Is G-d omnipotent?

[Interiorly]

Its quite simple. Would you like to know? :)

[JeepMoab]

God is what we want him to be.

Personally, I haven't met him, but I am sure you upstanding folks would know him and wouldn't mind introducing me.

What would you like to know about Him? I know Him on a personal level but we've never met face to face...yet.

[Traveler]

What would you like to know about Him? I know Him on a personal level but we've never met face to face...yet.

Is it more important to keep all of his commandments or to know him on a personal level? Also since you know him on a personal level is there anything about him that you do not quite understand or is in any way mysterious to you?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

We don't do 20% and he comes down and makes up the difference, that's absurd.

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. What percentage of my own resurrection do I do myself, 100%?

[Traveler]

It has been said earlier that God is not so much powerful as other things, it being alluded to that Power is a concentric thing instead of a dispersion thing. This idea comes mainly from the perspective that the rich, powerful and influential persons in society are also selfish and destructive to the "good people". Power is not egotistical. Just as in the first part of the presentation of the endowment all things go where they can grow and increase themselves. Power included. There are tons of parables about this too. Money will not go where money can't grow. Sickness will not grow where it can not grow. Power, love, compassion, mercy, luck, industry, compassion, fear, goldfish and wild flowers will NOT go where they can not increase themselves.

If you are without something it is simply because you will not grow it. Simple. Intense wishing, desire and the furry of entitlement can never change that; especially a sense of being wronged. If you villanize power, wealth or influence you will never have it no matter now bi-polar your opinion of it is.

God's reward to us is on the same grounds as his reward to himself. He is, after all, no respecter of persons, including himself. Salvation is of faith that it might be by grace so that the ends of the promise might be sure to all the seed. It had to be free, how else would it be obtained? Free does not mean on sale or for ANY price. We don't do 20% and he comes down and makes up the difference, that's absurd. The grace and condescension of God, his Infinite and Eternal Atonement is just all that. He comes 100% of the way all of the time. God is not sitting on a throne on some planet next to Kolob any less than he is sitting in the chair next to you, your friend and loved one :) It is all on faith. If you thought you exercised faith and didn't receive it was simply because what you thought faith in God was really was not :). He makes the rules and the one law that governs them all is Faith. Otherwise our sense of lack and distance puts doubt in us and with that doubt confidence is lost. :)

I am not sure I agree with what you are saying. I do not think the life of Jesus Christ on earth is the example of how to consolidate ultimate or omnipotent power in order to dominate and control the universe. On the contrary - it appears to me that he fully intends that those that follow him do things even "greater" than what he did. Then in the second place - it appears to me that his gospel is more about service than power. The reason I am concerned is because it does appear to me that G-d really is not about power or that power is a main focus of his attributes. In fact, power appears to me to be a prime concern of Satan and the natural fallen man.

The Traveler

[JeepMoab]

Is it more important to keep all of his commandments or to know him on a personal level? Also since you know him on a personal level is there anything about him that you do not quite understand or is in any way mysterious to you?

The Traveler

Those who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are forgiven. So, the most important part of being a Christian is living like one- having a personal relatiopnship with Him. Reading and obeying the Bible is how we do that. No matter how long we live all of us will sin until we die. Most of us will sin every day and sometimes multiple times a day. That doesn't mean we aren't Christians but that we are human. We are controlled by a sin-nature- we simply can't help but sin. God knew that and that is why a perfect sacrifice had to be offered for our sins. One who had no sin was the only payment acceptable to a Holy, Righteous and Perfect God. Thus Jesus came into the world. When you consider religion note that all of them are about the teachings of the man/men who founded it. Christianity is vastly different than that. It is about the man, Jesus Christ. The word Jesus means 'God's salvation'. The word Christ means 'God's annointed One or Chosen One'. Jesus is God's chosen one for the world today. When we take our eyes off Jesus is when we begin to fall backwards or are unable to stay pure in heart. Or, if we don't know Him it is equally impossible to be moral people- morality only comes from God (not man).

