Streets are about to get more dangerous.

[John11111]

Ok anyone who wants to can get a gun illegally very easily. I have a good friend who ive known for many years, he grew up in really bad neighborhood whos friends and uncles and even brothers were in gangs.

He explained to me how easy it was to get a gun, people sell them from the back of the trunks of there cars, you can get an ak47 with ammo for 50 bucks.... Im pretty sure that being able to print guns will have no real impact on the accesibility of arms and ammo to criminals.

[NightSG]

So, it would be just as if you walked into a gun shop or machinist and made one... except, now you don't have to leave your garage.

Most serious machinists wouldn't have to leave their garage to make a gun anyway.

Remember, guns are old tech.

Khyber Pass Copy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ClickyClack]

Its not about guns being more dangerous (other then the possibility of being poorly designed and blowing up in the users face) Its about guns being more accessible... Got a guy who is currently unable to legally carry? All he will need is a printer, or a friend with a printer or someone with a printer that he can intimate/bribe. Now admittedly a harden criminal is going to find a way to get a gun anyways... But there are other classes of people that would be scary to have holding gun. Like a kid, or like anyone that prints one up because they can but they don't bother to get trained on how to use it safely.

Let me ask you something: Those people who can't legally have a gun, but would have someone "print" one for them. Do you really think that they're not getting guns already?

It would be the fact that you could get the gun with no regulation at all. They would be virtually untraceable if used in the commission of a crime. Anyone could get one including clearly mentally compromised individuals and yes I know they can now if they try but it just would make it easier.

Traceable in a crime? Such people generally already use guns that are stolen, or simply destroy them. Criminals already take "traceable" guns, obliterate the serial numbers, damage the barrel/bolt face, and render them "untraceable". This would change nothing. (Keep in mind that in obliterating the serial number, they're already committing yet another crime.)

Ooh, I hope for that Paris dress technology!

All right, I definitly get the accessibility (which is exactly what I find cool) but if this were to become a problem, wouldn't laws be developed to match everything?

I'm still not 100% how this works, but clearly this will require materials. Couldn't those be limited through permits and whatnot?

It's pretty tough to regulate aluminum, steel, and plastic.

Like it or not, criminals with the intent to use a firearm in their crimes are not deterred by any of these laws. If they're already willing to risk a felony for having a firearm when they shouldn't, and more felonies for committing a crime and for using a gun in their crime, then adding one more felony on the list for having an illegal firearm isn't going to change things. By the time they're done with their crime, there's generally already at least 10-20 different laws that they have broken, what's one more on top of that? That's the funny thing about criminals... they have this annoying way of skirting around laws.

Edited September 17, 2012 by ClickyClack

[Blackmarch]

Let me ask you something: Those people who can't legally have a gun, but would have someone "print" one for them. Do you really think that they're not getting guns already?

the question is not whether or not they will be able to get one, but how long it would take them to get one.

Traceable in a crime? Such people generally already use guns that are stolen, or simply destroy them. Criminals already take "traceable" guns, obliterate the serial numbers, damage the barrel/bolt face, and render them "untraceable". This would change nothing. (Keep in mind that in obliterating the serial number, they're already committing yet another crime.)

I agree. But on the other hand adding more options to a situation will bog down investigations that much more. No idea how significant that will be.

It's pretty tough to regulate aluminum, steel, and plastic.

Like it or not, criminals with the intent to use a firearm in their crimes are not deterred by any of these laws. If they're already willing to risk a felony for having a firearm when they shouldn't, and more felonies for committing a crime and for using a gun in their crime, then adding one more felony on the list for having an illegal firearm isn't going to change things. By the time they're done with their crime, there's generally already at least 10-20 different laws that they have broken, what's one more on top of that? That's the funny thing about criminals... they have this annoying way of skirting around laws.

usually committing a crime will entail commiting more crimes.

while this is true to some extent there's more than just the law that factor into what a criminal can get or do... laws can do quite a bit in shaping the environment that a criminal can operate in.

[NightSG]

the question is not whether or not they will be able to get one, but how long it would take them to get one.

A 3D print takes hours, and that's just for one part, not the whole gun. An average machinist could turn out a single-shot handgun on typical hobbyist equipment in the time it would take to 3D print the trigger.

Tolerances start getting more important if you want multiple shots and/or accuracy, but that just means more time for the machinist. There are freely available plans online for at keast 3 different full auto 9mm pistols that wouldn't require any tools more specialized than a bandsaw to produce in a day. (With hand tools only, I'd say around a week for a determined builder.) All three look completely functional, and safety is a matter of the materials used.

Guns are simple. The Chinese had basic firearms as early as the eighth century. Joseph Belton developed what would be considered a fully automatic rifle prior to 1877. Richard Gatling started producing his crew-served machine gun in the 1860s, and Hiram Maxim produced a modern, single barrel recoil operated machine gun just 20 years after that. Anything that could be made with 150 year old technology can be made more easily and quickly now with readily available materials and tools.

[ClickyClack]

the question is not whether or not they will be able to get one, but how long it would take them to get one.

