Conversion

[Reagan]

Hello everyone! I am interested in converting to Mormonism due to all the research I've done over the internet, however there are some things that bother me that I'd like you guys to help me with. If you give me a satisfying answer it could mean a world of difference for my fate.

If it helps as of now I just identify as a Christian (was raised up Baptist but classify myself as Non-denom). I have faith in Jesus Christ and our Heavenly father, read my KJV bible, but feel as if most modern Protestants have it really wrong. I feel as if some contemporary Christian doctrines seem a bit off/unfair. I read about all religion, and something about LDS keeps having me reading more. The doctrines really interest me, and I've began to read the Book of Mormon due to my increasing curiosity.

Here are my concerns/questions:

1. Doesn't the Papyri/Book of Abraham thing disprove the whole set of beliefs? What are your responses to this controversy?

2. What is the deal with the race issue? I always see quotes from Brigham Young talking about how "Negroes will be servants in the celestial kingdom" so on so forth. Since african-americans weren't allowed the Priesthood until late in the 20th century, were they stuck in the lowest degree?

3. Was the only reason polygamy was outlawed via revelation due to U.S. government pressure or moral obligation?

Sorry if some of this seemed offensive, that was not my intention. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of these issues . I see the Mormon faith as a very beautiful one and feel the Lord's power present within the practice. Thank you in advance for any help you can provide, once I get to the bottom of these controversies I feel I will have nothing keeping me from becoming a member.

[skippy740]

Welcome!

#1 - No idea what you're referring to.

#2 - Start here: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/45876-scriptures-church-history-racism-blacks-scriptures.html

#3 - I'd read this: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng

Let's start there and see how else we can help you clarify these things.

How's your Book of Mormon reading?

[estradling75]

To convert one must gain a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that the LDS church today is currently lead by a prophet of God. That is what it takes for a Christian to convert. A non Christian has to gain Faith in Christ first and then the above.

Now I am sure other will come along with more detailed explanations for your three questions but here are mine.

1. Utterly irrelevant. People are quibbling over how Joseph Smith received revelation of the Pearl of Great Price's Book of Abraham. I know that he did receive it (through the above mentioned witness of the Holy Ghost), and therefore the details of how are not important. Did he translate documents we don't have? Or did the documents inspire revelation from on high? I don't know and I don't care. All that is important to me is that it is the word of God.

2. As for the race issue I assume Skippy (and others) will be by to drop off references... Other then that, I know that God will be just and fair with all his dealings with his children no matter what their skin color. Do I need a perfect or even remotely complete understanding of 'how' this is going to work? No... Not even close. That is what faith is for.

3. The important thing is that it was a revelation. Could God have done it for political reasons? Sure. Why not? What ever God's reasons are they are good enough for me. I don't need to understand why God does something, I just need to have faith in him.

Ultimately that is the commonality of all your questions. Is God working through the LDS prophets or is he not? While like I said I am sure others will come along with a more detailed explanation for your questions, but to answer the underlying question requires you to get on your knees and ask God. That is the only answer that really matters.

edit: Hah Skippy ninja-ed me

[Guest]

skippy --->

[Reagan]

Welcome!

#1 - No idea what you're referring to.

#2 - Start here: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/45876-scriptures-church-history-racism-blacks-scriptures.html

#3 - I'd read this: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng

Let's start there and see how else we can help you clarify these things.

How's your Book of Mormon reading?

This is what I'm talking about in question #1: Book of Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the links, they are clarifying things. My Book of Mormon reading is going well. It is very interesting, I've just been reading in order. Do you have any recommendations of what to pray in order to receive guidance with my reading?

[Guest]

Pray for whatever you need. Peace, clarity, guidance, etc.

[skippy740]

I would read 3 Nephi 11 & Alma 32. Very good chapters to begin your reading.

As far as the Book of Abraham is concerned, either Joseph Smith Jr is a prophet of God... or he isn't.

Once you have that answer, you'll have your answer in regards to the Book of Abraham.

A prophet does not need to have validation of the world in order to be a prophet of God.

[Just_A_Guy]

The LDS Church hasn't officially tackled the issues Egyptologists have raised regarding the Book of Abraham. A non-official group called FAIR has come up with a lot of counter-arguments, which you may find helpful - start here.

FAIR's basic argument seems to be that we don't have the entire Joseph Smith papyri, and there's just no way of knowing what was on the missing fragments. I personally find that line of argument suspect - some educated guesses as to the papyrus' original length, based on the existing physical evidence, seems to suggest that there wasn't room on the scrolls for anything other than the Book of Breathings (John Gee of FAIR takes exception to this, and he's certainly a lot smarter than I am, but I remain unconvinced).

For me, regardless of what Smith or his ghost-editors at Times and Seasons may have publicly pronounced, I don't feel theologically bound to accept the Joseph Smith papyri as any older than 200 BCE or so. For all I know, the Book of Breathings was a severely bastardized form of some ancient record of Abraham's and Smith used it as a catalyst for further revelation as to what Abraham originally wrote (much as he used a recently-printed King James edition of the Bible to clarify or restore Biblical teachings in his Joseph Smith Translation). Or, maybe it didn't relate to Abraham at all but nevertheless got Smith asking God the right questions, which then led to the revelation of the book (much like the way our temple liturgy has some significant parallels with Masonic ritual).

