We can only be saved by Faith?

[Chrissy3818]

Romans 9:16 says " 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.."

---Which to me interprets as it is not your will or what you do that gets you into heaven but God alone.

Romans 9:28 "28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

---If you finish the work you will still fall short in righteousness

Romans 9:30-31 "30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness."

---The gentiles who did not follow righteousness (I am assuming doing righteousness works) they still obtained righteousness because of their faith

----But Israel who did not follow righteousness did not obtain the law of righteousness (I am assuming because they had no faith)

The difference is even though you do righteousness works that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to heaven because you need faith in order to get to heaven. You need faith in the lord Jesus Christ. You can be a perfect Christian, but still not make it to heaven because you don't have faith. Will if you're not a perfect christian, but have faith you'd have a better chance than the christian who has no faith. So Faith is what gets you to heaven. Faith is what saves you.

Am I understanding this correctly?

[Vort]

Salvation is not a chance event. We are used to thinking about things in terms of odds -- "If I wear a bike helmet, there is a slightly increased chance I will crash because the helmet might distract or block my view, but if I DO crash, I have a far better chance of coming out of it with no serious injuries if I'm wearing a helmet, so on the balance, it's better to wear a helmet" -- but such thinking is meaningless when we speak of salvation.

Paul, who wrote the epistle to the Romans, was dealing primarily with two groups of Christians:

1. Jews, who had learned by tradition that the various sacrifices and duties of the law of Moses served to cleanse them and make them holy before God;

2. Gentiles, who had grown up believing that the sacrifices and offerings to the various Roman gods would secure some blessing or another for them.

In both cases, these Christian converts were attempting to graft their old reasoning into the new cloth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They were trying to understand which particular duties (baptism, good works, alms for the poor) were really necessary for them to perform in order to gain the desired blessings. Very mechanistic.

Paul's teaching to these benighted people was simple: All your offerings and efforts and duties performed, all put together, don't amount to a clod of dirt in the eyes of God. Your efforts do not earn your salvation. The very idea is absurd. We are saved, if we are saved, purely by the power of Christ unto salvation. This power is called "grace", because we don't earn it through honest labor -- in such a case, exactly NONE of us would be saved. Rather, it is given as a free gift to ALL those who desire it.

We don't "make it to heaven". It's not a contest or an exam where we need to score better than 89.999% to gain entrance. That model is completely inaccurate. Christ welcomes us into heaven if we have made ourselves the kind of people who want to live forever in heaven. In that case, his blood cleanses us and makes us fit for the privilege.

This is the sense in which we are saved purely by faith, and not at all by works.

However, in our modern society, we have a doctrine that teaches, in essence, "God has created all men, and he will save all men." (Which sounds startlingly like the doctrine of Nehor, perhaps the most spectacularly evil man mentioned in the Book of Mormon.) The key to the universal salvation is that we "confess Christ", and specifically, the non-Biblical version of Christ preached by those who hold to this doctrine. According to this way of thinking, if you confess and accept Christ, you will gain salvation. You need not do any of those petty work-like things, such as helping people. No, once you've gained this free salvation, you may murder, rape, and pillage as you desire, secure in the knowledge that heaven awaits you.

You know, compared to this, the Islamic idea of seventy virgins awaiting those who die in jihad against the infidels sounds positively enlightened.

[Finrock]

Good Morning Chrissy3818. I hope you are having a good day! :)

Nephi says it best, in my view:

"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).

Consider Ephesians as well:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (2:8).

Saved by grace, through faith.

So, I would say that you are correct as long as you understand that faith is a combination of believing in the gospel and then acting on that belief to the best of your ability. But, ultimately we are saved because Jesus Christ atoned for our sins. Without Him our faith is worthless.

Respectfully,

Finrock

Edited February 14, 2013 by Finrock
Spelling and grammar

[Just_A_Guy]

You can be a perfect Christian, but still not make it to heaven because you don't have faith.

In addition to Vort's and Finrock's excellent posts, I would just take issue with this.

Paul's whole point is that you can't be a perfect Christian. You can't keep the law perfectly. It's impossible. King Benjamin does add, in the Book of Mormon, that even if you somehow could keep all the law and wear out your life in God's service, you would still be an unprofitable servant; but I don't know whether Paul goes so far as to make that same point. His point is merely that we can't keep the law fully, and so it tends to condemn us without the atonement of Christ.

[SpiritDragon]

It is completely true doctrine that we are recipients of the grace of Christ through faith and not of works alone. This is because the lord looks on the heart. If we truly come unto Christ and are converted (a powerful change of heart) our love and faith will be manifested by our works. A lot of scripture in the new testament is spent explaining to the jews that they are not saved by the law of moses, but by Jesus Christ. Everyone falls short of perfection in this life, thus none of us can return to our Heavenly King spotless without the cleansing power of the atonement of Christ.

The gospel is laid out in easy to understand steps, but not always so easy to experience. We first need faith that Jesus Christ can and will save us. This faith needs to be strong enough that we are willing to change our ways to be disciples of Christ, this is repentance, a turning to Christ, a change of heart. We also require saving ordinances, but faith and repentance are the continual theme of enduring to the end.

