Tithing

[Latter Days Guy]

Was having a conversation with a friend the other day and mentioned that I was returning to the Church. He's not a member and he asked me about what the church believed etc. Well the conversation eventually got round to the tithe and offerings we give to the church. I told him that we are instructed to give 10% of our income to the church as well as our fast offerings, pointing out that this was the biblical norm. So the first question he asked me is what if you cannot afford to pay a full tithe, will God reject you? I said of course no God wouldn't reject you for this, but it did get me thinking. When you go for a temple recommend you are asked if you have kept the commandments, the Word of Wisdom etc, obviously this includes tithing. Would you get a recomend if you had not paid your full tithe but were paying what you could afford to pay? What happens at the meeting you have with the bishop when you come to give an account of your tithing and you say that you have not paid your full tithe but have given as much as you could afford? I know in an ideal world we all pay our tithes and offerings, but there are people on very low incomes who try their hardest to follow the commandments but who could find it hard to pay their full tithe, and who choose to put food on the table for their family and give what they can afford to. Just wondering if what I had said was true and what the churches position is on such a situation?

[Brother Dorsey]

Was having a conversation with a friend the other day and mentioned that I was returning to the Church. He's not a member and he asked me about what the church believed etc. Well the conversation eventually got round to the tithe and offerings we give to the church. I told him that we are instructed to give 10% of our income to the church as well as our fast offerings, pointing out that this was the biblical norm. So the first question he asked me is what if you cannot afford to pay a full tithe, will God reject you? I said of course no God wouldn't reject you for this, but it did get me thinking. When you go for a temple recommend you are asked if you have kept the commandments, the Word of Wisdom etc, obviously this includes tithing. Would you get a recomend if you had not paid your full tithe but were paying what you could afford to pay? What happens at the meeting you have with the bishop when you come to give an account of your tithing and you say that you have not paid your full tithe but have given as much as you could afford? I know in an ideal world we all pay our tithes and offerings, but there are people on very low incomes who try their hardest to follow the commandments but who could find it hard to pay their full tithe, and who choose to put food on the table for their family and give what they can afford to. Just wondering if what I had said was true and what the churches position is on such a situation?

Hi GB....I hope I can answer your question for you....first of all, yes, in the Temple recommend interview the Bishop will specifically ask if you pay a full and honest tithe....if you can't honestly say you do then it will be hard to receive a recommend at that time. But the Bishop will help you become worthy in any area you need counseling for. President Gordon B. Hinkley in a conference talk once said (Pay a full and honest tithe to the Lords kingdom.....pay your tithe first and if you are in need of food, etc. after you pay your tithe you are to go and see your Bishop because it is his responsibility to help you.) Not in those exact words....but it is true...the Lord wants you to be self sufficient....he also wants to open the windows of Heaven and pour out blessings upon you and your family for paying a full and honest tithe. I bare my testimony on this fact....it was extremely difficult at first to pay a full tithe...I had to juggle bills and set other aside....I had to go to the Bishop and ask for help and recieved food from the Bishops storehouse a couple of times....I was waiting to see if the Lord would keep his promise, just as I was ready give up....he did just that...the Heavens opened and the blessings came...too numerous to mention, some spiritual, some financial, many for my wife and children and many for me. I will always pay a full tithe no matter what because I know the Lord will bless me and take care of my family. This is say in the beloved name of our Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ...Amen

GB...trust the Lord, and test the Lord...he wants you to....have faith, talk to your Bishop and he will help....I guarantee it!

Here's just one of many tithing miracles I have found.....

Elder Lynn Robbins of the Seventy tells this story of a stake president from Panama.

As a young man recently returned from his mission, he found the girl he wanted to marry. They were happy, but very poor.

Then came a particularly difficult time when their food and money ran out. It was a Saturday, and the cupboard was literally bare. Rene felt distraught that his young wife was hungry. He decided he had no other choice than to use their tithing money and go purchase food.

