Freemasonry - Please Help?

[Leah]

You really equate my words regarding masonry to be conspiratorial whispers? I don't understand where I'm whispering or how I'm trying to be conspiratorial. Maybe I misunderstand that last paragraph.

Anti-Mormonism relies upon ignorance and lies regarding the doctrines of our faith and an unwillingness to ask of God. My post is definitely anti-masonry but I have no need to rely upon ignorance and lies... ignorance is what had previously placed my opinion in harmony with yours.

My request was to take 5-15 minutes and read the chapter I referenced and ask God in prayer. Is there any way I can get further from the tactics of lies and ignorance than that?

I too accepted the logic that because I know Joseph etc to be men of God then since they were good, and they were Masons then Masonry must be good too. I wondered why if Masonry wasn't good, why would they have joined?

I say wondered because that same chapter I reference? It answered those questions as well and removed any conflict regarding Joseph's character and participation.

You what? You're free to feel I'm wrong. Your response saddens me but I understand it because until recently I agreed with you. I can't force you and I wouldn't even if I could but I really wish you'd take 5-15 minutes and read the chapter I referenced and ask God in prayer for the truth of the matter. I'd really appreciate 'someone' doing so because at the moment I'm a lone voice here and we know of the doctrine of at least two witnesses.

Getting two "witnesses" - two people who agree with you - somehow makes you opinion the correct one?

Then what about the two "witnesses" and more - who state that you are incorrect?

[Martain]

The Lord has instituted the divine law of witnesses to assist his children in receiving the truth.

1. The Lord always sends his words through witnesses who testify of him and his word.

2. Two or more witnesses give a binding voice in the testimony of truth.

3. Through the testimony of witnesses the Lord establishes the truth of his work before his children.

4. Men are left without excuse and may either accept or reject the word of God.

This gospel principal is what I was referring to. It's one thing if one person says that something is true and that they know by the power of the Spirit of the Lord. It's something quite different when there are 2 or 3 such witnesses. If you were in my shoes, knowing the difference it made to Alma when Amulek started testifying as well, wouldn't you want a second witness to stand forth?

I haven't done an in depth study of all of their reading material, I haven't read all those books written by the experts regarding Masonry history. I read what I read and the Spirit testified what it testified.

Are there good people in Masonry? Of course there are. Frankly I wanted to simply wash hands of it and leave it alone! Yet when I asked, the guidance I received was to defend the words I wrote as true and invite anew.

If you had a witness from the Lord, would you not do the same?

I'm not wise enough to expound the whole of the matter to you. I don't have brilliant counter rebuttals to offer you. I don't have convincing logical proofs and confirming factoids. I don't know what else to do other than to testify, invite you to take the 5-15 minutes to read the chapter I read and then ask you to humbly ask of God for yourself.

I know you disagree with me but why do you mock me?

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think anyone's mocking you.

We're just saying we haven't had a spiritual witness that Freemasonry is bad or evil or anti-Christian.

It's okay for good people, intelligent people, to disagree.

[Leah]

This gospel principal is what I was referring to. It's one thing if one person says that something is true and that they know by the power of the Spirit of the Lord. It's something quite different when there are 2 or 3 such witnesses. If you were in my shoes, knowing the difference it made to Alma when Amulek started testifying as well, wouldn't you want a second witness to stand forth?

I haven't done an in depth study of all of their reading material, I haven't read all those books written by the experts regarding Masonry history. I read what I read and the Spirit testified what it testified.

Are there good people in Masonry? Of course there are. Frankly I wanted to simply wash hands of it and leave it alone! Yet when I asked, the guidance I received was to defend the words I wrote as true and invite anew.

If you had a witness from the Lord, would you not do the same?

I'm not wise enough to expound the whole of the matter to you. I don't have brilliant counter rebuttals to offer you. I don't have convincing logical proofs and confirming factoids. I don't know what else to do other than to testify, invite you to take the 5-15 minutes to read the chapter I read and then ask you to humbly ask of God for yourself.

I know you disagree with me but why do you mock me?

