Angels as Sons and Daughters of God

[CommanderSouth]

My Niece and Nephew were just baptized this last weekend. Other than myself they are the only members in my family. The pastor of the church they were going to brought up issues with the Jesus and Satan as brothers thing, and I remembered, I don't have much of anything on the nature of angels as they are in LDS teaching. Is there somewhere I can go for more info on this topic?

And I guess that ties into the question, is there an issue in believing that God and Christ are not co eternal (IE that Christ is a son of God in the spiritual sense as well)? As LDS I don't have an issue with it, but I don't have much info on the topic and how one could be christian and still believe such a thing...

I hope that made sense and thank you for your input.

[Vort]

"Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS!": Perhaps the single stupidest antiMormon argument in existence.

[applepansy]

"Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS!": Perhaps the single stupidest antiMormon argument in existence.

Especially considering we are also Spirit children of our Heavenly Father which makes Christ and Satan our older brothers.

[Just_A_Guy]

My Niece and Nephew were just baptized this last weekend. Other than myself they are the only members in my family. The pastor of the church they were going to brought up issues with the Jesus and Satan as brothers thing, and I remembered, I don't have much of anything on the nature of angels as they are in LDS teaching. Is there somewhere I can go for more info on this topic?

The Bible Dictionary appended to the LDS edition of the King James Bible is a good start.

And I guess that ties into the question, is there an issue in believing that God and Christ are not co eternal (IE that Christ is a son of God in the spiritual sense as well)? As LDS I don't have an issue with it, but I don't have much info on the topic and how one could be christian and still believe such a thing...

I'm LDS, but from the perspective of traditional Christian teaching I would venture to say that there is a very big issue with it.

First, from a mainline Christian standpoint, Jesus IS God - merely another facet or manifestation of a single trinitarian God. From a traditional Christian perspective, we Mormons appear to have basically created a separate, autonomous being called Elohim, labeled Him God the Father and the architect of all - even the creator of Jesus - and therefore supplanted Jesus from His natural and rightful role as the single God of the universe. We then teach (although perhaps not as stridently as we once did, via Elder McConkie and others) that it is technically Elohim, not Jesus, who is currently the object of our worship and to whom our prayers should be addressed. It sounds just as bizarre and blasphemous to them as it would be to us if someone walked into a sacrament meeting and taught that the Godhead includes a being called Thor who wields a hammer and created the other three members of the Godhead; and that hereafter we should pray only to Thor.

Second, as I understand it, from a mainline Christian standpoint Jesus was not created. He always existed and was always God. By contrast, the LDS version of the godhead implicitly asserts that there was a time when Jesus did not exist as an organized spirit (prior to His creation by Elohim), and that even after His spiritual creation there was a time before the Council in Heaven when He may not have properly been a member of the Godhead. Again: a mainline Christian will view this as blasphemy.

Please note that I'm not saying our LDS standpoint is wrong. Quite to the contrary. I'm only pointing out how completely foreign it must all sound to someone steeped in conventional Christian teaching.

[AnthonyB]

just_a_guy,

First, from a mainline Christian standpoint, Jesus IS God - merely another facet or manifestation of a single trinitarian God.

The correct (trinitarian) mainline Christian term is person, not "facet or manifestation" which are terms used by people who believe in modalism.

Trinitarian - 3 persons in 1 God or being

Modalism - 3 facets or manifestations in 1 God or being

Vort,

"Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS!": Perhaps the single stupidest antiMormon argument in existence.

Granted it is a very simplified and unnuanced saying but surely it does flow logically from LDS teaching.

We are all spririt children of God the Father

Jesus and Satan are therefore spirit children of God the Father

People who share the same Father are siblings

Therefore Jesus and Satan are "spirit" siblings (as are we all in the LDS view)

The trouble probably is that most people have little understanding of the LDS concept of pre-existence, the idea of "spirit" siblings is not comprehended and the concept collapses in thier minds to the simple statement that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

LDS believe that what mainline Christians views as different classes of being are infact a single class of beings in differing stages. So Gods, angels, mankind, intelligences are all the same type of being, what term or do you have a term that describes this single type of being that exists in those differing stages?

Edited September 5, 2012 by AnthonyB

[AnthonyB]

Duplicate posting (Mods feel free to delete)

Edited September 6, 2012 by AnthonyB

[CommanderSouth]

I do understand it is one of the most common and one of the cheapest shots taken by the ignorant, but there is doctrines attached that make it worthy of study.

Mainly the nature of angels and our place as spirit children of God, and the nature of the Godhead.

