Utah Welfare now drug testing

[Vort]

Sure, but the thing is that we don't even know if this program even works at all yet. Arguments for welfare drug testing often intrinsically assume that it works, but I don't think we can argue like that until we can prove it. If welfare drug testing is shown to work I'd be all for it, but until then it all seems like we're going to throw a bunch of money at an unproven system and hope it works.

I have to agree with LW. I'm all for kicking the freeloaders off the dole, but it's not too much to ask for real evidence that the program would work before instituting it statewide. Doing a pilot of some sort would answer those questions; at the least, there should first be a rigorous financial analysis done that clearly indicates positive results.

[Backroads]

Yes, it would only be fair to test the finanicial means of the system. But if were not an unreasonable amount more, I'd rather have money going to testing people than paying for their drugs.

[NightSG]

If something like this could work, it sounds ideal.

Something like that did work fairly well; remember government cheese?

[annewandering]

So you compare alcoholics and druggies with those who are really starving?

Congratulations on having a warped sense of what really matters to sustain life.

I have personally seen a lot more people eating out of garbage cans who needed help than I have seen abusers. I have no idea where you get the snarky idea that I have mentioned alcoholics and druggies at all. You are the one that knows a welfare abuser not me. I know, and have known a lot of people who lived in derelict vehicles who have scrounged to find anything to eat. I have known students at college who, in trying to get an education, sleep in the hills and eat out of dumpsters. I have known people to beg at rest stops for food. Yes I knew them not just saw them. I have known women who have prostituted themselves for food for their kids. I have known people who go out on bombing ranges to get sharpnel to sell for food and I have know some of them to come out of there in body bags.

They haunt me.

You might be, might be, interested in knowing that alcoholics and druggies are people as well. And they do need to eat. An vet alcoholic once stepped in to help my family eat when he came begging change from me. They are people and a LOT of them are on the streets because they did not and could not get the treatment they need/ed from the VA.

Dont go getting all righteous when you have no clue why they are where they are. Addicts starve too.

[annewandering]

Something like that did work fairly well; remember government cheese?

So you can sustain life on cheese? I guess so. Hardly a decent diet for a kid but hey he is poor so thats all he needs.

[Bini]

I did not get the impression that, Backroads, believed that alcoholics and druggies are anything less than people. How I interpreted her posts was: there are individuals with substance abuse that don't use their aide for necessities but to pursue their habit. I'm sure Backroads will clarify what exactly she meant, however.

Anyway, there are many stories to be told. Some that relate to what Backroads shares, and some that relate to what Anne shares. Not sure what the solution is but I 100% agree with Post #25 and Post #26.

[Backroads]

I have personally seen a lot more people eating out of garbage cans who needed help than I have seen abusers. I have no idea where you get the snarky idea that I have mentioned alcoholics and druggies at all. You are the one that knows a welfare abuser not me. I know, and have known a lot of people who lived in derelict vehicles who have scrounged to find anything to eat. I have known students at college who, in trying to get an education, sleep in the hills and eat out of dumpsters. I have known people to beg at rest stops for food. Yes I knew them not just saw them. I have known women who have prostituted themselves for food for their kids. I have known people who go out on bombing ranges to get sharpnel to sell for food and I have know some of them to come out of there in body bags.

They haunt me.

You might be, might be, interested in knowing that alcoholics and druggies are people as well. And they do need to eat. An vet alcoholic once stepped in to help my family eat when he came begging change from me. They are people and a LOT of them are on the streets because they did not and could not get the treatment they need/ed from the VA.

Dont go getting all righteous when you have no clue why they are where they are. Addicts starve too.

I apologize for being snarky.

But I refuse to believe that the government should pay for booze and drugs. These people may need help, but giving them money to pay for their destructive habits and doing nothing else helps NO ONE. So one can sit around feeling good about giving no more thought to starving people other than "I gave them money", or one can look at programs that will help them.

But don't you dare tell me that I should give people money to buy drugs and alcohol just because "they're people too". I'm not that naive to not be aware of that, but I do believe that alcoholism and drug addiction are not soley problems of society that people had no choice but to take upon themselves.

A proper system would not allow itself to be abused by people who, for whatever reason, put money toward drugs and alcohol before food.

