on my beliefs, or if it's more of the same. One difference I think is that I don't see myself being "saved" until Judgment Day when I am either granted a place at God's right hand, or consigned to dwell outside His presence. It is at that point that I am literally either saved or not saved from sin.

I do believe that during this life I can have assurance from God that if I died I would be "saved" or judged worthy through Christ of eternal glory at Judgment Day. I don't see salvation as something that happens "now," in this life.

I think that's one main difference between LDS and non-LDS views: non-LDS largely view salvation as a moment or event that someone experiences in this life and that continues into the next life; I think most LDS view salvation as something that can't fully be had until our personal encounter at Judgment Day. Hence, the desire to work and serve and grow as much as possible while we are blessed to live on this earth. Again, the Book of Revelations is explicit that we are judged by our works.

BUT...but...I'd add that only through God's grace or quickening spiritual strength can we do the things that will qualify us to dwell with Christ in his throne as he dwells with God in His throne (Rev. 3). No one will be able to say in that day, "I did it by myself...I worked extra hard to earn a place here." Everyone who is blessed to dwell with God eternally will say, "I did my best, Christ did the rest."

NOTE: I've really enjoyed and been impressed by Maureen, PC and Rosie's posts thus far. Thanks guys for your thoughtful insights and patience with my various attempts to articulate my beliefs clearly.

[Dr T]

I agree CK, there were a lot of good explainations on this thread. I liked most of your last post but stopped at "I did my best and Christ did the rest." What I've come to see as "Christ did it all" is were we are parting ways. If you go through life, and do not know if you will be saved "unless you did all you could do" my question has to be "Who's work really mattered?" Yours or Jesus'? If you say "both" (that gives too much to the creature and not the creator-and I'm sure that is a whole other topic. Something that I need to think about too) then I'd have to say that it seems to deminish Jesus' work (as in his life, death and ressurection is not strong enough to cover all of our failings). Do I have a role in behavior-yes-is it for my own salvation? I want to say "no" but like I said-I have to think on that some more. Thanks for your thoughts.

[CrimsonKairos]

If you go through life, and do not know if you will be saved "unless you did all you could do" my question has to be "Who's work really mattered?" Yours or Jesus'?

Both do matter. What we "do" compared to what Jesus "did" is like comparing a candle flame to a forest fire the size of Asia. Does that mean our "works" aren't necessary? Of course not. I see salvation as a three-step process (for the purpose of this discussion):

First: We are justified by grace -- If we repent, we are declared innocent, or not guilty of sin, through Christ's atoning blood; we could never effect this return to innocence through any effort of our own; the best state we could hope for on our own would be guilty but forgiven;

Second: We are judged by works -- In this state of innocence, our actions are reviewed; if we've covenanted with God and done our best to keep our covenants (which includes loving as He loves), we are declared worthy of being made perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect (I don't mean deification, I mean becoming perfect in our character, desires, behavior, nature...);

Third: We are sanctified by grace -- In this condition of having qualified for perfection, Christ's atoning blood sanctifies or perfects us, quickens us until we achieve perfection as defined above, i.e. having our nature and character refined until they mirror God and Christ's character/attributes.

So I guess I see repentance leading to justification; but then it is what we have done (and why we have done it) that determines whether we go on to sanctification/perfection. I believe we are justified and sanctified by grace, hands down; we don't and can't do anything to bring about our justification or sanctification. What we can do is qualify for justification (through repentance), and qualify for sanctification (through our best efforts in serving God and mankind). Through this process, our efforts are to Christ's cleansing and quickening grace, what a candle flame is to a continent-sized forest fire.

I'd like clarification from everyone on something.

Rev. 20:12-13 says we will be judged by our works. What do you all think these "works" are? I'm not asking how they interact with grace, or agency, etc... I'm specifically asking what you think the "works" are that we're judged by?

[rosie321]

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If you go through life, and do not know if you will be saved "unless you did all you could do" my question has to be "Who's work really mattered?" Yours or Jesus'?

Both do matter. What we "do" compared to what Jesus "did" is like comparing a candle flame to a forest fire the size of Asia. Does that mean our "works" aren't necessary? Of course not. I guess I need clarification from everyone.

Rev. 19:12-13 says we will be judged by our works. What do you all think these "works" are? I'm not asking how they interact with grace, or agency, etc... I'm specifically asking what you think the "works" are that we're judged by?

