Is Joseph Smith another Messiah?

[Guest]

To me that would be savior with a small "s", and means something totally different than being Savior (with a big "S"), with whom I would never presume to equate myself.

[Anddenex]

Agreed. Context is very important.

[Blackmarch]

To me that would be savior with a small "s", and means something totally different than being Savior (with a big "S"), with whom I would never presume to equate myself.

In many aspects our relationship to Christ is like a tree; we are the branches, while he is the trunk. (Supposing we are being faithful)

[Guest]

I believe that He said that He is the vine, and we are the branches. :) That doesn't make us vines.

[Blackmarch]

I believe that He said that He is the vine, and we are the branches. :) That doesn't make us vines.

It does not, but its from the branches where the fruit is obtained.

[Guest]

And without the vine the branches would wither and could do nothing.

[Vort]

As long as we're stretching metaphors well past their intended meanings, I'll point out that the vine and the branches are made of the same substance, and that in fact the difference between the two is not always well-defined.

[Guest]

I'm not stretching. I'm paraphrasing scripture:

John 15:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

[AnthonyB]

Phill 2 1-4 If you’ve gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care— then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don’t push your way to the front; don’t sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don’t be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand.

5-8 Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human!Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion.

9-11 Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father

What God the Father may fully make of any of us eventually may well be beyond our full current understanding but whatever that maybe, I personally can't help feel that the more like Jesus we are the higher God will raise us.

Edited April 25, 2013 by AnthonyB

[Finrock]

Good morning Eowyn. I hope your morning has started out well!:)

They are.

To me, the ideas are glorious and beautiful but I can understand why you and others might feel that they are blasphemous because it somehow appears that I am making myself equal with God.

I know that without God I am nothing. Without God we are just objects in space. But, there is a God and we are His children and that is what makes all of the difference.

What makes the difference to me is that it is not a carnal desire to be equal with God because it is God who desires that I be equal with Him. He has commanded that I be equal with Him (Be perfect, even as God is perfect). He wants me to have His power in order for me to do good (to bring about His work and His glory). He is willing to give me (and I believe all those who desire it) everything that He has as soon as I am ready to receive it. As soon as I am ready to receive it.

I am not God the Father. I am not Jesus Christ. However, when we abide in Christ, we abide in the Godhead. We receive God's power. We become a part of the glorious work of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Here is the key: When we are acting within our authority, under God's direction, by His power, and for His glory, it is as if God Himself were acting.

D&C 1:38

"What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

Further, Jesus has said:

"I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one" (D&C 35:2).

We can be one with God, just as Christ was one with the Father. If we are one with Christ, are we not then Christ? Are we not then a part of the Godhead? It seems to be that the plain and precious truth of these scriptures testify that this is true. I believe it.

Having said what I've said, if you believe my words are blasphemous then I will cease to discuss it so as to respect the forum rules.

Regards,

Finrock

[Anddenex]

We can be one with God, just as Christ was one with the Father. If we are one with Christ, are we not then Christ? Are we not then a part of the Godhead? It seems to be that the plain and precious truth of these scriptures testify that this is true. I believe it.

Having said what I've said, if you believe my words are blasphemous then I will cease to discuss it so as to respect the forum rules.

Regards,

Finrock

I will answer the first question, "are we not then Christ?" No, we are not Christ. We are still his servants.

"Are we not part of the Godhead?" No, not in the interpretation being provided (I freely admit, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are implying here).

Example, A King has many subjects. These subjects love their King. They love their King so much, they do all he has commanded. They even begin to understand his heart and mind, such that the King could say, "We are of one heart and mind, and what I would do you would do, you would do nothing contrary to my will."

The question, have these servants become the King then? No, they are not the King, they are like their King, but they are not their King.

As we become one with our King, and the Godhead, we are still not the King, and we are still not the Godhead.

However, this is part of the reason why discussion is necessary. The ability to weigh thoughts, and decide for ourselves.

[Finrock]

Good morning Anddenex. Thanks for the reponse. I hope you're having a good day! :)

I will answer the first question, "are we not then Christ?" No, we are not Christ. We are still his servants.

"Are we not part of the Godhead?" No, not in the interpretation being provided (I freely admit, maybe I am misunderstanding what you are implying here).

To me, the plain interpretation of being one with Christ, even as Christ is one with the Father, means we become Christ and we become a part of the Godhead. I believe that the same interpretation of becoming one with the Father that applies to the Son, because of the Son, also applies to us.

To me it is plain, but I respect your understanding of that scripture and other than what I have already stated, I will not argue against your understanding.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

Good morning Anddenex. Thanks for the reponse. I hope you're having a good day! :)

To me, the plain interpretation of being one with Christ, even as Christ is one with the Father, means we become Christ and we become a part of the Godhead. I believe that the same interpretation of becoming one with the Father that applies to the Son, because of the Son, also applies to us.

To me it is plain, but I respect your understanding of that scripture and other than what I have already stated, I will not argue against your understanding.

Regards,

Finrock

Its about context again. I dropped what I was talking about because in order to give the context to explain myself I would share something that is not appropriate for this site. (or maybe it is but than just not the right place and time yet)

But I do like what you have brought up, different than what I did or thinking of, but still an interesting idea.

Two things you brought up

1) Being one with God

2) "Being" king with Christ (or same level)

1-

Being ONE with God. What does that mean? How was Christ one with the Father? First Joseph Smith defined the Holy Spirit as the Mind of God.

What makes Christ one with God is because of the holy spirit. They have the same mind. Otherwards, he has become obedient to have the mind of God speak to his soul continuously and does the will of the mind of God. His spirit is intune with God's Spirit so they are one. Thus they are one because he does nothing but what he sees the father do.

I can post something from a book if that will make it more clear.

2-

King Follet Discourse states:

What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

We may become "join-heirs" with Christ but we never really are at the same point of him. He will be our adopted Father, Under God. We are never equal entirely. So yes we can say we are equal because we have what he Had (power, oneness with God) but he has also gained greater things we don't have. But that is what he gets for living a perfect life.

[Finrock]

I wanted to also add and clarify for Anddenex in particular, that I am not even saying that I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture. I guess I'll just say it outright that I think you are missing a plain truth that doesn't take away from what you are saying, but rather it adds further understanding.

I was thinking also that another plain truth is found in our baptismal covenant which has essential bearing on what I am speaking about. When I was baptized God commanded me, and I agreed to it, to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ. I ask myself, "What is the most plain and simple interpretation of that command?" To me it plainly means that I take upon me the name Jesus Christ. I am Jesus Christ. Now, before anyone gets offended, I am not proclaiming to be some reincarnated Jesus. That is obviously false. But, if I take upon me this new name, isn't my name now Jesus? King Benjamin taught this. Obviously when we consider the true meaning and the true intention of what it means to take upon us the name of Christ, we must recognize that to take upon us this name, should not be done lightly. Because if we are going to be Christ, then we better act like Him. Otherwise, we are hypocrites and are like salt that has lost its savour.

We are in reality saying that we are Christ, in name and in deed, when we have forsaken our sins, have come unto Christ, have called on His name, obey His voice, and keep His commandments.

I also want to emphasize the role of the atonement. In all of my speech it is obvious to me that none of what I am speaking of is even possible except it be through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ. It is His atonement, His divine sacrifice, that is the enabling power behind all that we do. I believe that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, and only because of it, the way that we interpret the oneness of the members of the Godhead, is exactly the same oneness that can be applied to all of those who become one with Christ and thus with the Father through obedience to God's commandments.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 26, 2013 by Finrock
grammar and spelling