No one is mocking you.

Why are you playing the victim?

[mordorbund]

There's been a lot of harping on the connection between Mormon and Masonic ritual, and while that's an old bone that anti's love to gnaw it's not the one getting presented here.

Freemasons used Luciferic symbols within the layout of government center Washington D.C. Freemasons worship Lucifer, the Light-Bearer. Lucifer and Satan are biblically the same individual, Freemasonry is really the worship of Satan. By quoting their own sources and depicting the symbols in which they use, this claim is proven.

I think there have been some good discussion on why this statement is not a simple given. I'll add my own reiteration that symbols have context and should be understood within that context. We should take masons at their word about the meaning of their symbols. Also springboarding off of some earlier comments, all first-hand references that I have seen to a satanic interpretation of masonic symbols come from a work by Albert Pike. The interpretation he shares are different than what I have been given when I ask individual masons. To me, this means that Pike's interpretations, if they were ever the norm, have since fallen out of vogue; or that there is a secret interpretation that is not told to outsiders (such as myself), or perhaps not taught to most initiates (such as those I've chatted with) - but this secret is widely published and available to anyone with a library card or access to the Internet.

Satan and Masonry have the exact same goals. The secret goal of Masonry is to subjugate the world for Masonry, and be like God.

Somebody presented me with this question: Freemasons and the Illuminati are supposedly

'in league with the Devil' to put it bluntly and through deceit and lies aim to heighten themselves and become like Gods.

Your friend has presented loose evidence of a masonic tie to Satanism, but has failed to provide sources for Satan's mission statement. You would do him a great disservice to let him get away with such indolence. I've had heard some people make the argument that because the serpent in Genesis taught that Eve would be as God, knowing good and evil, that any such teaching is demonic. But equally demonic would be the teaching that Jesus is the Christ - a claim made by many demons in the New Testament.

Then that person said on the LDS.org website it said 'Man has the potential to become like God' -

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

So he asked me what's the difference - are the LDS people not just subjecting to the same Satanic power-hungry ideology?

Thoughts.. opinions. I'm a LDS and I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.

So now we've come this far and I'm confused as well. Why did your friend bring up masonry at all? Are we going to discuss masonic teachings? or would you rather discuss the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints and whether it has echoes from the depths of hell?

Christ Himself taught that we need to become one with Him and His Father. Paul taught that we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. At the very least, the scriptures teach the we are to receive what Christ receives. We take them at their word.

[BadWolf]

Has anyone here actually read or listened to the oaths Masons make or read the educational material they put out to their members? Anyone actually been a masonry member? Anyone actually talk with someone who was a High Mason who then converted to Christianity?

If not, where are you getting your information and views regarding Masonry?

I had believed Masonry to be a benign quaint and mostly dead organization until I studied it further. Now I know better and can not see how I can declair it as anything other than a secret society, the recruiting grounds for secret combinations, and a branch of the Church of the Devil with Satan at it's head.

For a long time I simply relied/leaned upon my own understanding and relied upon the arm of the flesh via what I'd heard from others. When I read a book written by a LDS author and the chapter here regarding Masonry I received a witness via the Spirit completely different than what I had originally thought. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be writing this =).

Give yourself 5-15 minutes, read, ponder, and ask the Lord yourself?

Yep.

One of my dearest friends growing up was a Daughter of Job, and now as an adult is quite active. As is her entire family. I went to school with her, I served in the military with her, I missed her wedding (Italy while I was 2 weeks past due pregnant), attend the baptisms of her children.

I'll take 20+ years of familiarity with her, her family, her Order... Over 5 minutes with an author any day of the week.

[Martain]

Even though I would not be averse to dropping this subject as it lies, I feel to reply once more. Thank you all of you for writing what you've written. Your words are very much your honest feelings and opinions and your honestly is good. I don't hold anything anyone said against them or harbor any ill feelings to any of you.

Many an individual falsely makes sweeping judgements against our religion based on the poor examples of some of our members.