You made the suggestion that it is impossible to abuse the welfare system when you replied to me with your also rather-snarky remark about people eating out of garbage cans. There is a difference between starvation and being unwilling to get the proper help to avoid spending money on things you don't need.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Backroads

[Misshalfway]

I think there is an argument to be made about the government becoming an "enabler" of drug/alcohol addiction. But I don't think this "tactic" is going to do anything to solve the problem.

[Windseeker]

I don't care who they drug test as long as they drug test the boy scouts.

[Backroads]

So you can sustain life on cheese? I guess so. Hardly a decent diet for a kid but hey he is poor so thats all he needs.

I don't think that's the point being made.

However, having the government distribute food to families rather than give them money does get around the problem of the money not being spent on the children's food.

I've worked in the public school system. Years ago the schools stopped helping families financially and focused on giving them and their children "stuff" like coats, shoes, etc. Because in a surprising amount of cases, the parents just blew the money.

[Misshalfway]

I think the welfare system has to take some responsibility for creating some of the abuses. It pretty much punishes you if you start to get on your feet. I think people learn to stay "needy."

[Backroads]

I think the welfare system has to take some responsibility for creating some of the abuses. It pretty much punishes you if you start to get on your feet. I think people learn to stay "needy."

It's really quite true. They make it hard for people to get back on their feet. Sometimes people get in the bind of "get a job" vs "lose government insurance".

[annewandering]

I apologize for being snarky.

But I refuse to believe that the government should pay for booze and drugs. These people may need help, but giving them money to pay for their destructive habits and doing nothing else helps NO ONE. So one can sit around feeling good about giving no more thought to starving people other than "I gave them money", or one can look at programs that will help them.

But don't you dare tell me that I should give people money to buy drugs and alcohol just because "they're people too". I'm not that naive to not be aware of that, but I do believe that alcoholism and drug addiction are not soley problems of society that people had no choice but to take upon themselves.

A proper system would not allow itself to be abused by people who, for whatever reason, put money toward drugs and alcohol before food.

You made the suggestion that it is impossible to abuse the welfare system when you replied to me with your also rather-snarky remark about people eating out of garbage cans. There is a difference between starvation and being unwilling to get the proper help to avoid spending money on things you don't need.

Backroads, there is no easy answer and I will never say to enable people to feed their addictions and I certainly never said that no one can abuse the system. It is possible.

It galls me that they need help, or needed help, at some point and it wasnt there. Even if they arent helpable at this point, they often have children who need help. Its one reason I like food stamps on cards. It is harder, not impossible, but harder, to convert that to cash.

Drug testing, as far as I can see from reading about how it has worked in other areas, just costs the taxpayers money. If a person is dishonest and cheats the system, what is to stop them from using tricks to avoid testing positive? You can buy kits to avoid getting caught on the internet not to mention ways to avoid bad results 'naturally'.

I was going to post some links but realized they would be against the tos. :) I am sure you can find some interesting results though.

Backroads, I am sorry I lost my temper. It is something that really does upset me. I have seen too much, sometimes, to not be emotional about the subject.

[Backroads]

It's all good. I reacted, too.

Hugs?

[Misshalfway]

I do have one other thought.....

How is welfare "abuse" that different than the rich business tycoons who use all the loop holes of the financial laws/policies/codes to avoid paying taxes?

If the government would run things like the welfare program and tithing, we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)

[Guest]

Backroads, there is no easy answer and I will never say to enable people to feed their addictions and I certainly never said that no one can abuse the system. It is possible.

It galls me that they need help, or needed help, at some point and it wasnt there. Even if they arent helpable at this point, they often have children who need help. Its one reason I like food stamps on cards. It is harder, not impossible, but harder, to convert that to cash.

Drug testing, as far as I can see from reading about how it has worked in other areas, just costs the taxpayers money. If a person is dishonest and cheats the system, what is to stop them from using tricks to avoid testing positive? You can buy kits to avoid getting caught on the internet not to mention ways to avoid bad results 'naturally'.

I was going to post some links but realized they would be against the tos. :) I am sure you can find some interesting results though.

Backroads, I am sorry I lost my temper. It is something that really does upset me. I have seen too much, sometimes, to not be emotional about the subject.

Anne, I know you think Florida drug testing requirements is just a money-making scheme for Rick Scott to funnel money into Solantic but I live in Florida and I don't agree with that assessment.

