Help With My Thought of the 3-Degrees

[slamjet]

... or just tell me I'm way off the mark.

I've had a chance to talk gospel with my 10 year old son and try to get out of his head some heretical ideas from other folks (yea, members, go figure). So he had some pretty off the mark ideas about heaven and hell to the point he was convinced that hell is where he's going. So I opened my big mouth and said "there's no such thing as hell." You could imagine the look I got from him. So to give you an idea of how I explained myself, I insert a bit of what I wrote in my journal:

"God is a God of love, not of punishment so it's not a matter of we're going to being punished for what we did or did not do, but a matter of that God loving us so much, that he wants us to be happy and comfortable so he created three kingdoms and outer darkness so that His children will be able to choose where they would be the most comfortable spending eternity." I further explained that the time of judgment is not going to be us giving him a list of things we did right, but what our ultimate attitude will be. I went on, "I can see us at the judgment bar, where God and Christ are asking us to come to Him and some people not wanting to go because the attitude they gained on earth and that followed them into the spirit world would make them really uncomfortable being in the presence of God. So that's why there is a Celestial kingdom, where those who have lived and strived to do their best and gain a good attitude will be happy being. Then the Terrestrial, where those who are not comfortable being in the presence of God, but are comfortable in the presence of Christ will live. Then there will be the Telestial kingdom where those who are only comfortable being in the presence of the Holy Ghost will live. There is also outer darkness for those who have lived in such a way that no glory would make them happy. Those are the ones who will be miserable forever."

Now I don't have a bunch of scriptural nor conference material to back this up, but it seems to fit in with the doctrine of God being a God of pure love.

Am I totally off the mark and am I missing something? Thoughts?

[applepansy]

No you're not.

More to come.......

January 18, 2009: I hadn't been member (here at lds.net) very long and Justice posted this: The Plan of Salvation

Read his post. Do it! Then do it with your son. A 10yo isn't too young to understand the scriptures or the simplicity of the Plan of Salvation and the Gospel.

After doing this exercise by myself, with my husband and with a family home evening group I had a much better understanding of the Plan. I continued to study and read everything I could find, especially scriptures. Amazingly, several months later I was asked to speak in Sacrament meeting about what? The Plan of Salvation, of course! At least I was sort of prepared. What I wasn't prepared was for the Spirit to speak through me and that I said something that brought everyone's heads up, including the Stake President. The only people who weren't surprised by what came out of my mouth were the people from the family home evening group and my husband.

Truly this is a fun and enjoyable exercise. :) Enjoy!

One other thought: Most Christian faiths believe in Heaven and Hell. I think the equivalent in LDS Doctrine in the Spirit World and Spirit Prison prior to judgement. That's where they stop and get things all twisted around. Even some members get this idea twisted around.

Edited July 21, 2012 by applepansy

[Anddenex]

... or just tell me I'm way off the mark.

I've had a chance to talk gospel with my 10 year old son and try to get out of his head some heretical ideas from other folks (yea, members, go figure). So he had some pretty off the mark ideas about heaven and hell to the point he was convinced that hell is where he's going. So I opened my big mouth and said "there's no such thing as hell."

First, I don't think it wise to say to a child "there's no such thing as hell" when we know there is such a place. However, unless it is used as "shock value" to springboard into another discussion, which emphasizes there is a hell and what it actually is.

(This reminds me of a mother, when her daughter saw of show of a carnivore dinosaur eating a herbivore, and the daughter asked the mother what they were doing, the mother's reply, "Kissing". I feel really sorry for this daughters first boyfriend whom she kisses)

I agree with Applepansy and from my understanding "hell" is spirit prison. However, even in the other degrees of glory, although they are saved to one of these degrees, there will be a sense of "hell" there because these people will be damned, in other words, they will not be able to fully progress and obtain the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom. Their progression will be halted.

Second, I am assuming you asked him why he decided he was going to hell? In order to overcome a false teaching it is important to understand the root of why he felt was going to hell. This could spring board into a nice conversation about repentance, and linking it to John 3: 16, and the other scripture where the Lord says, "I came not into the world to condemn the world, but to save it." This then emphasizes to the child that though we make mistakes the Lord provided a way through Jesus Christ to be saved, and not go to hell, or any of the other degrees of glory.

Third, God is definitely a God of love, however He is also a God of punishment as well. He punished the Nephites, He punished the children of Israel, and He punished the Lamanites for their wickedness also.

I would then use D&C 95: 1 - 2, and letting the child know that sometimes God's punishment is through the avenue of chastening us, and the Lord chastens whom He loves.

In connection with this, I would also bring him back to Jesus Christ with your statement of when we are standing before God and Christ, and use D&C 45: 3-5. These verse are my favorite verses when it comes to the tender mercies of our Lord, and how, if we have followed him, believed in him, repenting of our sins, he wil "plead" our cause before our Heavenly Father. What a wonderful doctrine.

Fourth, the explanation from your children regarding those who will not be comfortable in the presence of God will be assigned to the Telestial kingdom, and thus correct explanation down to outer darkness.