Doesn't the Bible say our works are like filthy rags? We don't even begin to measure up.

but stopped at "I did my best and Christ did the rest." What I've come to see as "Christ did it all" is were we are parting ways. If you go through life, and do not know if you will be saved "unless you did all you could do" my question has to be "Who's work really mattered?" Yours or Jesus'? If you say "both" (that gives too much to the creature and not the creator-and I'm sure that is a whole other topic. Something that I need to think about too) then I'd have to say that it seems to deminish Jesus' work (as in his life, death and ressurection is not strong enough to cover all of our failings). Do I have a role in behavior-yes-is it for my own salvation?

That is a beautiful thing from God. It is always God's work that we are doing. When Christ came to earth the only work that mattered was that of His Father (John 14-15 for ex) . He always gave the credit back to God. Even though Christ was the Savior of the world he had to fulfill His part in the plan. He was given the support He needed to accomplish it.

You have God giving you a chance to do what you can. You're gonna fall which will make you understand both His Grace and Will much better. It keeps us learning and growing and understanding and becoming more like Him. YOu see how much of a master teacher that God is. It is much more amazing then our mortal minds can fully comprehend. We wind up doing the will of God and it is His work that we are always doing. We will not fully understand the Will of God unless we do it.

Hope that makes sense

Doesn't the Bible say our works are like filthy rags? We don't even begin to measure up.

Sorry something I wrote that got mixed into Crimsons

[Dr T]

Great question CK. That is why I said that I have to think more on what I'm saying. My initial thought that "if there is a sin that Jesus cannot cover (through his sacrifice) then his work is not sufficient" in my mind. I know there are some people that believe in limited atonement but I have not really looked into this concept. For me the question would be, "How powerful was Jesus' saving grace?" and "are there any limits to what Jesus covers?"

[CrimsonKairos]

Exceptions like blasphemy against the Holy Ghost aside, I think there's only one limit on Christ's atonement. That limitation is found in whether we repent or not.

[Ray]

I've read a lot of good thoughts from a lot of people here concerning what they believe on this topic.

I'd like to share, in my words, what I truly believe and ask what you really think of my thoughts:

Our salvation is a gift that comes from God's grace, alone. There is nothing we can do to earn it.

To receive our salvation we just need to accept it. That is "all we can do" to be saved.

Our salvation from God makes us "at one" with God. When we receive it, our will then becomes God's will.

But we still have our agency... our own free will to choose. To stay "saved" we must stay "one" with God.

If we do anything that is contrary to God's will, we are then no longer "at one" with God.

So, in summary, to be saved, we just accept God's free gift, at which point we are "at one" with God. And if we do anything that is contrary to God's will, we are then no longer "at one" with God.

Some illustrations:

If at that point we are saved, but not baptized in water, we would later be baptized in water. We would simply need to know that is God's will for us, and then choose to stay "at one' with God..

If we're not sealed in a temple to our spouse for eternity, we would later receive that ordinance. We would simply need to know that is God's will for us, and then choose to stay "at one" with God.

And if we've received God's free gift, and are "at one" with God, it would be easy to know what is God's will, because our will would be God's will and we'd know what God's will was just like how we know what our own will is.

If we don't know God's will, then we're not "one" with God, so we'd then need to know what God's will is.

Right?

Do you know how to know what is God's will for you?

Do you know how to know what your will is?

Do you know how you knew what was God's will when you knew it?

Do you know how you can know again?

If you've never known God, then you and God are not "one", so no wonder you don't know what God's will is.

If you really want to know what God's will is for you, I say, ask God and keep asking until God tells you.

Can you imagine another way to know God's will for you than to know you and God are both "one"?

So what do you think of my thoughts at this point? Do you think I am "at one" with God?

If you do I thiink you'll think that what I've said is God's will. If you don't, then I think you really won't.

[Ray]

And btw, I didn't mention "Repentance", which is how we become "at one", again... after knowing what we can do to be "at one" in the first place. If you don't know, you just need to accept it.

[Maureen]

First: We are justified by grace

Second: We are judged by works...

Third: We are sanctified by grace...

IMO, I would put these in a different order:

First: We are justified by grace

Second: We are sanctified by the HS

Third: We are judged by works

I'd like clarification from everyone on something.