Edited April 17, 2013 by JeepMoab

[Vort]

Those who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are forgiven.

This is not in dispute. Rather, the problem is understanding how one accepts Jesus as his or her Lord and Savior. What does this mean? And the kingdom of God teaches us that it means being baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and then living that life, making further covenants as the time is right, pursing that journey a step at a time.

[JeepMoab]

This is not in dispute. Rather, the problem is understanding how one accepts Jesus as his or her Lord and Savior. What does this mean? And the kingdom of God teaches us that it means being baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and then living that life, making further covenants as the time is right, pursing that journey a step at a time.

That is what the LDS church teaches. But in Christianity no one has to be a member of any church to be a Christian. Remember, no church existed at the time John came preaching repentance and forgiveness. Salvation by repentance and grace came first then baptism then the church was organized. Also, baptism has been given a sort of bad rap. No where in the Bible does it teach that baptism is required for salvation. In fact, Jesus never baptized anyone the Bible says. Paul said he wasn't sent to baptize and only baptised a few of the thousands he preached to.

Edited April 17, 2013 by JeepMoab

[selek]

That is what the LDS church teaches. But in Christianity no one has to be a member of any church to be a Christian.

<TWEEET!!!!> Flag on the play.

Jeep, you're begging the question.

That may be true in your particular brand of "Christianity", but you have neither the right nor the authority to define what "true Christianity" is.

With your statement above, you are committing a number of errors in logic, not the least of which is engaging in circular logic.

In fact, Jesus never baptised anyone the Bible says.

And yet the Bible is equally explicit that there are many things which the Savior did which are not recorded.

You are arguing that lack of evidence is evidence of lack- yet another error in logic.

Paul said he wasn't sent to baptise and only baptised a few of the thousands he preached to.

Yet Paul DID baptize- and so, too, did the rest of Christ's apostles, disciples, and students.

Again, you are attempting to argue that because it was not Paul's priority it must not have been important.

This overlooks a number of things, not the least of which is the fact that Christ considered the sacrament of baptism so important that he himself submitted to it- going so far as to command his reluctant servant to perform the ordinance despite his misgivings.

The essential problem here (despite your posturing to the contrary) is that you are trying to wrest the Scriptures to conform to your practices, rather than the other way around.

You claim that you practice "true Christianity" and insist that God has preserved your "perfect" form of worship down through history (and in particular, by preserving the Bible in perfect accuracy).

You claim that it must be so or God ceases to be God.

Yet you ignore the fact that your "Bible" is markedly different from not only what the original Saints and disciples possessed, but was also deliberately altered from the original "canon" that stood for over a thousand years.

Thus far, your appeals- however high-minded- have been little more than appeals to sectarian preference and special-pleading.

You presume to lecture us that God's writ does not change- yet ignore the fact that your own version of that same writ is itself only 500 years old, and your particular sect less than half that.

[JeepMoab]

<TWEEET!!!!> Flag on the play.

Jeep, you're begging the question.

That may be true in your particular brand of "Christianity", but you have neither the right nor the authority to define what "true Christianity" is.

I'm only saying what historic Christianity has always taught. Look it up online- I'm sure anyone can find it. No, it's not what the LDS church teaches but then the LDS church has said they have no part of affiliation with any other religion. And they owe their beliefs to none of them. They said, "We disclaim the whole of them (JM add- them means all other religions); claim no 'affinity' to any of them" (JoD 11:218). Then in the HoC Index volume, pg. 63 it says this under 'Christianity', "devil is hope of salvation of, V5:218". In HoC 5:218 it says this, "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world."

So I thought my definition of Christianity was 'devil worship' to the LDS (since the church put it in their history and gave sermons to that effect) and wouldn't be offensive or insulting to any LDS. No offense was intended. But I find your church's words to be very offensive. And, I'm just stating the facts as the LDS church taught, recorded/printed and published them.

[Just_A_Guy]

No where in the Bible does it teach that baptism is required for salvation. In fact, Jesus never baptized anyone the Bible says.

(Ahem.)

(Also: here.)