[Misshalfway]

I do understand it is one of the most common and one of the cheapest shots taken by the ignorant, but there is doctrines attached that make it worthy of study.

Mainly the nature of angels and our place as spirit children of God, and the nature of the Godhead.

So...what exactly is your question about the nature of angels?

[MorningStar]

This pastor I talked to would not stop talking about Jesus and Satan being brothers. I told him, "I already explained that to you." The next time he brought it up, I said, "Yeah. Satan is your brother too." He didn't like that. I said, "Don't you remember the war in Heaven when we helped kick him out? You held him down while I took an epilady to his armpit."

[AnthonyB]

Mornimngstar,

You've got to see that saying Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is deeply troubling to mainline Christians. Sort of like if your beloved Dad (presuming you really love your Dad) is brother to Pol Pot or Stalin. It just sounds so incredible offensive and although I don't often use the term, it comes across as about the most blasphemous concept imaginable. It really freaks people out.

Although I thought you response was humurous, I don't know if it would change how gobsmacked the pastor was by the idea.

Edited September 6, 2012 by AnthonyB

[Vort]

Mornimngstar,

You've got to see that saying Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is deeply troubling to mainline Christians. Sort of like if your beloved Dad (presuming you really love your Dad) is brother to Pol Pot or Stalin. It just sounds so incredible offensive and although I don't often use the term, it comes across as about the most blasphemous concept imaginable. It really freaks people out.

Although I thought you response was humurous, I don't know if it would change how gobsmacked the pastor was by the idea.

In any meaningful sense, the claim is a lie. It is designed solely for one purpose: To prejudice the ignorant and foolish against Mormonism. There is no attempt in the statement to give any sort of nuance or even frame of reference for the saying.

Anyone who makes the above statement with respect to Latter-day Saint doctrine is a fool or a liar, or both. There can be no exceptions.

[AnthonyB]

Vort,

Which part of the statements below is wrong?

We are all spririt children of God the Father

Jesus and Lucifer are both therefore spirit children of God the Father

People who share the same Father are siblings

Therefore Jesus and Satan are "spirit siblings"

If the concept of "spirit sibling" is not within the reference of understanding of an individual,

it will be taken to mean siblings in the more normal sense.

The LDS nuance of Jesus and Lucifer being spirit siblings collapses in non LDS minds to Jesus and Lucifer being brothers.

Edited September 6, 2012 by AnthonyB

[Vort]

Vort,

Which part of the statements below is wrong?

We are all spririt children of God the Father

Jesus and Lucifer are both therefore spirit children of God the Father

People who share the same Father are siblings

Therefore Jesus and Satan are "spirit siblings"

If the concept of "spirit sibling" is not within the reference of understanding of an individual,

it will be taken to mean siblings in the more normal sense.

The LDS nuance of Jesus and Lucifer being spirit siblings collapses in non LDS minds to Jesus and Lucifer being brothers.

Before I answer, you answer a question:

Why would anyone take offense at a belief that "Christ and Lucifer were brothers"? What, exactly, is offensive about it? I am not asking what you think is doctrinally incorrect about it. Rather, what is is that makes people go, "Oh, no! That is utterly repulsive!"?

Explain this to me, and I will answer your questions.

[AnthonyB]

Vort,

I don't know if you can always put clearly in words why some things are repugnant to people. But here goes....

Jesus in most Christians mind is the ultimate example of good, love, compassion, justice.

Lucifer is the ultimate example of evil, hate, injustice and general alround nastiness.

In traditional terms one is God and the other is a degenerate creature.

First point of revulsion is around how could two being so utterly different be related in such an intimate way. Wrongly or rightly it leaves people perplexed. Like meeting the family of mass murderer and finding them nice, there is no inherent reason why they shouldn't be nice but most people I think would find it disconcerting.

The other is that by making them brothers it easy to leave the impression that in some sense they are being placed on the same level. The ultimate expression of good and the ultimate expression of bad are not utterly divergent but not that far apart.

I'm sure if I thought more I might be able to explain it better but in the words of the guys from the movie "Princess Bride" it is just "inconceivable". I personally like a lot of LDS ideas and beliefs (just don't accept some of the them as being in line with my views of scripture) but I got to say the thought of even under a nuanced expalnation of placing Jesus in anyway the same context in any form to Lucifier is disconerting on a gut level response.

Edited September 6, 2012 by AnthonyB

[CommanderSouth]

I guess my question is, is there biblical evidence to support the idea that we are angels as spirit children of God and that angels are not a created race separate from humanity?

This being in response to miss halfway.