Rev. 20:12-13 says we will be judged by our works. What do you all think these "works" are? I'm not asking how they interact with grace, or agency, etc... I'm specifically asking what you think the "works" are that we're judged by?

Not too familiar scripturally speaking regarding the actual "judgement". But from what I understand the judgement of "works" in the scripture above is regarding the "unbelievers" works. The giving of rewards or taking away of rewards for the" believer" is I believe a different judgement, separate from what Rev 20 (above) is referring to.

M.

[rosie321]

[[

quote]I'd like clarification from everyone on something.

Rev. 20:12-13 says we will be judged by our works. What do you all think these "works" are? I'm not asking how they interact with grace, or agency, etc... I'm specifically asking what you think the "works" are that we're judged by?

Not too familiar scripturally speaking regarding the actual "judgement". But from what I understand the judgement of "works" in the scripture above is regarding the "unbelievers" works. The giving of rewards or taking away of rewards for the" believer" is I believe a different judgement, separate from what Rev 20 (above) is referring to.

Works we should be doing?

Some things are so ingrained into us that we just know .

Others must be learned along the way (after all this is a time of learning)

The spirit reveals the works to us we need to do.

We learn by scriptures and through patterns.

I think everyone notices basic patterns in life that cross all religious understandings.

Do you ignore the law of the harvest?

We will be judged ultimately by how much love we have or not in our hearts. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor. What you did with what you had or not.

"By whatever judgement you judge you will be judged."

If you have made no point of following Christ or hearing Him (doing right things) then will be judged according to the flesh. If made a point of following God will be judged according to that measure. for example there are people in the church who have done everything but will be surprised (matthew 25 I believe)

The parable of the 10 talents shows that if you have only one and you lose it you will still be blessed. But if you have one and do nothing with it you are in trouble. Its hard to imagine being in the "God tree" having had it revealed to you to do something and then do nothing. But we are told that even in the tree of God there will be shaking. The bad will be removed. The sheep and the goat effect. Only the very elect will survive the shaking that will occur in the Latterdays.

All I know is thankfully I am not the judge. So I will do what I should do the best of my ability and trust in grace to carry me through the lack thereof. Focusing on the judgement so much keeps me from doing.

[Ray]

Rev. 20:12-13 says we will be judged by our works. What do you all think these "works" are? I'm not asking how they interact with grace, or agency, etc... I'm specifically asking what you think the "works" are that we're judged by?

Whether or not we:

Love God... actually giving our love (back) to God in some way.

Love our neighbor... actually loving the people all around us.

Honor our parents.

Visit widows... being kind to them.

Visit orphans... being kind to them too.

Deal justly with our neighbors... doing kind things for them.

Feed the hungry... Cloth the naked... Provide shelter for the destitute...

... or give support to organizations that do.

There are many, many, good things we can do with God's love and His help to help the others who live around us.

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

[rosie321]

Other important work is

humbleness. "are we not all beggars"

destruction of pride and superiority. We are all in this together. LDS believe all brothers and sisters.

Where is our heart and mind? We can do all the good deeds but if we don't have our mind set on the higher things of God. Sometimes people measure good deeds by what they get out of it or give. Not on serving God

Operating within our means "do not run faster than ye have strenth" (BoM) but run that ye may finish the race that is set before you. as Paul says in the NT.

[Dr T]

Titus 3:5-3:7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It goes on to talk about good works being profitable for man, which makes sense but not for gaining the grace of salvation.

[Ray]

Titus 3:5-3:7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It goes on to talk about good works being profitable for man, which makes sense but not for gaining the grace of salvation.

Or in other words, we didn't and can't and will never do anything to earn the grace of God.

The grace was that God gave us the gift... the atonement.

And the atonement applies, automatically. He already gave it to us.

But if we walk away from it... turn away... we won't ever, ever receive it.

Unless we turn (back) to Him and receive what is waiting for us.

An analogy.

Say God gave you a billion dollars. You didn't have to do anything to receive it.

God just gave it to you. It's yours. God put it all in your name.

But for you to receive that money, you have to go through God to get it.

If you walk away from God... forever... then you'll never get it.

Right now, the money is waiting. You still have some more time to claim it.

But if you wait too long, you won't get it. There's a time limit on it.

And only God knows how long God gave you. I can't speculate about that.

But I can tell you I got mine, and that you don't seem to be using yours.

If you are, then why aren't you buying what I know to be good?

:)