What Do You Do When...

[Blessed]

As a member of the Community of Christ, I feel a distinct kinship with my LDS brethern and sisters or I wouldn't be here. I like our views of the truthfulness of the BoM and the admiration of JS, Jr. Granted we don't have some things in common, but we have more than enough for me. Now having said that, my church tends to be more liberal in theology. We don't have a set creed that members or priesthood must adhere to and with that has come some problems. Lately and increasingly we have more and more people from our very own church who think that the BoM is a 19th century literary piece and nothing more. They bash JS saying some very distateful things about him and that the D&C was created to stroke his ego.

Now my question is this... what do you do when someone bashes the BoM or D&C? What do you say? How do have an intelligent yet gentle conversation with people like this?

I am kinda frustrated and saddened, by all of this, and it is affecting my thoughts about where I should have my membership.

[CrimsonKairos]

I guess I'd ask them a pretty basic question.

If the D&C was man-made, then Joseph Smith lied about it being revelations from God. Ditto with the Book of Mormon. Well if Joseph Smith lied about all that, he probably never had any gold plates, never saw an angel named Moroni, and never had any vision in a grove. If that all is true, then why do they belong to a church which is the product of Joseph Smith's revelations and efforts?

Why follow a false prophet?

Now of course I believe Joseph Smith is what he said he was, and that latter-day scriptures are what he said they are. I just don't get why someone who doesn't value him or the fruits of his ministry as a prophet would stay a member of any church related to him.

[Brother Dorsey]

As a member of the Community of Christ, I feel a distinct kinship with my LDS brethern and sisters or I wouldn't be here. I like our views of the truthfulness of the BoM and the admiration of JS, Jr. Granted we don't have some things in common, but we have more than enough for me. Now having said that, my church tends to be more liberal in theology. We don't have a set creed that members or priesthood must adhere to and with that has come some problems. Lately and increasingly we have more and more people from our very own church who think that the BoM is a 19th century literary piece and nothing more. They bash JS saying some very distateful things about him and that the D&C was created to stroke his ego.

Now my question is this... what do you do when someone bashes the BoM or D&C? What do you say? How do have an intelligent yet gentle conversation with people like this?

I am kinda frustrated and saddened, by all of this, and it is affecting my thoughts about where I should have my membership.

Blessed....the problem started in 2000 when NcMurray had the named changed to Community of Christ to attract more fundamental Christians and to become a part of a system of Christian churches to "share the wealth" as it is. In other words it was done for money to keep the church going. It attracted members who didn't have a problem with Christ, but had a problem with the first vision, Joseph Smith and the BoM....of course the Community of Christ church now downplays all three. There is no "Smith" successor to be the Prophet now which was the reason this part of the church split off in the first place. If you study the history of the restoration from 1820 until the martyrdom of JS......you will find that other than plural marriages the LDS church is still practicing the exact same Gospel, the exact same way with minor exceptions which don't effect our salvation....on the other hand...study the CCoC history and you will see a huge change over the years.....then you have to really ask yourself.....would the Lord change his church this much? I was always taught that he is never changing and the LDS church is the same as when Christ walked the earth....when JS was alive and even now...it hasn't changed.....the RCofJCofLDS or CofC has changed, dramatically to please the people of the world....soon you will see.....the BoM and JS will no longer be spoken of in the CoC churches....if you go to their website you can see very very little reference to it and only then in the history of the church...nothing is mentioned about the BoM or JS in any of the current info on the church. If you believe that JS had the first vision, if you believe the BoM to be true scripture then....I beg you to investigate the LDS church.....The Lord has always been the head of his church...and he never changes any of the requirements for salvation.....think about it!

[prisonchaplain]

Bro. Dorsey & Blessed, do either of you forsee that the Community of Christ, like the Worldwide Church of God (Herbert W. Armstrong's movement), might eventually transition into a mainstream evangelical denomination?

[a-train]

Yo

I've lived here in the KC metro area for 17 years, and have had over that time, friends in the RLDS church and other non-LDS folks that believe in the Restoration. At one point in high-school, (when I lived in Independence) I had a Bishop in my ward who had served as a priesthood holder in the RLDS church before being baptized LDS. In fact, many LDS members here were once RLDS. All of those I have had the oppurtunity to talk with about their coming over to LDS said that the changes being made and the subsequent divisions in the church made them question the whole matter until they were convinced to become LDS.

There was an old LDS Independence Visitors Center President who passed away in a plane crash with his wife after his release in the 90's. He once told me and a small group at the Visitors Center that he hosted Spencer W. Kimball to the Independence Square when he was President of the LDS Church. He mentioned that Kimball wanted to visit the various Churches on the square. They went to the Temple Lot church and met with a couple of guys who were called Apostles and they also went over to the RLDS Church. He told us that Kimball had already known the current RLDS President Wallace B. Smith and so they had warm friendly conversations. (Kimball was grandson of Heber C. Kimball of the original Quorum of the Twelve, and Smith was the great grandson of Joseph Smith Jr., the Prophet.)