(I'm deliberately omitting John 3:5, acknowledging that some argue that the "birth of water" mentioned here is literal childbirth, not baptism.)

Edited April 17, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[selek]

I'm only saying what historic Christianity has always taught.

Again, you are begging the question- and doing so in a most unserious fashion.

"Historic Christianity" is not- and never has been- a cultural, ideological, or theological monolith.

For you to pretend that they have ever "spoken with one voice"- let alone that you are qualified to act as the spokesman and arbiter for all of Christianity is to travel beyond absurd into inane.

You have not addressed a single criticism made to your arguments, but instead keep falling back on a rote appeal to authority.

That is not discussion, but dogmatism.

Look it up online- I'm sure anyone can find it.

It must really be nice to have one's reality defined by a car insurance commercial.

Unfortunately, people put things on the internet all the time which simply are not true. That you credulously repeat them does not make them les false simply because you wish them to be.

No, it's not what the LDS church teaches but then the LDS church has said they have no part of affiliation with any other religion. And they owe their beliefs to none of them. They said, "We disclaim the whole of them (JM add- them means all other religions); claim no 'affinity' to any of them" (JoD 11:218). Then in the HoC Index volume, pg. 63 it says this under 'Christianity', "devil is hope of salvation of, V5:218". In HoC 5:218 it says this, "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world."

As has already been explained to you, neither the Journal of Discourses nor the History of the Church is a doctrinal source.

They do not represent the official doctrines, theology, or opinions of the Church and are not considered authoritative sources by any credible scholar or investigator.

For you to persist in misrepresenting them as such after you have been corrected is prima facia evidence that you are not here to learn, but to incite.

Not to discuss but to propagandize.

So I thought my definition of Christianity was 'devil worship' to the LDS (since the church put it in their history and gave sermons to that effect) and wouldn't be offensive or insulting to any LDS.

The deceit is compounded when you cherry pick verses, pluck them out of context, and misrepresent both their circumstances and message in order to advance a peculiar agenda. The sentence above is a case-in-point.

No offense was intended.

Given your persistence in misrepresenting, twisting, and maligning LDS theology, organization, and worshippers, I do not believe you.

But I find your church's words to be very offensive. And, I'm just stating the facts as the LDS church taught, recorded/printed and published them.

No- you are deliberately and vilely misrepresenting the words of good men to advance your own sectarian agenda.

The difference between what you are doing- and what you pretend to be doing- is stark and profound.

Your intellectually dishonest is obvious.

Edited April 17, 2013 by selek

[ElectofGod]

I jumped in this at the middle so I hope I am not reading anything wrong. I apologize if I am.

So I thought my definition of Christianity was 'devil worship' to the LDS (since the church put it in their history and gave sermons to that effect) and wouldn't be offensive or insulting to any LDS. No offense was intended. But I find your church's words to be very offensive. And, I'm just stating the facts as the LDS church taught, recorded/printed and published them.

The truth offends. Jesus Christ was killed for teaching the truth. Why because the Jews didn't like it. They believed the bible, they believed in moses but when the truth was in their face they killed the truth, Jesus is the truth.

In the last days he warned.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

When shall Christ come again? He answers that question. Take heed you are not deceived for many will say I am Christ. Otherwards there will be many false religions, false teachers, prophets. He warns all of them. All men should take note and determine if they are. Even those in the LDS faith should.

They should measure the word against Christ and see if its good. All things that point to Chirst are of him. It is up to us to determine what that is. Through prayer and the holy ghost we can find that truth.

Further he continues.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Again he warns in the last days mens heart shall fail them. They shall become offended. Thats the truth these days. Everyones offended over everything. They sue due to offense, due to greed, due to trying to be right about everything (2 Timothy prophecy).

Than it continues, many are deceived, but the kingdom has not come yet. What must occur? "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness" Who is going to do that preaching if his church does not exist upon the earth? God must have setup a church before he comes that does this. There are very few religions that do this.