[Vort]

Vort,

I don't know if you can always put clearly in words why some things are repugnant to people. But here goes....

Jesus in most Christians mind is the ultimate example of good, love, compassion, justice.

Lucifer is the ultimate example of evil, hate, injustice and general alround nastiness.

In traditional terms one is God and the other is a degenerate creature.

First point of revulsion is around how could two being so utterly different be related in such an intimate way. Wrongly or rightly it leaves people perplexed. Like meeting the family of mass murderer and finding them nice, there is no inherent reason why they shouldn't be nice but most people I think would find it disconcerting.

The other is that by making them brothers it easy to leave the impression that in some sense they are being placed on the same level. The ultimate expression of good and the ultimate expression of bad are not utterly divergent but not that far apart.

And this is the answer to your question about my statement. The "spiritual sibling-hood" of Christ and Satan (and indeed of us all) in no possible way implies what you suggest above about any moral equivalence between the Lord and Satan.

On the contrary, your bolded statement above reflects perfectly the beliefs and attitudes of Latter-day Saints toward both Christ and Satan. Any explanation of LDS beliefs must therefore take this into account. Suggesting that Latter-day Saints must believe that Jesus is somehow morally equal with Satan is a lie of the blackest hue, so saying that our doctrine implies any such belief is also a lie. Lying liars lie, and those who suggest that Latter-day Saints believe any such things are lying liars (or fools). Please see them for the liars that they are and don't give them any credence.

I don't mind being judged for my beliefs. I refuse to be judged for someone's twisted, hateful, dishonest distortion of my beliefs.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Vort,

I don't know if you can always put clearly in words why some things are repugnant to people. But here goes....

Jesus in most Christians mind is the ultimate example of good, love, compassion, justice.

Lucifer is the ultimate example of evil, hate, injustice and general alround nastiness.

In traditional terms one is God and the other is a degenerate creature.

First point of revulsion is around how could two being so utterly different be related in such an intimate way. Wrongly or rightly it leaves people perplexed. Like meeting the family of mass murderer and finding them nice, there is no inherent reason why they shouldn't be nice but most people I think would find it disconcerting.

The other is that by making them brothers it easy to leave the impression that in some sense they are being placed on the same level. The ultimate expression of good and the ultimate expression of bad are not utterly divergent but not that far apart.

I'm sure if I thought more I might be able to explain it better but in the words of the guys from the movie "Princess Bride" it is just "inconceivable". I personally like a lot of LDS ideas and beliefs (just don't accept some of the them as being in line with my views of scripture) but I got to say the thought of even under a nuanced expalnation of placing Jesus in anyway the same context in any form to Lucifier is disconerting on a gut level response.

So, you would say that most Christians find it disconcerting that Abel had a brother named Cain?

I think it is a common theme in the scriptures, brother versus brother. There are too many examples to even list here. Essau and Jacob is another good example. The parable of the prodigal son. Joseph, son of Jacob, and his brothers. I can't see how that idea is offensive at all when it is such a prominent theme from the very beginning of the scriptures. It is a common theme in the Book of Mormon as well, Nephi and his brothers. I've even seen Christian writings that Abel represents Christ and Cain, the Jews. Was Christ not a brother to the Jews?

Matthew 10 " 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."

In other words, if the disciple has to suffer 'brother versus brother' persecution, isn't the master to suffer more than that?

Luke 12; "9 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three."

[Guest]

I guess my question is, is there biblical evidence to support the idea that we are angels as spirit children of God and that angels are not a created race separate from humanity?

This being in response to miss halfway.

Angels are spirit children of God, but not all spirit children of God are or will be angels. Have you done a scripture search on angels? Here is some reading from the Bible Dictionary: Angels

[MorningStar]

Mornimngstar,

You've got to see that saying Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is deeply troubling to mainline Christians. Sort of like if your beloved Dad (presuming you really love your Dad) is brother to Pol Pot or Stalin. It just sounds so incredible offensive and although I don't often use the term, it comes across as about the most blasphemous concept imaginable. It really freaks people out.

Although I thought you response was humurous, I don't know if it would change how gobsmacked the pastor was by the idea.

I don't see how it's any different than Christians who say God created evil. To simply state that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers without any background is misleading, as if we think Lucifer was a swell guy. We clearly don't. It also leaves out the fact that we believe we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father.

[Jason_J]

To me, what traditional Christians find "blasphemous" about the possibility of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers is that they believe that Jesus has eternally existed as God the Son, there never was a time that He didn't exist as God the Son, Second member of the Trinity, God. To say or imply that He is the brother of Lucifer would diminish that status, and would be impossible, since Jesus was never created and Lucifer was, according to that belief.