Fifth, make sure after you teach your son, or in this case have taught your son, that you ask questions to verify that he understood what you said.

Example, my oldest son, after reading scriptures asked his mother, "What is adultery?" Mind you he was five years old at this time. Kristi, my wife, answered him and told me about her answer. I asked her if she asked clarifying questions to make sure he understood it. She said she did not.

When I arrived home from work, I asked my oldest son, "How would you describe adultery." His reply, "It is when a mother and father receive a baby from another person." If you read closely, one can see how this might be adultery (a father receives a baby with another woman besides his mother), however I recognized real quick that he was describin adoption. So I explained to him, no that was adoption, and then reiterated his mother's teachings, and then asked clarifying questions. If his answer still wasn't correct, I taught him again, and then asked again, and taught and asked until he finally could relay back to me what adultery was.

Note: I kept the conversation about adultery G-rated. He was five.

These are my thoughts. Unfortunately, a child should never feel like he/she is going to "hell" after a church class, unless of course the child is making decisions which will land him/her there. However, I don't know many 10 year olds who are raised in the church, which would die and have to worry about spirit prison.

Have a wonderful day Slamjet.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Anddenex

[Vort]

LDS doctrine does not describe "hell" in the same way traditional Christianity does. In the LDS understanding, "hell" is more of a spiritual state, as Alma (younger) described suffering "eternal torment" and "everlasting burnings". In my opinion, 2 Nephi 9:19 describes hell as a state of indescribable suffering from which God delivers his Saints:

For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Hell is indeed real, but not in the form preached by Dante and most Christians as a place of physical torment reserved as a never-ending punishment for the sinner and the unbeliever. This is a plain misunderstanding of Jesus' teachings on the subject, and another example of why modern revelation and scripture is so useful.

If I were you, I would correct my earlier misstatements with my son and tell him that hell is real, but is not what a lot of people say it is. I would use this as a springboard to further and more in-depth discussion of doctrine and scripture.

[bytebear]

Dante really is the biggest influence on what traditional hell is.

[tubaloth]

I really don't think you are off the mark really at all. Hell is more of an idea then an actually place.

Outer Darkness (and maybe even Telestial Kingdom) could feel like Hell. I guess this is what I would be explaining to a 10 year old.

You use the word "attitude", which I can kind of see why you would use that word. I would probably use more of a word like feeling, or comfort level. attitude is part of it. I think some of will want the higher kingdom, but we won't fill comfortable there.

D&C 88

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

[Bensalem]

... or just tell me I'm way off the mark.

I've had a chance to talk gospel with my 10 year old son and try to get out of his head some heretical ideas from other folks (yea, members, go figure). So he had some pretty off the mark ideas about heaven and hell to the point he was convinced that hell is where he's going. So I opened my big mouth and said "there's no such thing as hell." You could imagine the look I got from him. So to give you an idea of how I explained myself, I insert a bit of what I wrote in my journal:

"God is a God of love, not of punishment so it's not a matter of we're going to being punished for what we did or did not do, but a matter of that God loving us so much, that he wants us to be happy and comfortable so he created three kingdoms and outer darkness so that His children will be able to choose where they would be the most comfortable spending eternity." I further explained that the time of judgment is not going to be us giving him a list of things we did right, but what our ultimate attitude will be. I went on, "I can see us at the judgment bar, where God and Christ are asking us to come to Him and some people not wanting to go because the attitude they gained on earth and that followed them into the spirit world would make them really uncomfortable being in the presence of God. So that's why there is a Celestial kingdom, where those who have lived and strived to do their best and gain a good attitude will be happy being. Then the Terrestrial, where those who are not comfortable being in the presence of God, but are comfortable in the presence of Christ will live. Then there will be the Telestial kingdom where those who are only comfortable being in the presence of the Holy Ghost will live. There is also outer darkness for those who have lived in such a way that no glory would make them happy. Those are the ones who will be miserable forever."

Now I don't have a bunch of scriptural nor conference material to back this up, but it seems to fit in with the doctrine of God being a God of pure love.

Am I totally off the mark and am I missing something? Thoughts?

I do have some problems with this presentation. Others have already addressed the reality of 'hell', so I will move on.

God may be "all loving" but He is not "all forgiving" or "all merciful" in the absence of "true Justice". God demonstrated his love with the gift of his son, and Christ demonstrated his love for us with the gift of the Atonement, but we still have to be obedient in faith.

For example, Christ did not forgive or heal all of Judah in his day. He forgave and healed only those whose faith allowed them to come to him.

Christ's love (the Atonement) only overcomes God's demand for justice if we take advantage of the Atonement by coming unto Christ.

Also, there seems a lack of accountability in your presentation. The three kingdoms are not decided upon by the individual. A person attains a certain glory based not only on their faith but their progression of faith. We will be judged of our deeds; He is a God of punishment and of blessing. We earn both.

[grauchy123]

From the screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis

On the other side of the room another [demon] says, “I’ve got the plan. I’ll tell ‘em there’s no hell.”

Even though later in the debate the Devil went with "I'll just tell 'em there's no hurry", this quote came to mind when I read the OP.