The truth can only be known through the Holy Ghost. Search the scriptures. Find it. Pray to find it and that each of us (all should pray for this) will not be deceived. Than read the book or mormon and determine if its a truth or a lie of deception by Satan. Many will say "lo here, lo here is christ". Determine who really is of Christ. Truth offends it always has. It caused his disiples to be killed. They called the jews wicked who thought they were righteous. They believed in the bible! They practiced it and lived by every word which is why Christ chastised them.

The LDS church is the only church that has any scripture besides the bible. Its true or its not. Find out. You won't find out just by reading the history of the church. If you want to find a perfect church you won't in this World. Christs church was not perfect when he lived. Jonah wasn't perfect. His apostles were not perfect. Moses through anger destroyed the plates thus losing the chance for the promise land. No man or church will be perfect. But there is still a church that is directed under the hands of Jesus Christ himself. He directs it just like he did when he was alive, through living apostles.

The savior lives, he speaks, the power to heal, the power to bless, the power to do all things Christ did is present again. The Church of Jesus Christ is evidence of this. Why look ye for only things that offends or that is in error instead of looking to see if the fruit is there? Will ye destroy a tree because it bears good fruit due to a few rotten fruit on the tree?

Edited April 17, 2013 by ElectofGod

[bytebear]

I'm only saying what historic Christianity has always taught. Look it up online- I'm sure anyone can find it. No, it's not what the LDS church teaches but then the LDS church has said they have no part of affiliation with any other religion. And they owe their beliefs to none of them. They said, "We disclaim the whole of them (JM add- them means all other religions); claim no 'affinity' to any of them" (JoD 11:218). Then in the HoC Index volume, pg. 63 it says this under 'Christianity', "devil is hope of salvation of, V5:218". In HoC 5:218 it says this, "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world."

So I thought my definition of Christianity was 'devil worship' to the LDS (since the church put it in their history and gave sermons to that effect) and wouldn't be offensive or insulting to any LDS. No offense was intended. But I find your church's words to be very offensive. And, I'm just stating the facts as the LDS church taught, recorded/printed and published them.

Oh, I so disagree. The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are completely omitted from your equation. They were the authorities until the Protestant reformation. Your brand of Christianity is hardly ancient, and hardly mirrors that of the ancient forms of Christianity.

[Traveler]

Those who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are forgiven.

Hmmmm: When Jesus was dying on the cross did he not forgive those that did not accept him?

So, the most important part of being a Christian is living like one- having a personal relatiopnship with Him. Reading and obeying the Bible is how we do that.

Another Hmmmmmm: If you believe the Bible - I believe it says (by quoting Jesus) that we must obey the commandments. and that if someone was to say that they know G-d (have a personal relationship) and do not keep the commandments that they are a liar and should not be believed. I submit that keeping the commandments is more important than a personal relationship.

No matter how long we live all of us will sin until we die. Most of us will sin every day and sometimes multiple times a day. That doesn't mean we aren't Christians but that we are human. We are controlled by a sin-nature- we simply can't help but sin.

Another Hmmmmmmm: So much for being born of the spirit and being one with G-d and Matt 5:48) You do realize your are contradicting the Bible and the teaching of Christ?

God knew that and that is why a perfect sacrifice had to be offered for our sins. One who had no sin was the only payment acceptable to a Holy, Righteous and Perfect God. Thus Jesus came into the world. When you consider religion note that all of them are about the teachings of the man/men who founded it. Christianity is vastly different than that. It is about the man, Jesus Christ.

Interesting to see you admit - that as man is Jesus Christ once was. You do know that this is a doctrine of the LDS for which some love to criticize us a lot for believing - I would be very careful in teaching that doctrine - many Traditional Christians will accuse you of belonging to a cult and all kinds for things.

The word Jesus means 'God's salvation'. The word Christ means 'God's annointed One or Chosen One'. Jesus is God's chosen one for the world today. When we take our eyes off Jesus is when we begin to fall backwards or are unable to stay pure in heart. Or, if we don't know Him it is equally impossible to be moral people- morality only comes from God (not man).