[Vort]

To me, what traditional Christians find "blasphemous" about the possibility of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers is that they believe that Jesus has eternally existed as God the Son, there never was a time that He didn't exist as God the Son, Second member of the Trinity, God. To say or imply that He is the brother of Lucifer would diminish that status, and would be impossible, since Jesus was never created and Lucifer was, according to that belief.

This is theological reasoning, and I don't believe it occurs to one person in a hundred. Take away the stupid "Jesus and Satan are brothers!!!!!" nonsense and just tell them we believe Christ was the Son of God -- which the Bible teaches -- and therefore was created by God, and they might disagree, but vanishingly few would feel upset or indignant at the idea.

[Seminarysnoozer]

To me, what traditional Christians find "blasphemous" about the possibility of Jesus and Lucifer being brothers is that they believe that Jesus has eternally existed as God the Son, there never was a time that He didn't exist as God the Son, Second member of the Trinity, God. To say or imply that He is the brother of Lucifer would diminish that status, and would be impossible, since Jesus was never created and Lucifer was, according to that belief.

I think that mind block is as a result of not understanding one specific aspect of the eternal plan of happiness which is the possibility to inherit ALL that the Father has. The question to ponder would be, is it possible to inherit things that are eternal, therefore making one with those things?

If one could only inherit certain aspects of ALL that God has, then the inheritance is not full. It would also have to include inheriting all that was and will be. It is hard to comprehend that kind of inheritance because we think of "inheritance" as a static number or a portion of something bigger. But that is exactly what makes our religion different, we believe in a shared and FULL inheritance as exemplified in the story of the prodigal son. It does not have to be partial or even temporally partial. By receiving an inheritance it does not take away from the whole. Inheritance is a gift, by definition, that does not have to be created by self. If it was created by self only then it is not "inheritance" it is simply the product of one's own work. The plan of full happiness works on the principle of reaping where one has not sown and by receiving usury from the stewards without diminishing the whole. In other words, allowing someone to partake of Eternal glory does not diminish the eternal value of all that God has and does not take away it's eternal, always existed status.

[AnthonyB]

Vort,

Whilst I can perceive and understand your anger at those who deliberately distort LDS views to malign what you believe to the true gospel message, do you really think that most people who find that statement shocking do so out of malice? Despite its origins in malice, I think that most people who hold it do so in ignorance.

I can see that if anyone understood that LDS views on Jesus and Satan, that it would remove much of sting of the concept. However you haven't addressed the logic flow of how an ignorant person may inadvertantly follow the logic listed above and be gobsmacked by it.

My attempt at an answer to an ignorant person would be (if I where LDS)...

We believe that God the Father was involved in bringing about all beings that we know about this includes Jesus, angels, ourselves and even Satan.

Jesus was so immeasurebly in tune with God, that he shared being devine with Father God.

The Bible in Job refers to angles as Sons of God, it also refers to people as sons of God and so yes even Satan is a Son of God, albeit a fallen depraved son.

They are brothers in the sense that God is the Father of us all but we agree with you that are as utterly unalike in personality, nature or glory.

[Vort]

do you really think that most people who find that statement shocking do so out of malice?

No. I think the people who make the statement do so out of malice. They are liars.

I can see that if anyone understood that LDS views on Jesus and Satan, that it would remove much of sting of the concept. However you haven't addressed the logic flow of how an ignorant person may inadvertantly follow the logic listed above and be gobsmacked by it.

The logic fails because you fail to recognize that terms like "father" and "brother" are approximations. "Father" and "brother" are biological relationships. How does human mortal biology apply to premortal spirits? Answer: It doesn't. We call God our "Father" because it's the closest relationship we know that resembles God's relationship to us. But God's relationship to us is much closer than, and intimately different from, that of a biological father to his son or daughter.

If you (not you personally, but a person) are going to criticize LDS doctrine, you must do it on LDS terms and understand what those terms mean. To do otherwise is dishonest -- which is just what those liars are who make such claims.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Vort. I hope you've had a good week! :)

How does human mortal biology apply to premortal spirits? Answer: It doesn't.

In what sense do you think this statement is true? Can you clarify this position any or do you feel that it is a self evident truth?

We call God our "Father" because it's the closest relationship we know that resembles God's relationship to us. But God's relationship to us is much closer than, and intimately different from, that of a biological father to his son or daughter.

In what way is God's relationship to us "intimately different" from that of a biological father to his child?

Regards,

Finrock