At that time, the construction of the Temple on the Square had been announced, but was yet in the design phase. The Visitors Center President told us that he was in the room for a jokingly made conversation between Smith and Kimball. Wherein, Kimball asked Smith if he was planning on performing ordinances such as endowments and so forth. Smith replied: "We figured we'd leave all that up to you guys." (paraphrased) Kimball then said: "Your great grandad used to write about that stuff, you should read it sometime." (paraphrased) The Visitors Center President told us they all laughed and the two Leaders shook hands and were quite complementary.

I say all this because I personally (and I believe the vast majority of other LDS people) have an intrinsic love for the posterity of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. and all those of the various groups who believe in the Restoration and I believe it illustrates the relationship between LDS and RLDS as loving, friendly, and non-judgemental. I can feel your pain when you hear the conflicting and offensively toned words of doubt. Worse is the sound of know-it-alls who "set at naught, [God's] counsels." (Helaman 12:6) These teach "for doctrines, the commandments of men" (Matt 15:9) Remember, they are the LORD's children, not ours. We can only act as messengers, testifiers; we cannot do the convincing. That is the Holy Ghost's work.

For those who bash the BoM or D&C, we must not 'bash' with them. Remember "the devil is the father of contention" (3Nephi 11:29) and "he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh." (Ether 4:8) If the LORD won't show them, can we do it? Can we force His hand anymore than we can stay it? We must bear our witness and remember the LORD will do His work with them.

The only way any one of us can know if the Bible, The BoM, The D&C, or anything for that matter is true is by asking "God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:4-5)

We cannot convince anyone of the truth of the gospel, latter-day prophecy, or the validity of the scriptures from antiquity, we can only bear our testimony. All men everywhere must repent and ask in faith and then and only then will they receive a witness of the truth. This is the pattern established from the beginning and it will not change. So don't contend, but exhort to pray. We must all PRAY! "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Matt 7:7) So tell them unless we, each of us obtain a revelation of the LORD personally, we will remain in the dark. And, proclaim the word of the Lord, not your own. In other words "unfold the scriptures"(Alma 12:1) that they may be "laid before"(Alma 30:44) them and let the Lord speak to them.

God Speed

-a-train

PS sorry so long, and sorry I don't have an RLDS BoM to give the different verse references.

[Dale]

I am also Community of Christ. I read alout of material that argues the Book of Mormon can only be viewed as 19th century. FARMS & FAIR have some useful material to handle the Book of Mormon historicity issues. Perhaps you should get a name & address & pass them along. Find out the objection and try to find research that answers the objection. Arguing with someone who doubts doesn't help them or you. The best hope is to try & get them stuff that persuades them in the area they are doubting.

I am like LDS scholar Blake Ostler in seeing the Book of Mormon as a modern exapansion of an ancient text. I see things 19nth century in the Book of Mormon. One item is recall is Arminianism in the Book of Mormon.

Polygamy information even among LDS persons can cause a lot of disrespect for Joseph Smith. I have had many experience with LDS who are as troubled by some of Joseph Smith's history as we can be.

I support the Community of Christ logo. The larger church name is way to long to say. I met a Pastor this morning and I told him what my church name was. As he hangs out at the restaurant I go to I am sure we will have time later to probe the supposed depths of the heresies of my religion.

I am ex-LDS turned Community of Christ. Last night I was reading Ex-RLDs Carol Hanson's Reorganized Latter Day Saint Church: Is It Christian on reputed D.& C. problems.

[the_jason]

Contention is of the devil. It does no good to return the bashing to them. When faced with a situation like that, the best action to take is to simply bear your testimony and walk away. No other alternative will help the situation.

[Blessed]

Thanks for all your responses. Interestingly enough, I have tried all of them. The response was they insulted my intelligence and testimony. The only comfort I have is I know in my heart one day the Whole Truth will be revealed and they will have to answer to not only to God, but to Mormon, Moroni, Abinidai, and so on. :0)

[Dale]

The only reason LDS don't have such problems in LDS services is that they have a controlled curriculum. Nothing, but what generally agrees with what is church doctrine is tolerated in church classes. So the many LDS that might bash the Book of Mormon, the D.&C. or Joseph Smith have to find private places like the internet to vent. I have seen quite a number of persons surprised by liberal Mormon history tidbits to make me think LDS arn't getting basic stuff at church. I have read testimonies of sincere persons so surprised by information they did not get in Sunday school that they give up on belief.

One of my friends is a convert to the LDS for three years. She has been genuinely surprised at some of the trivia stuff non-LDS were throwing her way. I am into pro-Community of Christ apologetics, and pro-LDS stuff and was able to give her a lot of possible answers to choose from. But she expressed frustration about not being able to find the needed information at church. Without FAIR an LDS apologetics group I wouldn't have much information for her.

I think persons being skeptical of the scriptures, Joseph Smith isn't a problem. I like aspects of his prophetic ministry more than others. But I see persons as needing to learn to express skepticism in a non-threatening way. Jeff Burton has an online book entitled For Those Who Wonder designed to help LDS struggling with skeptical issues. I think getting paperback copies of the book and starting small groups to study the book might help your situation. I forget the link to his website.