I submit that Satan has a personal relationship with G-d and that if G-d ever commands him to do something (like get behind him) that Satan will comply. How is your understanding of a personal relationship more acceptable to G-d than the devils that believe in and know of him?

I submit that believing in G-d is not what is important - Keeping the commandments is what is important. What bothers me about many so called Christians today - is that they think the LDS are trying to earn their way to heaven by keeping the commandments? Why would anyone that believes in Christ diminish in any way anyone trying to keep the commandments of Jesus? Would you identify yourself with a church that taught such a thing? - for the record - I wouldn't

The Traveler

[Guest]

For the record, Jeep won't be answering.

[Traveler]

...

The truth offends. Jesus Christ was killed for teaching the truth. Why because the Jews didn't like it.

....

Just one little point - Jesus was a Jew and so were all his apostles and followers up until Peter was commanded to teach non-Jews.

What is very interesting to me is that Jesus never criticized any religion but his own. We do find that throughout the Bible that the religion of Baal was also criticized - Having studied the ancient mythology of Baal - I can certainly see why that specific religion was singled out for criticism.

the Traveler

[Blackmarch]

In the debate of determinism verses free will there is a related concept that is often over looked. That is the omnipotence of G-d. This is related to the free will verses determinism debate. This came to me from another thread in another part of the forum when a poster (non-LDS) stated that G-d’s omnipotence excludes counter or exclusive things - like the omnipotence of G-d does not deal with G-d creating a stone he cannot lift. But I realized that there are exclusive things that if G-d is omnipotent cannot also exist or be.

Thus my question is - If G-d has granted, given or allows any power to man -- for example free will, then G-d no longer is all powerful - that in truth there is power outside of G-d that determines things he cannot. If man has free will then it proves that there is power outside of G-d to determine something. Therefore G-d is not omnipotent (all powerful) if man is free to determine his own fate.

The Traveler

Omnipotent translates as all powerful or the ability to do all things. If he has the power to give men their free will he has the power to take it away. It does not mean he will do all things.

Also i'd like to point out that many overlook the fact that the term "all" in relationship to a physical universe will have a limit at some point. People also fudge the terms can and will many times as well.

for example if we were to have a microscopically small universe where the actions a,b,x,z were the only things possible, then actions c,d,e... etc, would be an impossibility and omnipotence (or "all") would only include a,b,x,z.

Within the set that is our universe man is only free to choose from among the options that God has placed before him, god has already determined the consequences by setting up how the options play out when they are taken.

[Traveler]

Omnipotent translates as all powerful or the ability to do all things. If he has the power to give men their free will he has the power to take it away. It does not mean he will do all things.

When I started this thread I hoped that people would think about terms, what those terms really mean throughout the entire spectrum of what G-d is and think about if we are dealing with an actual attribute of G-d or something made up by man.

There is a problem, in my mind with this sentence "If he has the power to give men their free will he has the power to take it away". My point is that if G-d really gave man free will then he cannot take it away - if he did retract then the granting of free will was not real but a pretense and in truth the power of free will never was really granted but remained the entire time with G-d.

But what I believed happened is that G-d gave a warning - not that he would take away free will but that in our quest to become free we could misuse our acquired freedoms and be taken into bondage - becoming a slave to the very quest we thought to make us free.

If this is the case then G-d did not grant us our will and the principles of free will are in reality independent of G-d. Just as the principles of mathematics are independent of a master mathematician that has offered to teach us mathematics.

Also i'd like to point out that many overlook the fact that the term "all" in relationship to a physical universe will have a limit at some point. People also fudge the terms can and will many times as well.

for example if we were to have a microscopically small universe where the actions a,b,x,z were the only things possible, then actions c,d,e... etc, would be an impossibility and omnipotence (or "all") would only include a,b,x,z.

excellent

Within the set that is our universe man is only free to choose from among the options that God has placed before him, god has already determined the consequences by setting up how the options play out when they are taken.

This is an interesting idea. We can see this kind of thing as a training ground - like training wheels on a child's bicycle - giving some opportunity to learn with the goal of someday being able to ride without the training wheels.

The Traveler