speculation re timing of restoration

[searching_questioner]

Why was the church restored in 1830 rather than 1730 or 1630 or some other time? Think how many more souls would have enjoyed the fruits of the gospel in this life if the gospel had been restored sooner. To say that it was restored in 1830 because by that time the Lord had brought to pass the necessary technological, social, political and economic conditions conductive to the re-introduction of His gospel is to suggest that God had been unable to bring about these necessary preconditions any sooner, and that is a nonsense argument. God can, at any time, bring about whatever conditions are needed to bring about His purposes.

My tentative conclusion is that the reason why the gospel was restored when it was is because by that time, the balance amongst unborn spirits in the pre-existence between spirits who were unlikely to accept the gospel and spirits who were likely to accept the gospel had tipped in favour of those who were likely to accept. I think that God could have easily, at any time, adjusted the conditions necessary for the successful restoration of the Gospel, but He could not, or would not, adjust the readiness of the spirits waiting to come here, He had to wait until those spirits were ready. To restore the Gospel at a time when the likelihood that people would accept it was less than optimal would not have been in the best interests of those people.

This idea, which is purely speculative, and only vaguely related to scripture, is consistent with, and supports, the oft taught doctrine, also not found in scripture, that the most righteous spirits have been saved for the last days.

Any thoughts/comments/reactions?

[NeuroTypical]

Why? Dunno. We're left to speculate. I'm happy to throw your speculation in the pile with all the others I've heard.

[jerome1232]

God can, at any time, bring about whatever conditions are needed to bring about His purposes.

Mankind's free agency would like to have a word with you. I honestly don't think that your above statement is true, It suggests coercion to me.

I've also been awake for 26+ hours at the moment, so take anything I say with lots of salt, what am I doing on here? I need to get to sleep!

[John11111]

Yep, free agency as much as he wants he cannot force us to do what he wants it would be against the whole plan set up for us to come here in the 1st place.

[Traveler]

Why was the church restored in 1830 rather than 1730 or 1630 or some other time? Think how many more souls would have enjoyed the fruits of the gospel in this life if the gospel had been restored sooner. To say that it was restored in 1830 because by that time the Lord had brought to pass the necessary technological, social, political and economic conditions conductive to the re-introduction of His gospel is to suggest that God had been unable to bring about these necessary preconditions any sooner, and that is a nonsense argument. God can, at any time, bring about whatever conditions are needed to bring about His purposes.

My tentative conclusion is that the reason why the gospel was restored when it was is because by that time, the balance amongst unborn spirits in the pre-existence between spirits who were unlikely to accept the gospel and spirits who were likely to accept the gospel had tipped in favour of those who were likely to accept. I think that God could have easily, at any time, adjusted the conditions necessary for the successful restoration of the Gospel, but He could not, or would not, adjust the readiness of the spirits waiting to come here, He had to wait until those spirits were ready. To restore the Gospel at a time when the likelihood that people would accept it was less than optimal would not have been in the best interests of those people.

This idea, which is purely speculative, and only vaguely related to scripture, is consistent with, and supports, the oft taught doctrine, also not found in scripture, that the most righteous spirits have been saved for the last days.

Any thoughts/comments/reactions?

The time of the restoration was prophesied specific to 1830 in ancient biblical scriptures. Daniel translated the dream of Nebuchadnezzar that is quite specific concerning the time of the restoration (the stone cut from the mountain without hands). Daniel foretold of the great kingdoms of the earth - and specific to the Roman empire of iron that would be divided - first into two kingdoms (two legs of the figure) then the declining empire would be mixture of iron and clay - then when the Roman empire was divided into 10 kingdoms the restoration would take place - that pinpoints 1830 and the only time in history that the Roman empire was divided into 10 kingdoms - which have all fallen and been replaced by more democratic governments.

The Traveler

[searching_questioner]

Thanks for your comment Traveler, its an interesting point although it doesn't quite go to the heart of the matter as to why 1830 and not some other time. Nebuchadnezzar could have had a dream pointing to any other particular moment in history, but for some as yet unknown reason, the Lord chose 1830. As mentioned in my post, my suspicion that the variable in the question of the ideal date for the time of the gospel to be restored has more to do with the state of readiness of those in the pre-existence who were to receive the gospel rather than the state of readiness of the country or the world in which it was to be restored.

[searching_questioner]

Yep, free agency as much as he wants he cannot force us to do what he wants it would be against the whole plan set up for us to come here in the 1st place.

The following two scriptures are just two of the many examples of God influencing the acts and affairs of men to bring about His purposes. To suggest that God remains uninvolved is to suggest that He is idly sitting around hoping that things will work out according to His schedule. I think God is more active and involved than that.

1 Nephi 13:12

And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Doctrine and Covenants 101:80

And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

[Traveler]

Thanks for your comment Traveler, its an interesting point although it doesn't quite go to the heart of the matter as to why 1830 and not some other time. Nebuchadnezzar could have had a dream pointing to any other particular moment in history, but for some as yet unknown reason, the Lord chose 1830. As mentioned in my post, my suspicion that the variable in the question of the ideal date for the time of the gospel to be restored has more to do with the state of readiness of those in the pre-existence who were to receive the gospel rather than the state of readiness of the country or the world in which it was to be restored.

