A delicate question- living in Utah County

[Irishcolleen]

We have known for a while that my husband may have to move to Utah for work. We need to make a decision about this in the next few weeks. This forum has taught me that Mormons are nice, normal folks. However, I have heard horror stories about bringing up non-Mormon kids in Utah.

We have 1 daughter at home. She is in high school. She is quite gifted musically (even playing in our community colleges chamber orchestra. We live in one of the largest cities in the country). We are concerned that she may not have the same opportunities in Utah because she is not Mormon. Is there a pecking order where Mormon kids are given preferential treatment regardless of their ability? We don't want to do anything that would hinder her future.

This is the only thing holding us back. We love the mountains and it would be nice to live in an area where people shared our values on morality, modesty, chastity, substance abuse and family.

I appreciate any insights you may have.

[Backroads]

I grew up in Weber County, and growing up noticed absolutely no difference in pecking order--in school, you didn't always know what religion anyone was. In Idaho, I did notice one incident that was the reverse of your worry--a non-LDS teacher was giving non-LDS kids preferential treatment. But in my experience it really did seem fair.

[Bini]

I had a cultural shock more than anything. That said, I don't recall many high school aged kids proclaiming their religion just for the sake of it, so unless you attended seminary or church together - people had no idea.

[Vort]

I believe that people find what they're looking for. In my experience, the people in Utah County are much friendlier than average, and it's a nice environment. But those who look for reasons to be offended will find them. If you look to see how your neighbors are treating you different for not being LDS, I expect you will find examples. If you look to see how friendly your neighbors are, I expect you'll see that.

But I was a Mormon when I lived in Utah County, so I'm sure that colors my viewpoint.

[trubludru]

My thoughts on the matter, I don't think most people at school will notice or care whether or not your daughter is LDS. I don't imagine that she would have less opportunity for things like school orchestra or at other school functions or activiites.

That being said, realistically, for many LDS church members in Utah a lot of social life can revolve around church functions and groups. So it is not unheard of for people and especially teenagers who are not part of the church to feel excluded to some degree by others in their neighborhood. Of course your daughter should be welcome to participate in church activities with local girls if she wanted to, and hopefully others will be friends with outside of church anyway, but it is just one of the things, where people may be unintentionally excluded. But it really just depends on the particular situation and area, hopefully you find a good neighborhood with good neighbors.

Utah county probably has the highest density of Mormons in the urbanized part of Utah (the Wasatch Front) compared to Salt Lake, Davis, Weber counties etc. And in my opinion and many others I know in Utah, Utah county is known to have a unique culture even compared to the rest of Utah. Not saying that it is necessairily bad or anything, but I imagine it will be quite the change and cultureshock coming from a different part of the country.

[NeuroTypical]

I have heard horror stories about bringing up non-Mormon kids in Utah.

Oh don't worry - there are plenty of horror stories about bringing up Mormon kids in Utah too!

Seriously, if you end up in Utah, you will find much that is the same, and some things that are different.

The same:

* People are people and kids are kids. That means you might find nice folks, jerks, smart people, fools, saints and evil people, the whole spectrum. Both in and out of LDS circles.

* In High School, there will be cliques, groups, unjustness, random acts of kindness, unfairness, people who appreciate differences, and people who shun people who are not alike.

Different:

* It seems like having an opinion about the church and mormons is mandatory. There are two points on a continuum, with 'LDS who fear and shun nonmembers' on one end, and 'nonmembers who despise the church and Mormons' on the other. You can fall wherever you choose to fall - and somewhere in the middle you'll be in plenty of good company. But yes, you will probably encounter the extremes.

* DO NOT LET MORMONS FOOL YOU - we fall prey to all the sins and horribleness and idiocy as anyone else. But you may encounter people who seem to prefer appearing good over actually being good. (If you think about it, you can find these people everywhere. But in Utah, it can be a neighborhood, community, or cultural thing.)

* Don't expect work parties to involve alcohol. (At least, that was my experience there until I left in 2000.)

[NeuroTypical]

Also, you may find these useful. Feel free to ask for clarification:

you know you're from Utah when...

Green jell-o with carrots mixed in doesn't seem strange.

You can pronounce Tooele.

The U is not just a letter - Neither is the Y.

You have actually eaten funeral potatoes.

You've gotten both heat and frost burns off your car's door handle in the same month.

You are not surprised to hear words like "Darn, Fetch, Flip", "Oh, My Heck" and "Shoot".

Your tulips get snowed on three times after they come up and twice more after they bloom.

Hunting season is a school holiday.

The largest liquor store is the state government.

You can go skiing and play golf on the same day.

30% humidity is muggy and almost unbearable.

Somewhere in your family tree is a polygamist.

You know the difference between a 'Steak House' and a 'Stake House'.