Now I feel the need to clarify my opening statement a little more. You see the scriptures teach us that if we do good grudgingly it is not counted as righteousness. So if we keep the commandments and live in a socially acceptable (within mormon culture) kind of way, but we hate it and despise all the rules and restrictions, we are on shaky ground. We need to have faith in Christ and love Him and understand and feel how His teachings set us free and we will gladly embrace trying to emulate the master, not simply trying to look impressive by keeping up certain standards that we use for for boasting. At the time of Christ and his apostles this was very much the condition of the various church leadership among the children of Israel. They had made the laws out to be the rule and neglected the spiritual growth that accompanied the rules... thus it was crucial for them to understand that they were not saved by keeping the rule of the law to the letter, but by coming to Christ.

Without faith in Jesus Christ we will not reach our potential and fall short of the happiness that His love brings into this life and into the eternities.

[Chrissy3818]

Thanks Guy! Little confusing to understand, but I understand it better than I did yesterday

[rameumptom]

There are two parts to salvation. Faith and repentance are required to be saved or rescued from death and hell. The rest of it is on Christ.

However, our level of salvation is partially determined by our righteousness, or what we become. Faith is an operative action verb in this, because we become righteous, not to save ourselves, but because we have faith Christ can make us holy beings worthy and able to be in God's presence.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

My favorite explanation about the roles of grace and works is by Brad Wilcox.

Speeches

Here are a couple excerpts...to tease you to read or listen to the whole talk:

Christ’s arrangement with us is similar to a mom providing music lessons for her child. Mom pays the piano teacher. How many know what I am talking about? Because Mom pays the debt in full, she can turn to her child and ask for something. What is it? Practice! Does the child’s practice pay the piano teacher? No. Does the child’s practice repay Mom for paying the piano teacher? No. Practicing is how the child shows appreciation for Mom’s incredible gift. It is how he takes advantage of the amazing opportunity Mom is giving him to live his life at a higher level. Mom’s joy is found not in getting repaid but in seeing her gift used—seeing her child improve. And so she continues to call for practice, practice, practice

I have born-again Christian friends who say to me, “You Mormons are trying to earn your way to heaven.”

I say, “No, we are not earning heaven. We are learning heaven. We are preparing for it (see D&C 78:7). We are practicing for it.”

They ask me, “Have you been saved by grace?”

I answer, “Yes. Absolutely, totally, completely, thankfully—yes!”

I have been saved by grace too! And to show my gratitude, I do my best to keep the commandments.

[AnthonyB]

I'm sure I have said this before, LDS and tradition Christians use the same words with differing nuances.

Salvation includes at least three things.

1)Justification -This comes by our faith through grace. It is a gift of God. It is both the removal of negative standing and an impartation of positive standing. TC's tend to place the emphasis of salvation here.

2)Sanctification - Is God work on us and through our efforts to make us holy. It is the ongoing process of refining us in this life. LDS seem to emphasis this area.

3)Glorification- Happens when we die or Jesus return for us, it is the tranforming of us into being capable of being with God.

Now faith is and has to more then mere mental ascent to a set of facts.

For me biblical faith is a personal relational covenant with Jesus. Faith without works is no true faith. Works without faith is utterly futile. Faith that works, faith that tranforms us is true faith. Works cannot save us, faith alone saves. However if your faith is not transforming you, if your faith in Jesus, isn't making more every day into his image then you need to reasses if you have real faith.

[Traveler]

I would point out that it is by the grace of G-d through Jesus Christ that we are saved - not by our faith. Faith will not save us any more than our good works - it is only through Jesus and because of Jesus that we are saved.

I would also point out that anyone that has faith in Jesus Christ will as a matter of their faith do good works and that G-d will bless those of faith for their good works.

My point is that if we would have any additional blessings from G-d beyond being saved by the grace of G-d we will discipline ourselves through our faith in Jesus Christ to do good works - it is as impossible to earn our salvation by faith as it is by good works but through the exercise of our faith through our good works we will earn blessings that others because of their lack of faith being manifested through good works will not merit. This is the reason that the scriptures say that G-d will "judge us" by our works.

The Traveler

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Vort. I hope you are having a good day! :)

No, once you've gained this free salvation, you may murder, rape, and pillage as you desire, secure in the knowledge that heaven awaits you.

First, I am not disagreeing with you.

I agree that the logical conclusion of the "once saved, always saved" philosophy is as you describe. However, I have yet to find a person who believes in "once saved, always saved" who agree that after being "saved" you can in actuality murder, rape, and pillage as you desire without fear of losing salvation. In other words, a person who believes in "once saved, always saved" would likely disagree with your statement. They might contend, for instance, that the person who claims to have been saved but then murders, never was actually saved.

Speculate: Why the disconnect between what the philosophy of "once saved, always saved" logically leads to and what believers seem to accept or believe it entails?

Regards,

Finrock

Edited February 15, 2013 by Finrock
Clarification. Actually I had too many actuals.

[AnthonyB]

Finrock,

Once saved, always saved is part of Calvinist theology. If you start from where they start with there theology it unavoidably follows. It is the P in TULIP.

Total Depravity - We are utterly able to do anything to get right with God

Unconditional Election- God chooses by his will, there are no conditions on our part. The faith we have itself is a gift from God.

Limited Atonement - Jesus atonement was only for the elect not the whole world

Iresistable Grace- If God calls you to be saved, you cannot resist being saved

Perseverance of the Saints- What you term as once saved always saved.

Now I won't defend the above as I have Arminian views. LDS largely fail on the Armininian side of Calivinist/Armininian discusssion. However if you want to understand how people end up believing that, you have to understand the whole framework and presuppositions that Calvinists have not just isolate one particular doctrine out of place in the entire framework.

Anyway there are some scriptures which appear to lend some credence to their view, such as...

Jude 1:24-25

King James Version (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,