For all that: while the archaeology and scientific method is "very interesting", I subscribe to Mormonism first and foremost because it's where God told me He wants me to be. No matter what faith you ultimately go with, there will always be some "scientifically-minded' hot-shots who think they can prove you wrong. And at least one of them is going to know the subject matter better than you. At some point, you've got to take things on faith. Someone can read hieroglyphics backwards and forwards and still not know squat about how God talks to me, or what He has said.

[Vort]

1. Doesn't the Papyri/Book of Abraham thing disprove the whole set of beliefs? What are your responses to this controversy?

No, of course not. Such a thing is probably not even falsifiable. JaG gave the best response to this, I think. Past that, it's a non-issue. My response: "Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, or he was and is not. It's a binary proposition. And textual studies of ancient manuscripts will not reveal that divine truth to you."

2. What is the deal with the race issue? I always see quotes from Brigham Young talking about how "Negroes will be servants in the celestial kingdom" so on so forth. Since african-americans weren't allowed the Priesthood until late in the 20th century, were they stuck in the lowest degree?

No. Brigham Young was one of the great men in the 19th Century, and I daresay in all of history. He was a man of his time and held beliefs typical of his time. Hardly surprising.

3. Was the only reason polygamy was outlawed via revelation due to U.S. government pressure or moral obligation?

No. President Woodruff (LDS Church president) made it clear that the commandment to live polygamy was being withdrawn from the Church. As the Book of Mormon teaches, unless polygamy is specifically commanded, it is forbidden.

Sorry if some of this seemed offensive, that was not my intention. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of these issues.

No offense taken; your questions are perfectly legitimate. But divine truth ultimately comes only through revelation. The answer to your questions is really found through asking God for insight rather than leafing through antiMormon (or proMormon) opinions.

[Hyena]

Interestingly enough, although the church did officially grant priesthood to Blacks (I hate African American as a label as I am not from Africa and am related to nobody who has BEEN to that continent in probably 200 years), it wasn't the first time the Church had a more positive opinion of blacks in service. According to a lot of what I've read, it wasn't until Brigham Young came along that those "policies" towards negroes were hashed out, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it was more due to social pressure than any true malice... I mean, New York State, Missouri... these states haven't been notoriously friendly towards Mormons let alone colored people to begin with, so it was probably one less fence the church wanted to build at what was already a difficult time where from my understanding Mormons were literally being slain for simply being MORMON. Sounds like blacks and LDS church members have more in common than we think.

But there were already priests of color in the LDS under Joseph Smith. We know of at least one or two historically. And Joseph Smith from what I've read in his papers (The Joseph Smith papers is an amazing book, if you can find a copy... I bought one off Amazon and have been reading it. I find biographies of historical persons particularly fascinating regardless of their reputation. I read a lot of them.. and he was an amazingly fascinating man. And an avid Abolitionist).

But what I've sort of learned in life is that I've stopped caring about race history to be honest. What people and organizations did 30, 40, 100 years ago no longer is relevant to me. It's been nearly 40 years since the Church reversed course on its stances on minorities. What we should concern ourselves with is how WE can best serve our Lord God, what the church's stance is NOW and will be in the FUTURE, and how you and I and other blacks (I'm assuming you're black based on you asking the question, but I could be wrong and I doubt it's very relevant anyways if you aren't) help to shape and change those stances, opinions, and policies through our dedication and acts.

As someone considering conversion too, I have concerns too. So if you'd like you are welcome to message me and maybe we can learn together. :)

[livy111us]

Regarding the book of Abraham, I would say FAIR is one of the best resources. Here is a book written by an Egyptologist on the book of Abraham. It is more of an introduction to defense and evidences of the book of Abraham:

A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri by John Gee

Here are other books and articles which go into more detail:

Astronomy, Papyrus, and Covenant by John Gee, and Brian M. Hauglid

Abraham in Egypt by Hugh W. Nibley

Articles written by Egyptologist John Gee: Viewing Author: John Gee

Articles written by Egyptologist Michael Rhodes: Viewing Author: Michael D. Rhodes

Articles written by Egyptologist Kerry Muhlestein: Viewing Author: Kerry Muhlestein

and the first 10 of almost 2,000 articles and resources on the book of Abraham: Search results for "abraham"

My favorite resource is a DVD that FAIR has recently released on evidences of the book of Abraham. They interview Egyptologists, historians, linguists, and other scholars on evidences and it makes a very strong case for it's authenticity.

You can watch a trailer of it here:

and purchase it here: Most Remarkable Book, A: Evidence for the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Abraham - FAIR LDS Bookstore

[Reagan]

Thank you all very much for your help guys, I feel I am starting to get onto the right path.

[Mormonfanboy]

Dont do it!!!

The church is a cult. Joseph Smith was a scam artist. As you pointed out, he was a lousy scholar and the papyri of abraham was nothing more than an Egyptian funerary text.

There were no Hebrews in the ancient world. This implication is offensive to Native Americans. The whole story of the Book of Mormon is one big fraud. The modern LDS church leaders know this but they are more than willing to propagate the whole thing for financial gain.

Individual mormons are good people, they don't know they are being scammed. Don't get fooled too. Someone will probably ban me or delete this so I hope you get to see it. Talk to other ex-mormons and get all sides of the story. You don't need their values, or salvation, or whacky doctrines about being a god of your own planet. Check out all the whacky things they really believe. You won't hear this stuff from missionaries.

Think for yourself!!