As he was leaving the house, his wife stopped him and asked him where he was going. He told her he was going to buy food. She asked him where he got the money. He told her that it was the tithing money. She said, “That is the Lord’s money—you will not use that to buy food.” Her faith was stronger than his. He put the money back, and they went to bed hungry that night.

The next morning they had no breakfast, and they went to church fasting. Rene gave the tithing money to the bishop, but he was too proud to tell the bishop that they were in need.

After the meetings he and his wife left the chapel and started to walk home. They hadn’t gone very far when a new member called to them from his house. This man was a fisherman and told them he had more fish than he could use. He wrapped five little fish in a newspaper for them, and they thanked him. As they continued to walk home, they were stopped by another member who gave them tortillas; then someone else stopped them and gave them rice; another member saw them and gave them beans.

When they arrived home, they had enough food for two weeks. They were even more surprised when they unwrapped the package of fish and found two very large fish and not the five smaller ones they thought they had seen. They cut the fish in portions and stored it in their neighbor’s freezer.

They have repeatedly testified that never since then have they gone hungry.

Good luck my friend....

[shanstress70]

Lets say a couple has filed bankrupcy. Are they still expected to pay a full tithe in order to get a TR, even though they are not paying their creditors?

[Ray]

Are you asking if you should pay the Lord before you pay other creditors?

I would say, Yes.

What would you say?

And btw, keep in mind the Lord only asks for 10%.

You'd still have 90% to pay other creditors... and you would eventually be paid up in full.

[begood2]

In my ward I know of a couple that went to the Bishop with financial difficulties and explained that because of their creditors, that they were unable to pay a full tithe without having to file for bankrupcy and he told them that because of their situation....that they were still paying an honest tithe and he gave them a Temple recommend.

[Gwen]

you can still receive a temple recomend if you are not paying your tithing, however, it must be aproved first. at least that is my understanding. you should pay your tithes, if you are in a financial situation in which you can not then go to the bishop imeadiatly. he will probalby go through some information that is provided for welfare needs at which time he will advise you to pay your tithing and he will provide food (or whatever) or he will advise you to not tithe. you can not just stop and then wait a year till tithing settlement and say i didn't cause and expect to hold a temple recomend. this in not a case of better to ask forgiveness than permission. ask permission first and let the lord's appointed representitives help you make the decision. then even if it is the wrong one you will be blessed and the bishop will have to answer to the lord.

that's my understanding of it anyway.

[Ray]

In my ward I know of a couple that went to the Bishop with financial difficulties and explained that because of their creditors, that they were unable to pay a full tithe without having to file for bankrupcy and he told them that because of their situation....that they were still paying an honest tithe and he gave them a Temple recommend.

That's one reason it is good to talk to our bishops... our own bishops... when we want to know what our status is in this Church.

Only my bishop can give me my temple recommend... and what other bishops think really doesn't matter.

And, of course, my stake president can overrule my bishop's judgment... just as my Lord can overrule all of them... but our Lord does work through His appointed representatives, so what they think is really all that really matters.

:)

[Guest Monica]

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Tithing is for the purpose of having funds and goods available for those in need. When you tithe, miraculously, God provides more for you from the 90% you get to keep. Some people tithe by having a separate bank account, cookie jar, or other hiding place where the funds are in safe keeping for needs that do arise for other people.

[rosie321]

[

i]Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

I think its important to pay tithing 1st (or at least have the desires too since sometimes for example the technologies of this electronic age of payments doesn't always make it feasible) But we should be thinking of it as our priority because it is the place where God should be in our lives. How can we say that we have faith and trust him if we don't want to put the will of God before all else?

My husband pointed out to me his belief. That part of Cains troubles started because he did not give to God his first fruits and that is most likely at least part of the reason why God rejected Cains sacrifice and not Abels. Reading Genesis 4 it does make sense.

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

This being said I think we need to take tithing to the next step and make it a priority.