Alma 4:9-10

And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

And thus ended the eighth year of the reign of the judges; and the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress.

Shall I liken such to Masonry? Are not some here making a sweeping judgment regarding the whole organization based upon the character and conduct of one or a few individuals within? If that's not the way you want others to judge us, on such a serious subject is it wise to judge others the same way?

I'll take 20+ years of familiarity with her, her family, her Order... Over 5 minutes with an author any day of the week.

I don't want anyone to accept my words or the words of the author as true simply because we say so. I want people to read and ask the Lord dirctly. I hope I'll always rather take the word of the Lord over everything else every of the week.

Are not there many well educated individuals who never seriously inquire of God to know whether the restoration or Book of Mormon is true?

2 Nephi 9:28-29 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

Alma 37:37 Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good;

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Shall I liken such to Masonry? For such a serious claim as I make regarding Masonry, is the learning of men sufficient and wise?

Yes, Martain, I have studied Masonry extensively myself which inevitably led to websites containing everything a Mason would know and hear during their initiations / ceremonies / degrees (first seven degrees of the York Rite, specifically). ... If you want a scholarly, plausible and rational/fair analysis of Masonry's origins, I recommend "Born In Blood: The Lost Secrets Of Freemasonry" by John J. Robinson. He isn't a Mason, and as importantly, he isn't an anti-Mason. He consulted all the records of Masonic museums, libraries and lodges he could get his hands on. He traveled to Oxford, consulted medieval archives and histories of England, Scotland and France back to the 1100's, and his premises/conclusions are both well thought out and even-handed.

I fully believe that if I knew what you knew, I would beleive as you believe, if I had not read what I had read and asked the Lord whether what I had read was true.

Masonry aside, the original poster asked what he should tell someone who wanted to know how our belief in the Doctrine of Progression is different from the aim of Satan and his hosts for power. When I realized many had come to the defence of Masonry but not to our faith in helping to explain the difference of doctrines I was surprised and proceeded to respond with what I feel is a very clear and good answer to the original query.

As to Masonry, my words are that Masonry, even if not originally so, at the head, is now a secret combination lead by the enemy. Upon declairing such, my words were downplayed as conspiritorial, biased and the product of ignorance. When I expressed how this saddened me I was then derided for it.

Now if you believe some shady conspiracy that Satan is the "true Supreme Being" the Masons worship, I clearly can't say anything to persuade you otherwise.

Freemasons are not a problem, to themselves or anyone else. Period.

But the conspiratorial whispers about Masonry being satanically inspired seem to me to be of a piece with anti-Mormonism; which relies on many of the same tactics.

No one is mocking you. Why are you playing the victim?

Mocking is when you make something seem laughably unreal or impossible. To mock is to treat something with ridicule or contempt or scorn.

I don't think anyone's mocking you.

We're just saying we haven't had a spiritual witness that Freemasonry is bad or evil or anti-Christian.

It's okay for good people, intelligent people, to disagree.

I don't believe any of you think you're mocking me or my words or intentionally seeking to do so. "Lord, what is this? It's almost like... they're mocking me?" was my surprised reaction to which I learned yes. I understand you haven't had a spiritual witness like I have. I don't expect anyone to simply take me at my word over such a serious issue. I want you to study it out and ask God.

You've done much study Crimson, surely even without reading what I reference, you could go the the Lord in humble prayer seeking confirmation that my words are false and that Masonry is as benign and good at the core as you understand it's surface. Surely all of you could do so. Please do so.

If you do not gain the witness against my words you seek, please do what I did, read what I read, and ask like I asked. It's obvious I can't convince any of you that my words are true. Yet if it's important, the Lord can. I'll leave that in his hands.

I'm sorry if any of you are offended by my words. I don't mean to offend or desire to do so. I write these things because I feel it is important. Even if in the end you still disagree me, please forgive me for I mean well. Likewise, please forgive me if the manner in which I've written or presented my thoughts is disagreeable to you. I tried hard to write it as best I know now.

Sincerely,

Brother M.