The elevation exceeds the population

You've broken down on the highway and somebody stops to help you

You can see the stars at night

You have a bumper sticker that says "Families are Forever."

You were an aunt or uncle before you were three.

Your spouse's mother was pregnant at your wedding.

You have more children than you can find biblical names for.

Your family considers a trip to McDonald'd a night out.

Your first child was conceived on your honeymoon.

You feel guilty when you watch Monday Night Football.

Your kids believe the deer hunt is a national holiday.

You drink Coke from a brown paper bag.

You consider a temple recommend a credit reference.

At least two of your salad bowls are at the homes of neighbors.

You believe that you must be 18 or older to order coffee at a restaurant.

You wonder why fire truck drivers honk when you drive 35 mph in the left lane on the freeway.

There is a similarity between a ward basketball game and the L.A. riots.

You think Jack Daniels is a country western singer.

You negotiate prices at a garage sale.

You can make Jell-O salad without the recipe.

You've heard about BYU football in a spiritual talk at church.

You have two gallons of ice cream in your freezer at all times.

Your father-in-law thinks Ronald Reagan was a liberal.

A member of your family wrote in Lavell Edwards for president in the last election.

Cars in the slow lane are traveling the fastest; cars in the fast lane are traveling the slowest; cars in the middle lanes are always trying to exit.

Sandals are the best-selling shoes.

You have to ask for the uncensored version of "Titanic."

You buy your wardrobe at the local grocery superstore.

You learn about the Mormon Church by taking history in elementary school.

You live in a state where Democrats always come in third place, unless a zoo animal is running. Then they come in fourth.

You're on your own if you are turning left.

Schools stay open, even if two feet of snow falls overnight, but close for the opening of hunting season.

People wear shorts and T-shirts if the temperature rises above 32 degrees.

There is a church on every corner, but they all teach the same thing.

The most popular public transportation system is a ski lift.

People drive to Idaho (or Arizona) to pick up a gallon of milk so they can play the lottery.

In-state college football rivalries are bigger than the Super Bowl.

Beer drinkers don't shop on Sunday.

Every driveway has a minivan and a pickup truck.

When you buy a new vehicle, cigarette lighters are optional equipment but gun and ski racks are standard.

Every time a new family moves into your neighborhood, the local elementary school has to hire a new teacher.

Your paycheck has an additional 10 percent deduction.

"Temple recommends" is acceptable identification for cashing a check.

More movies are filmed in your town than in Hollywood.

You've never had a Mormon missionary knock on your door.

Your neighbors complain about where they live, yet refuse to return to the state they moved from.

You make a toast with red punch at your wedding reception.

You have more raw wheat in your basement than some Third World countries.

Your idea of a good time is playing Pictionary in the cultural hall.

Your idea of a wild party is a six pack of Pepsi and a PG-13 movie.

You and all your friends come to your mother for a haircut in her kitchen.

You measure Kool-Aid by parts per million.

You think "You're a 10 cow wife" is a compliment.

If you won't drink ice tea because the Word of Wisdom cousels avoiding hot beverages, you might be a Mormon.

If you think forty-five members is about right for a Quorum of Seventy, you might be a Mormon.

There's a Mormon, by Jeff Foxworthy:

This is to all of you that may be a Mormon, that may know a Mormon, that may live in Utah, that may have lived in Utah or have heard about Mormons.

If all your dishes have your name written on them with masking tape... You might be a Mormon.

If you postdate your checks while shopping on Sunday... You might be a Mormon.

If you believe Heck is the place for people who do not believe in gosh... You might be a Mormon.

If your Mom was pregnant at your sister's wedding reception.. You might be a Mormon.

If you pray that your food might "nourish and strengthen your body" before eating doughnuts... You might be a Mormon.

If you think Jell-O is one of the basic food groups... You might be a Mormon.

If at least one of your salad bowls is at a neighbor's house... You might be a Mormon.

If you've ever written a "Dear-John" to more than two missionaries on the same day.... You might be a Mormon.

If you were frustrated when your son "only" got accepted to Harvard... You might be a Mormon.

If you have one kid in diapers and one on a mission... You might be a Mormon.

If you have never arrived at a meeting on time... You might be a Mormon.

If you have more wheat stored in your basement than most third world countries... You might be a Mormon.

If you've already got your order in for volume 50 of "The Work and The Glory"...You might be a Mormon.

If you think it is all right to watch football on Sundays as long as a direct descendant of Brigham Young is playing... You might be a Mormon.

If you have to guess more than five times the name of the child you're disciplining... You might be Mormon.

If you automatically assume that BYOB means, Bring Your Own Burgers... You might be Mormon.

If you go to a party and someone spikes the punch with Pepsi.. You might be a Mormon.

If you arrive to an activity an hour late and are the first person there... You might be a Mormon.