I think it is easily possible to let sin enter in when we don't put God first. God knows our sincerity in this matter and is not mocked. I truly believe that the individual circumstances in the end will be properly considered. If we are complaining or doubtful that we cannot meet these requirements then maybe we don't have enough faith. Once again though that is ultimately between an individual and God. One who doesn't have knowledge of tithing will not be held to the same accountability as one who does not.

[rosie321]

One who doesn't have knowledge of tithing will not be held to the same accountability as one who does not.

G-B I do think that in cases such as ours where we have non member family members we have to be careful and respectful of others beliefs in this matter. For example, I don't expect my spouse to tithe to a church he doesn't believe in, but I would encourage him to do so in a cause or place he felt was doing good. To give back to God some of what he has been given. I have to be careful not to step on his agency and avoid all appearances of self righteousness. I do make it clear that this is what I am doing and why and ask for the respect to do so.

Hope that makes sense and helps.

[shanstress70]

If we are complaining or doubtful that we cannot meet these requirements then maybe we don't have enough faith.

Just curious what specific requirements you are speaking of.

[rosie321]

If we are complaining or doubtful that we cannot meet these requirements then maybe we don't have enough faith.

Just curious what specific requirements you are speaking of.

Basically, it is made clear that the God who has given us everything has asked us to do certain things. In this particular instance the thing that God asks is to be obedient to the law of tithing. We are expected to do so as set forth in Mal 3:8, as well as other places scripturally. Malachi is an infamous one that lets people see the curses for not doing so and the serousness with which God makes this request. He doesn't give a list of exceptions anywhere to the policy. Only people themselves do.

To me, it shows a lack of faith on the part of a person who refuses to do what the Lord asks or questions their need to listen and obey. It also robs them of potential blessings. God has said both in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, allbeit in different words, that He giveth no commandment save he prepare a way whereby men may accomplish the thing. Isn't the person who feels they can't obey for some reason showing a lack of faith in that promise? How can they expect to reap the blessings for their disobedience?

I understand all too well the difficulties and challenges that come from paying a tithe. But I've also seen the blessings. Maybe in the shortterm it may make things uncomfortable but by commiting yourself to do something the Lord has asked can only cause longterm benefits as reprioritizations are made. Or maybe humbling of going to your bishop and asking for help for a time maybe in some of the other areas of your life. Food , shelter etc. While I know in our minds it makes sense to pay our bills 1st. We are placing those bills ahead of our relationship and trust in God. Thus breaking one the the 10 commandments. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. In a sense we are placing our bills above our fear of the Lord. You are also breaking another commandment, thou shalt not steal.

Thankfully as I pay the tithe I find that the bills are not a worry as I thought. Something always helps to get me through and my faith is strengthened.

For people who spend undo time worrying about if they should fit into the category of paying the tithe are not going to be able to accomplish this thing and will be breaking many of Gods commandments too in the process.

We are asked to obey Gods command. Maybe requirement sounds like to hard of a word? But boiled down obedience to God's command is required. Any shortcomings are covered by grace but as other threads have discussed more fully. Do we really have the grace covering us if we are unwilling to obey Gods commands?

Hope that helps clarify what I meant.

[shanstress70]

Yes it does... thanks.

[Ray]

If we are complaining or doubtful that we cannot meet these requirements then maybe we don't have enough faith.

A valid point. And how do we know we need some more faith?

Just curious what specific requirements you are speaking of.

Basically, it is made clear that the God who has given us everything has asked us to do certain things.

Made clear to who?

I think it's important for each one of us to realize that not everybody has the same faith (or assurance) from God, and that God doesn't expect us to do what other people did unless God assures us, specifically.

For instance, I do know God was speaking through Malachi to reveal God's will to those people in Malachi's life time... but it wouldn't necessarily follow that I would also know that God wanted me to pay tithing with my money in my life time.

And how would I ever come to know that?

By receiving faith from God, for myself.