[Bini]

Also, there seems a lack of accountability in your presentation. The three kingdoms are not decided upon by the individual. A person attains a certain glory based not only on their faith but their progression of faith. We will be judged of our deeds; He is a God of punishment and of blessing. We earn both.

I think that was what Slam was getting at, basically. We decide which kingdoms we go to, per our choices and actions.

[Bensalem]

I think that was what Slam was getting at, basically. We decide which kingdoms we go to, per our choices and actions.

'slamjet' said, "God is a God of love, not of punishment so it's not a matter of we're going to (be) punished for what we did or did not do..."

I can't abide by such a statement. We do not choose which kingdom we end up in. God must still judge our heart and our deeds. If we are judged worthy, He blesses us by placing us in the appropriate kingdom (glory).

Edited July 25, 2012 by Bensalem

[Bini]

I can't abide by such a statement. We do not choose which kingdom we end up in. God must still judge our heart and our deeds. If we are judged worthy, He blessing us by placing us in the appropriate kingdom (glory).

I agree with this statement.

[Windseeker]

From the screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis

On the other side of the room another [demon] says, “I’ve got the plan. I’ll tell ‘em there’s no hell.”

.

This reminded me of the scripture in Nephi describing the tactics that Satan uses. President Monson quoted it in his talk on choice.

The Three Rs of Choice - general-conference

Although in our journey we will encounter forks and turnings in the road, we simply cannot afford the luxury of a detour from which we may never return. Lucifer, that clever pied piper, plays his lilting melody and attracts the unsuspecting away from the safety of their chosen pathway, away from the counsel of loving parents, away from the security of God’s teachings. He seeks not just the so-called refuse of humanity; he seeks all of us, including the very elect of God. King David listened, wavered, and then followed and fell. So did Cain in an earlier era and Judas Iscariot in a later one. Lucifer’s methods are cunning; his victims, numerous.

We read of him in 2 Nephi: “Others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security.” “Others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell … until he grasps them with his awful chains.” “And thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.”

When faced with significant choices, how do we decide? Do we succumb to the promise of momentary pleasure? To our urges and passions? To the pressure of our peers?

Let us not find ourselves as indecisive as is Alice in Lewis Carroll’s classic Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. You will remember that she comes to a crossroads with two paths before her, each stretching onward but in opposite directions. She is confronted by the Cheshire cat, of whom Alice asks, “Which path shall I follow?”

The cat answers, “That depends where you want to go. If you do not know where you want to go, it doesn’t matter which path you take.”

Unlike Alice, we all know where we want to go, and it does matter which way we go, for by choosing our path, we choose our destination.

I do believe that Hell exists but in the end it's how the OP described. I think the quote from the Chesire Cat is appropriate. So in a big way it comes down to where do you want to go?

Edited July 25, 2012 by Windseeker

[skippy740]

This thread will help you back up your thoughts with scripture:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/47319-help-me-understand-d-c-19-a.html

[Bensalem]

I agree with this statement.

Thanks for understanding.

PS - Could you please correct my spelling error (blesses vs blessing). I edited it in the original.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Bensalem

[Seminarysnoozer]

... or just tell me I'm way off the mark.

I've had a chance to talk gospel with my 10 year old son and try to get out of his head some heretical ideas from other folks (yea, members, go figure). So he had some pretty off the mark ideas about heaven and hell to the point he was convinced that hell is where he's going. So I opened my big mouth and said "there's no such thing as hell." You could imagine the look I got from him. So to give you an idea of how I explained myself, I insert a bit of what I wrote in my journal:

Now I don't have a bunch of scriptural nor conference material to back this up, but it seems to fit in with the doctrine of God being a God of pure love.

Am I totally off the mark and am I missing something? Thoughts?

I think there is something more than attitude, there is also a bit of capacity that has to be revealed when action is required as well to show who we really are. All who passed the first estate test did so with the right attitude. If all that was required was good deeds and a good attitude then there would be no reason for a second estate test. The second estate test is to stratify the degree to which we have the right attitude (only a few will be thrown out as not really having any degree of the right attitude - sons of perdition). The second estate test is the one in which we can reveal that we will actually do the thing we expressed the right attitude about during the first estate, while under the influence of evil opportunity. We have to show some capacity to act on our own without having to be told or prompted, to be anxiously engaged in a good cause, thus revealing what is really in our heart and to what degree.

This is how I have taught that to my kids. I suggest it is like going to boot camp first (I have several military family members so they know what that is). In boot camp all the soldiers take oaths of allegiance and by there level of obedience prove how valiant they are before going out to the battle field. Some even drop out of boot camp, thinking the program too vigorous and demanding. Those that passed boot camp learned how to be valiant there and they all say 'if my fellow soldier fell on the battle field I would risk my own life to go and save him'. But, when it comes to the actual test of being valiant and loyal, in the heat of the battle, there are only certain individuals who would actually go and sacrifice or risk their own well being for that of another. The first estate is like the boot camp, verbal loyalty test. The second estate is the chance to show that one would actually be as valiant as they said they would.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Seminarysnoozer