Be that as it may, in Florida, the law is written so that food stamps are not impacted by drug testing. The only thing that you're not going to qualify for is the cash disbursements. Children of adults who test positive on the drug test are going to continue to receive their cash disbursements but they will be funneled through a proxy who will have to test negative on the drug test.

Florida is a gateway state for drug traffickers. We also have a heavy meth problem. We already have a law that prevents drug traffickers and those convicted of drug posession from qualifying for government assistance within a certain period of time from being charged. It makes a lot of sense to take the next step and try to purge the drug problem through other means that the government has control over.

Rick Scott made his living off of private healthcare industry. If we're going to automatically point suspicion on his relationship with the healthcare industry when he signs laws that deal with healthcare, then you're basically saying that we can't elect a governor with a history of healthcare to solve healthcare issues in Florida.

I'm not familiar with the Utah law - I haven't really studied it. One thing I read from the linked article on this thread is that people testing positive on the drug test are not going to lose their benefits if they accept the offered treatment.

Edited August 3, 2012 by anatess

[NightSG]

However, having the government distribute food to families rather than give them money does get around the problem of the money not being spent on the children's food.

And there were other types of food. The cheese was just memorable because it was actually quite edible and had a shelf life that would put MREs to shame.

[annewandering]

I do like the offerering of treatment. In fact that might just make the whole deal worthwhile.

Smiles >>> backroad. :)

[Guest]

Smiles >>> backroad. :)

She wanted hugs!

[annewandering]

She wanted hugs!

yikes. did i ever post on here about my phobia of hugs? i was hoping she would accept a conciliatory honest smile. :) I know its crazy but its true and sincere.

[Guest]

yikes. did i ever post on here about my phobia of hugs? i was hoping she would accept a conciliatory honest smile. :) I know its crazy but its true and sincere.

How about you give me the smile and I'll hug her for you? :)

[MichaelPAGuy]

It is unconstitutional to ask people who are going to be receiving tax payer money to take a drug test? However, it is not unconstitutional to ask a person who is applying for a job and going to be working for a living to take a drug test? What is wrong with this logic?

[kapikui]

I do have one other thought.....

How is welfare "abuse" that different than the rich business tycoons who use all the loop holes of the financial laws/policies/codes to avoid paying taxes?

If the government would run things like the welfare program and tithing, we wouldn't be having this conversation. :)

The difference is that it's their money. They're doing everything they can to minimize the amount the government robs from them (and make no mistake, taxes are nothing short of robbery by the government). Welfare abusers are not working or producing anything. They are providing no jobs to others.

The "greedy" business owners want to make more money for themselves. If you are running a business, you don't make more money by playing Scrooge McDuck and putting it all in a money bin. You take all of it that you can and expand your business. You hire more people to do the work, and you pay them. They then turn around and spend that money, and enrich other "greedy" people who turn around and take that money and do the same thing.

[Guest]

I have to agree with LW. I'm all for kicking the freeloaders off the dole, but it's not too much to ask for real evidence that the program would work before instituting it statewide. Doing a pilot of some sort would answer those questions; at the least, there should first be a rigorous financial analysis done that clearly indicates positive results.

The State of Florida employ Systems Engineers. They do all the rigorous systems engineering and analysis for stuff like the impact of "jumbo-tron road signs" (no idea what they're really called) on everything - traffic alerts, hurricane evacuations, amber and silver alerts, etc. Same systems engineering process provided the analysis on the return-on-investment of the high speed rail. Dunno if they system engineered drug-testing but some pretty detailed numbers are out there so I'm leaning on the side that they did. Systems Engineers also do the analysis of project implementation plans - creating target milestones that when not met is going to blow the budget. And other stuff like that.

I think doing an actual pilot on drug-testing requirements is not going to give you much headway. You can't really just institute it on a small sample - say, a county - the drug addicts would just go apply at another county... This is where Systems Engineering models would be of great advantage.

Edited August 4, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

I think there is an argument to be made about the government becoming an "enabler" of drug/alcohol addiction. But I don't think this "tactic" is going to do anything to solve the problem.

No it's not going to be the "magic bullet" that solves the problem of drug abuse. But, it is one of the few avenues that a government actually has control over its citizens. So, why not utilize it to nip at the problem, especially if the cost is offset?