Hmmmmm - I think that the L-rd had everything planed out before the foundations of creation. That G-d waited 9 billion years after creating the universe to create the earth - should have given all the spirits in the pre-existence plenty of time to get ready. I think it is just a matter of doing things according to plan.

The Traveler

[mrmarklin]

The real question IMHO is not that the church (or the last dispensation) began in 1830 or 1825 or 1835,

but why did He withhold the gospel from the earth for 1400 years??????

From the end of the book of Mormon (421) until 1820 there is no published revelation, nor any indication of the true faith in any of the normal history books.

Based on the biblical accounts we have, this was unprecedented in world history.

I have no answers, and am open to suggestions.

[annewandering]

We have to have an environment where we can make free choices. Show me a place where the church would have even been allowed to flourish before that time let alone allow people a chance to hear of it and join? It was not long before that time that men who wanted to bring the Bible to the masses were burned or otherwise condemned to death.

There are still places in the world today that we can not go and preach in safety. Before then there were NO places. Even at that time, in the freest land in the world, our prophet was murdered.

[mrmarklin]

Well Anne, that sounds reasonable, but the reality is that when Moses re-introduced the gospel back into Egypt, conditions weren't all that great either.

[annewandering]

Well Anne, that sounds reasonable, but the reality is that when Moses re-introduced the gospel back into Egypt, conditions weren't all that great either.

And if you remember right they would only accept a lesser law. An eye for an eye etc. Jesus was known about before 1830. In essence they were living a lesser law than what Jesus had taught them. When there was an environment that they could START to live a higher law the Gospel was restored.

[SteveVH]

but why did He withhold the gospel from the earth for 1400 years??????

I think you had better study a little Christian history.

[jerome1232]

The following two scriptures are just two of the many examples of God influencing the acts and affairs of men to bring about His purposes. To suggest that God remains uninvolved is to suggest that He is idly sitting around hoping that things will work out according to His schedule.

Influence is a much different thing than, saying "make it so, and it's so". Influence still leaves the one being influenced opportunity to simply refuse to go along. I don't think anyone here is denying that God influences us, that is a given. What I'm saying is He can't snap his fingers and the entire population of earth is suddenly willing to accept His gospel.

[searching_questioner]

but why did He withhold the gospel from the earth for 1400 years??????

I have no answers, and am open to suggestions.

My suspicion is that the reason why the gospel was withheld for that period is because the people who were born during that period were of such a character that they would not have been ready or willing to accept it, so rather than give them an opportunity to accept something that they were not willing to, thereby bringing themselves under condemnation, God simply withheld it until such time as there was a sufficient number of people who were willing or likely to accept it once they were born.

[searching_questioner]

Influence is a much different thing than, saying "make it so, and it's so". Influence still leaves the one being influenced opportunity to simply refuse to go along. I don't think anyone here is denying that God influences us, that is a given. What I'm saying is He can't snap his fingers and the entire population of earth is suddenly willing to accept His gospel.

In effect, by exercising whatever degree of influence He exercised, God did indeed figuratively snap his fingers, and things gradually fell into place, it was just a very slow snap, although in God's timeframe, it might have been a very fast snap. No doubt there are reasons why the snap was so slow, as God usually has a reason for what He does and how He does it. I've speculated on one possible reason in an earlier post, but no doubt there are lots of possible reasons that I'm hoping others might suggest.

[searching_questioner]

When there was an environment that they could START to live a higher law the Gospel was restored.

I still maintain that the environment was a variable that could be altered to be whatever it needed to be at any particular time. This is, in fact, what God did over the hundreds of years leading up to 1830 - He created the conditions necessary for the restoration of the gospel. I just can't see God sitting around waiting and hoping for the time to come when He could restore His gospel. The timing was not a matter of chance, it happened at a very specific time. Because the environment could be varied to be whatever it needed to be, I'm suggesting that the timing - the selection of 1830 rather than some other date - was driven by some factors that God was less willing or less able to influence. The state of readiness or willingness of spirits in the pre-existence to accept the Gospel could be one such factor.

[mrmarklin]

We have to have an environment where we can make free choices. Show me a place where the church would have even been allowed to flourish before that time let alone allow people a chance to hear of it and join? It was not long before that time that men who wanted to bring the Bible to the masses were burned or otherwise condemned to death.

There are still places in the world today that we can not go and preach in safety. Before then there were NO places. Even at that time, in the freest land in the world, our prophet was murdered.

Hi

As a place to start maybe the Roman Empire in the 4th Century. Many conferences were held during the time frame to map out doctrine. It seems that sincere people were seeking the truth. The Church was co-opted by the Empire because it was very popular. This would have been a good time because a lot of people were understanding the power of the gospel message, but were very confused as to what scriptures were relevant, and how to interpret them.

Had God intervened with the real truth, who knows what may have happened? Remember even in apostasy, the Christian Church has continued to grow uninterrupted even up to the present time!

But of course we still needed the Restoration. Why not earlier????