[a-train]

Remember, those that won't "endure sound doctrine" (2 Tim 4:3) will get nothing from the LORD. Those that resist it "will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh." (Ether 4:8) Don't blame yourself, you didn't fail. The stiffnecked killed the prophets, crucified the LORD, and will not take to prayer, but look to the doctrines of men (currently called science, archeology, etc.). The LORD's "spirit shall not always strive with man."(Gen 6:3)

Man often buys into the idea that he has achieved an irrefutable level of knowledge, it is in this prideful state that great folly is brought about. Many today look at the scientific knowledge base at our fingertips and the laughable errors of human past and imagine we are now outside the need of God's intervention of revelation. They disregard the scriptures as fables, moral encouragement at best. In so many years men will replace many modern concepts with still newer ones and thus man is "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim 3:7)

After Nicodemus expressed his final statement of disbelief: "How can these things be?"(John 3:9) the Saviour asked: "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) He proclaimed the Gospel and said "he that believeth not is condemned already".(John 3:18)

And what is the condemnation? They remain in "darkness", "for every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light". (John 3:19-20) Thus the LORD withdraws and ultimately darkness prevails.

For "whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." (Matt 13:12)

God Bless

-a-train

[rosie321]

I have to remember there will always be opposition in all things. Not everyone will accept.

Seek to understand what they are asking and what their purpose is. Then go from there. Some people can never be diffused. Others will always disagree and understand why. Other people just lack knowledge and speak in ignorant passion.

Stand strong. Have faith. If God is on your side then what do you have to fear? Let the spirit speak to your heart. Words cannot destroy you however Unfaithfulness to known truth can.

Respectful, gentle humor goes along way.

We are required to love and forgive all men. I think of Christ on the cross when He said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

This moment to shall pass...... the deliverance of the Lord is nigh. :)

also pray for those....

Saul and Paul used to be among the people against the church and look what God was able to do with him much to the astonishment of other church leaders of his day

I meant Saul who later became known as Paul

[rosie321]

Sometimes too humanity creeps in , I cut loose and then I have to humbly go to Heavenly Father and ask for His direction, wisdom and forgiveness and to the person if I've gone beyond what I feel I should have.

[Serg]

I guess I'd ask them a pretty basic question.

If the D&C was man-made, then Joseph Smith lied about it being revelations from God. Ditto with the Book of Mormon. Well if Joseph Smith lied about all that, he probably never had any gold plates, never saw an angel named Moroni, and never had any vision in a grove. If that all is true, then why do they belong to a church which is the product of Joseph Smith's revelations and efforts?

Why follow a false prophet?

Now of course I believe Joseph Smith is what he said he was, and that latter-day scriptures are what he said they are. I just don't get why someone who doesn't value him or the fruits of his ministry as a prophet would stay a member of any church related to him.

Well its not that simple.

There are some intellectuals in our Church that do believe(and I find no problem with it), that teh BoM was mostly affected by JS's contemporary ambience, thought , etc... That doesnt make it a lie. Just like symbols arent lies because they dont portray what actually is they only portray. Put it like this:

Scripture says that streets in heaven are made of gold. We die, and find that there are neither streets in Heaven to say the least of any gold. Did Scriptures lie? Well it may be contended, they did portray wrongly the true nature of a thing x. But then again, Scripture is not purposedly developed to make us know certainties of literal knowledge. It is more valueable as a means of knwoing God than as a source of knowing Him...I dont know if i am being coherent.

Its a complex issue that of considering scripture a dynamic interaction between man and god. Suffice be to say, pelase, that to call the BoM a mostly 19 century composition doesnt go to assert that lie is at play or that we shouldnt admire Smith as prophet(more than composer).

It si an issue that we may do good to retake in a whole thread,

[the_jason]

Scripture says that streets in heaven are made of gold. We die, and find that there are neither streets in Heaven to say the least of any gold.

How do you know? Have you died yet?

[Dale]

I see things 19th century in the Book of Mormon, but ancient characteristics also. I see enough evidence for the text I affirm it's historicity. I have seen these evidences & the Book of Mormon survive some pretty educated, and uneducated intellectual challenges.

With us Community of Christ members doubts about Joseph Smith and polygamy caused us to doubt the Nauvoo related content of the D.&C.. Considering our belief polygamy was wrong that's understandable. But some try & suggest he was a polygamist in Kirtland. Because of that some start thinking he wasn't merely a fallen prophet, but never fell from such a high place.

Without hearing their specific objections to the Book of Mormon, or D.&C. it's hard to suggest an answer.

Some scholars want us to confess everything important to our heritage is made up. They will argue based on differering First Vision accounts that Joseph Smith started out as a modalist, and invented seeing the Father later. This kind of revisionism is bad for the LDS, and Community of Christ churches. I find with my history books that scholarship is to history, what apologetics is for a religion.

[purpleplayingpenguin]

I think it's best to just bear your testimony. They may respond with some biting comment but just ignore them. They just don't understand.