TOP 30 INDICATIONS YOU LIVE IN A LIBERAL STAKE:

30. Most of the men have long hair; most of the women have short hair.

29. Members frequently use the term, "international church."

28. The singles' ward has better Home/Visiting Teaching statistics than

the family wards.

27. The flagpole hasn't been painted since Ezra Taft Benson was prophet.

26. The flag hasn't quite made it up the flagpole since Ezra Taft

Benson was prophet.

25. Flag? What flag?

24. No bubble perms on women (or men--see #30).

23. Very few, if any, men are wearing white shirts.

22. Most members of the Bishoprics, High Council, and Stake Presidency

sport facial hair in one form or another.

21. The Relief Society President attends PEC. Every week.

20. There are no lawyers or orthodontists in high-profile leadership

positions.

19. Primary children are permitted to "drum" when singing "Book of

Mormon Stories."

Corollary: Primary children are permitted to shout "Sun-BEAM!"

(You know when.)

18. No "Rush is Right" bumper stickers in the parking lot.

17. No faded "Happiness is Family Home Evening" bumper stickers in the

parking lot.

16. No 1970's-era station wagons or vans in the parking lot, with or

without the aforementioned bumper stickers.

15. None of these aforementioned station wagons or vans can be found at

the neighborhood PriceCostco.

14. The Laurels don't flirt with the missionaries--the Beehives do.

13. No ward picnic on or around July 24.

12. Portraits of past Relief Society presidents are prominently

displayed in the foyer--but no apostles.

11. Nobody in a leadership position uses a Franklin Day Planner.

10. The red punch actually tastes good.

9. The Relief Society doesn't own a lace doily tablecloth.

8. The Stake President is quoted in the local liberal rag.

7. During the weekly announcement from the pulpit, the Ward Magazine

Rep pushes "Sunstone" and "Dialogue."

6. None of the Young Women wear hair bows, floral print dresses, or

lace collars.

5. Ezra Taft Benson is never quoted in any meeting (not even the

"Pride" talk).

4. The Relief Society Presidency all wear Birkenstocks to church on

Sunday.

3. Multi-whole-grain sacrament bread.

2. The General Handbook of Instructions is supporting the broken leg

on the bishop's desk.

1. Members prefer to be called "Mormons" rather than "Latter-day

Saints."

TOP TEN INDICATIONS YOU ARE LIVING IN AN INTELLECTUAL WARD:

10. Your Bishop is just an "Assistant Bishop" until he gets tenure.

9. The YM& YW fireside is the "Book of Abraham Lecture Series."

8. The Homemaking lesson is on the difference between Anthropomorphic and

Theomorphic concepts of diety.

7. Your High Priest Group Leader only quotes from the 1830 edition of the

Book of Mormon because it more accurately reflects the ancient Hebraisms

than the current edition.

6. The ward library is completely stocked with volumes of the Apostolic

Fathers, the Nag Hammadi texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls but you couldn't

find a copy of "What is Real?" to save your life.

5. In order to go from the Gospel Essentials class to Gospel Doctrine

class, each new member has to complete a comprehensive exam, a thesis, and

an oral defense in front of the the Ward Council.

4. The most common name used for naming and blessing children is "Hugh."

3. You wonder which would be easier...learning Spanish so you can

understand the Spanish Gospel Doctrine class or learning Ancient Greek so

you can understand the English Gospel Doctrine class.

2. All testimonies must be given in the original Hebrew.

1. You give your home-teaching lessons out of FARMS "Insights" instead of

the Ensign.

TOP 28 INDICATIONS YOU LIVE IN A "ZORAMITE" STAKE:

28. You know you're at the right stake center because half of the cars

are Mercedes-Benz, and the other half are divided between BMW,

Volvo and Lexus.

27. More bishops are attorneys than non-attorneys.

26. Even the finance clerk drives a nice car.

25. English-speaking members want a Spanish branch more than the

Spanish-speaking members do.

24. Everyone wears a white shirt.

23. The temple is too far away.

22. People quote President Benson's talk on pride in hushed tones so as

not to offend.

21. Long hair is worse than... (name your favorite sin)

20. Hymns are organ solos.

19. Career success is equated to righteousness.

18. Why do they fly foreign flags over foreign temples?

17. Church strength is measured in dollar bills.

16. Mantles, crisping pins, round tires like the moon.

15. Only returned missionaries feel welcome at priesthood meeting.

14. Home teaching statistics are as bad as the singles' ward.

13. The pulpit rises a little higher in our building.

12. "The coarseness of their apparel" only applies to those fuzzy walls.

11. Members talk about how much better they are than their brethren.

10. Returned missionaries don't feel welcome at Relief Society.

9. Self-help books form the basis for most lessons and talks.

8. Missionaries are not known by name even though it is written on

their tags.