From what I've heard from folks who have done it, getting an illegal gun, with the barrel and bolt face marred takes as much as a few hours. Faster than making your own.

while this is true to some extent there's more than just the law that factor into what a criminal can get or do... laws can do quite a bit in shaping the environment that a criminal can operate in.

Not very well. Unless you're going to go completely totalitarian, laws just make criminals shift their methods. Just like all of the regulation on pseudoephedrine was going to make it harder to make meth, but didn't - the criminals just started getting it from different sources.

[Blackmarch]

From what I've heard from folks who have done it, getting an illegal gun, with the barrel and bolt face marred takes as much as a few hours. Faster than making your own.

exactly; so what happens when you have that option, and then bring down the difficulty of making one to the point where it's a competing or complementing option?

Not very well. Unless you're going to go completely totalitarian, laws just make criminals shift their methods. Just like all of the regulation on pseudoephedrine was going to make it harder to make meth, but didn't - the criminals just started getting it from different sources.

yes and no.

yes in that those who are addicted to something will do whatever to get it.

no in that totalitarian is a bit vague; you may have to change the whole system to achieve a totalitarian effect, or you may have to hit a few linch pins to cause a system wide change that may be just as effective. The problem here in this case is seeing all the variables and then predicting the effects. The other problem is hitting the right ones.

[NeuroTypical]

Recent news:

Working gun made with 3D printer

I'm still not worried this technology will change the current U.S. violent crime landscape in any measurable way (other than perhaps measuring how many platic guns vs. 'real' guns are used.)

But - people will have easy access to make their own guns!

People in the US already have easy access to guns. For a heck of a lot cheaper than $8,000 for a machine, plus supplies, plus technical knowhow required to print one.

But - people will be able to make untraceable guns!

People in the US already have easy access to untraceable guns. Because making them tracable means registration laws, which people fight for good reasons (namely, they only harm the law-abiding, they don't work, and they're unconstitutional).

If you must be worried about something, it seems to me that worrying about the bad guys in our midst (who have always been there) is a more appropriate worry, than the composition of the weapon he'll use.

[Lakumi]

jeez 3-d printers can make anything nowadays...

I know a lady who makes ball jointed doll my little ponies...

I never thought the same technology could make a gun

[selek]

This thread epitomizes so much of what is wrong with the gun "control" debate and with current politics in general.

To begin with, the OP begs the question.

In point of fact, it is NOT demonstrably true that "printable" guns will make the streets less safe.

It is readily arguable that the reverse is true;

Statistics consistently show that concealed-carry states have significantly lower rates of both crime and gun crime.

When and where a would-be perp has to wonder about whether his planned crime will get him shot, he hesitates- and often chickens out.

If any citizen can "print" their own weapons at their leisure, that's going to introduce a LOT of doubt into our criminal class (including those in elective office).

I could spend the next thousand words picking apart the other assumptions and prejudices involved, but others have been doing so ably.

Fundamentally, the problem is this: because someone, somewhere "might" do something with which the lace-panty crowd disagrees, they insist upon laws to prevent such a hypothetical.

Because someone, somewhere "might" abuse their liberty and agency, they choose to strip the rest of us our liberty and agency, for fear of their boogeyman.

Out of their fear and desire to be protected, they punish the rest of us, deprive us of the rights which God gave us, knowing full well that such restraints will not deter the determined criminal.

NONE of the "gun-control" laws proposed thus far (nor hinted at in this thread) would have stopped any of the atrocities to which we've been witness over the last couple of years.

NOT ONE.

But that hasn't stopped the timid amongst us from proposing additional burdens on the law-abiding, additional invasions of privacy, or additional intrusions into our homes, our beliefs, or our practices.

And they do this because it is self-indulgent and self-satisfying. They get to congratulate themselves for being "enlightened" and "open-minded", and can pat themselves on the back for "doing something".

And yet all they are doing is adjusting the ruffle on the Emperor's new clothes.

They are as naked and as willfully blind as he, and are every bit as much a servant of evil and tyranny as the criminal they fear.

Each of these proposed "solutions" is a feel-good panacea demanded by timid souls who wish to be protected at all costs- and who don't care that they- and their children- are being shackled by their would-be protectors.

It is a matter of historical record that in the post-Civil War South, many of the slaves stayed on at the plantations of their former masters in exchange for the "protection" and "guidance" they provided.

I find it deeply ironic how many are eager to take up residence on such a plantation today.

I am an American, as were my fathers and grandfathers before me.

I am a free citizen in a free land.

I have no need to be afraid.

I need no protector.

I need no provider.

I need no master.

How many of you can say the same?

Edited May 6, 2013 by selek

[Magen_Avot]

The tech is clearly amazing. No doubt about that.

Ok for 4k I can make a gun. Can I use the same 4k to make an Uzi? Or a mortor? Or ok lets go all the way. Can I use it to make a bomb? Where is the limit? Size? Materials?

Can I use it to make a Paris fashion dress for just the price of the material? Are there limits?

This is serious!

No $4000 printer would be able to print a dress within church standards.