Just because God told some people doesn't mean God told me... even if God was speaking through prophets... and I shouldn't assume I should go and do what other people did just because that's what they knew they should do.

We need our own faith to know what God wants from each of us, and without that we don't know what God wants.

But since I know God wants me to pay tithing with my money, then, of course, that's something I should now do.

[Fiannan]

Lets say a couple has filed bankrupcy. Are they still expected to pay a full tithe in order to get a TR, even though they are not paying their creditors?

Actually, some courts have banned LDS people from paying tithing if they owe their creditors.

Also, in part member families often a wife or husband who is not a member will prohibit the member spouse from paying tithing. That person can still get a recommend.

One thing that has troubled me is the gross or net payment thing. I know in Europe taxes are so high that members only pay on what they actually get after taxes generally. I think it's up to the member in these situations.

[prisonchaplain]

Are you asking if you should pay the Lord before you pay other creditors? I would say, Yes. What would you say? And btw, keep in mind the Lord only asks for 10%. You'd still have 90% to pay other creditors... and you would eventually be paid up in full.

I understand this point. However, I believe there's been a recent court case in which a church was ordered to return the tithes given by a member who was in bankruptcy, because the prior creditors had first dibbs.

IMHO churches would do well to quickly comply with such rulings. I'm as strong a tither as any, but if we incur 'secular debts' they must be paid before our charitable giving--especially if those debts were incurred prior to the giving of the tithe.

Perhaps this is some of the quandry that has led some Christian financial counselors to suggest that Job #1 for believers is to get out of debt. The most conservative ones even suggest that a house mortgage ought to be quickly paid off (vs. investing the difference in the stock market, as some have suggested).

[Latter Days Guy]

Lets say a couple has filed bankrupcy. Are they still expected to pay a full tithe in order to get a TR, even though they are not paying their creditors?

Actually, some courts have banned LDS people from paying tithing if they owe their creditors.

Also, in part member families often a wife or husband who is not a member will prohibit the member spouse from paying tithing. That person can still get a recommend.

One thing that has troubled me is the gross or net payment thing. I know in Europe taxes are so high that members only pay on what they actually get after taxes generally. I think it's up to the member in these situations.

So are you to pay tithes on your gross or net pay? I thought it was worked out on net.

[Latter Days Guy]

Just worked out how much I pay in tax and stuff each month, it's £431.14 which works out as $843.22 a month!

[Outshined]

So are you to pay tithes on your gross or net pay? I thought it was worked out on net.

That's between you and God; whichever you believe is correct.

[Palerider]

Pay on gross income before taxes are taken out......this is my favorite time of year.....Tithing settlement time.....the time to meet with each member............

[shanstress70]

Just curious if this is your opinion or the requirement? I have heard that the opposite is the requirement from several LDS people when I was LDS, including my FIL who was a stake president. And if you want to pay on gross, that is of course optional.

[Latter Days Guy]

Just curious if this is your opinion or the requirement? I have heard that the opposite is the requirement from several LDS people when I was LDS, including my FIL who was a stake president. And if you want to pay on gross, that is of course optional.

what's a FIL?

[Outshined]

Father-In-Law

[BenRaines]

I understand it is tithe your increase. That would be gross income as an individual. Taxes are obligations just as health insurance is, mortgage payment, car payment, etc.

For a business owner it would be after costs. A business owner does not tithe on their gross revenue. They deduct cost of materials, employee costs, etc. It would be the amount before taxes.

In my not so humble opinion.

Ben Raines

Will a Man rob God?

[shanstress70]

Will a Man rob God?

I'm sure it's not most peoples' intention to rob God, but more like many people are struggling to make ends meet. It's easier for some of us who are in the 'somewhat comfortable' stage in life to judge those who have a hard time paying 10%. I'm talking about the many LDS who are young, newly married with children early on, perhaps while they're still in school. They need to scrape every penny to make it month to month.

I'm not saying you should or should not pay on gross... I'm saying that many times when one questions it, it's not because they want to 'rob' God.