7. We don't have any visitors ... except for those people in the back

sometimes.

6. The Stake Supplement to the General Handbook of Instructions is

thicker than the General Handbook.

5. General Conference is one big guilt trip.

4. Musical selections are always well done.

3. Little children don't bear their testimonies--the pulpit is too

high in the air.

2. Hair bows, flower-print dresses, and bubble perm hairdos are not

only the norm, but expected.

1. Members look for liberal stakes to point their fingers at.

[Backroads]

Irishcolleen, on your initial worry of your daughter missing out on opportunities, by all means, be a reasonable and watchful parent to make sure all does seem fair. But know "It's because we're not Mormon, is it?" might not always be the best response.

[Irishcolleen]

But know "It's because we're not Mormon, is it?" might not always be the best response.

LOL, I can see my daughter's cringe, eye-roll combined with "I wish the floor would swallow me" look if I ever said that.

We believe in letting the kids solve their own conflicts. I just don't want her to get hurt. I know I can't protect her from everything. We may dual-enroll her at UVU and homeschool to avoid any potential drama. It is hard to make friends in your last couple years of high school no matter where you move.

[Vort]

LOL, I can see my daughter's cringe, eye-roll combined with "I wish the floor would swallow me" look if I ever said that.

We believe in letting the kids solve their own conflicts. I just don't want her to get hurt. I know I can't protect her from everything. We may dual-enroll her at UVU and homeschool to avoid any potential drama. It is hard to make friends in your last couple years of high school no matter where you move.

As a homeschooler who sends his 17-year-old to the local community college for his senior year, I am the last person to discourage such a course of action. But I would hope the action would not be taken out of fear of rejection at the local high school. I have heard mostly good things about Utah County high schools. Though I'm not a big proponent of the quality of public education, I think it might be worth withholding judgment until offenses actually occur. I think LM's observations were spot-on: You will find people to fill whatever role or niche you may come up with, but that doesn't determine the overall experience. If you go with a positive attitude and a willingness to overlook provincial attitudes (which are common in Utah County, but really not any more common than anywhere else), I bet you will have a very good experience.

[Backroads]

LOL, I can see my daughter's cringe, eye-roll combined with "I wish the floor would swallow me" look if I ever said that.

We believe in letting the kids solve their own conflicts. I just don't want her to get hurt. I know I can't protect her from everything. We may dual-enroll her at UVU and homeschool to avoid any potential drama. It is hard to make friends in your last couple years of high school no matter where you move.

Hah! I think most kids prefer their parents remaining out of conflicts.

Still, I can't help but sense some level of defense on your part. It's like you're expecting all those Utah countiers to come out swinging against you and your daughter. Like Vort said, if sticking your daughter at the college is best, do it. But don't do it out of fear of something that hasn't happened yet.

[Irishcolleen]

We currently homeschool, so continuing to do so wouldn't be a biggie. There aren't as many homeschool resources in Utah as we have here, so that's why I was thinking of dual enrollment. I would be more comfortable with public schooling in Utah than I am here. Our schools are so liberal and they really push immoral attitudes. I just was concerned my girl wouldn't get a fair shake in auditions, etc... I guess her musical ability will overcome any challenges of being a newcomer.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Irishcolleen

[Blackmarch]

We have known for a while that my husband may have to move to Utah for work. We need to make a decision about this in the next few weeks. This forum has taught me that Mormons are nice, normal folks. However, I have heard horror stories about bringing up non-Mormon kids in Utah.

We have 1 daughter at home. She is in high school. She is quite gifted musically (even playing in our community colleges chamber orchestra. We live in one of the largest cities in the country). We are concerned that she may not have the same opportunities in Utah because she is not Mormon. Is there a pecking order where Mormon kids are given preferential treatment regardless of their ability? We don't want to do anything that would hinder her future.

This is the only thing holding us back. We love the mountains and it would be nice to live in an area where people shared our values on morality, modesty, chastity, substance abuse and family.

I appreciate any insights you may have.

I could tell a few myself. as a mormon... although none of it ever involved religion (outside the assumption that religion is supposed to improve an individual's behavior).

you'll find the whole range of behavior in kids (altho to be honest i think there is generally quite a bit less negative behavior as a whole than most other places, i just seem to have the good fortune to run into the dregs of the barrel at school growing up).

Within cliques and groups that form among kids youll have pecking orders based on all sorts of different things. If you are considering homeschooling or private schooling I would highly recommend that route if you and your child have the will and the means to do so.

However at all the schools i've been to i've never saw or heard anything from the faculty and staff that showed any sort of preference or disregard for student's religious views.

[Irishcolleen]

Thank you all for your responses! We still haven't made a decision. If we do end up out there I will do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt. Lord willing we will be blessed with good friends and new experiences.