[Leah]

Even though I would not be averse to dropping this subject as it lies, I feel to reply once more. Thank you all of you for writing what you've written. Your words are very much your honest feelings and opinions and your honestly is good. I don't hold anything anyone said against them or harbor any ill feelings to any of you.

Many an individual falsely makes sweeping judgements against our religion based on the poor examples of some of our members.

Shall I liken such to Masonry? Are not some here making a sweeping judgment regarding the whole organization based upon the character and conduct of one or a few individuals within? If that's not the way you want others to judge us, on such a serious subject is it wise to judge others the same way?

I don't want anyone to accept my words or the words of the author as true simply because we say so. I want people to read and ask the Lord dirctly. I hope I'll always rather take the word of the Lord over everything else every of the week.

Are not there many well educated individuals who never seriously inquire of God to know whether the restoration or Book of Mormon is true?

Shall I liken such to Masonry? For such a serious claim as I make regarding Masonry, is the learning of men sufficient and wise?

I fully believe that if I knew what you knew, I would beleive as you believe, if I had not read what I had read and asked the Lord whether what I had read was true.

Masonry aside, the original poster asked what he should tell someone who wanted to know how our belief in the Doctrine of Progression is different from the aim of Satan and his hosts for power. When I realized many had come to the defence of Masonry but not to our faith in helping to explain the difference of doctrines I was surprised and proceeded to respond with what I feel is a very clear and good answer to the original query.

As to Masonry, my words are that Masonry, even if not originally so, at the head, is now a secret combination lead by the enemy. Upon declairing such, my words were downplayed as conspiritorial, biased and the product of ignorance. When I expressed how this saddened me I was then derided for it.

Mocking is when you make something seem laughably unreal or impossible. To mock is to treat something with ridicule or contempt or scorn.

I don't believe any of you think you're mocking me or my words or intentionally seeking to do so. "Lord, what is this? It's almost like... they're mocking me?" was my surprised reaction to which I learned yes. I understand you haven't had a spiritual witness like I have. I don't expect anyone to simply take me at my word over such a serious issue. I want you to study it out and ask God.

You've done much study Crimson, surely even without reading what I reference, you could go the the Lord in humble prayer seeking confirmation that my words are false and that Masonry is as benign and good at the core as you understand it's surface. Surely all of you could do so. Please do so.

If you do not gain the witness against my words you seek, please do what I did, read what I read, and ask like I asked. It's obvious I can't convince any of you that my words are true. Yet if it's important, the Lord can. I'll leave that in his hands.

I'm sorry if any of you are offended by my words. I don't mean to offend or desire to do so. I write these things because I feel it is important. Even if in the end you still disagree me, please forgive me for I mean well. Likewise, please forgive me if the manner in which I've written or presented my thoughts is disagreeable to you. I tried hard to write it as best I know now.

Sincerely,

Brother M.

You are still playing the victim.

The thoughts and attitudes you are ascribing to me are wholly untrue and created solely within your imagination. Do you always overreact to disagreements.

You stated basically that as long as two others stood in "witness" with you, that was proof of the truth of your beliefs. I asked then what about when the same happens with others who believe the opposite of you? Why would you be the one who is right? You did not offer an answer, you instead played the victim, accused people of mocking you (not one person mocked), and accused people of attitudes, actions and intentions that exist solely in your imagination. All I asked for was a simple explanation of why you believe you are right. All you can respond with is "God told me so". I ask again, if others receive a different answer from God, why do you insist they are wrong?

[Martain]

You are still playing the victim.

The thoughts and attitudes you are ascribing to me are wholly untrue and created solely within your imagination. Do you always overreact to disagreements.

I'm sorry Leah that you feel I'm playing the victim as I'm not playing at anything. Everything I've said is honestly heart felt and sincere.

Based upon my understanding of mocking, your words and tone fit. I could use your help here though Leah, what are the thoughts and attitudes which am I ascribing to you?

I... don't feel that I'm overacting, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on that?

You stated basically that as long as two others stood in "witness" with you, that was proof of the truth of your beliefs. I asked then what about when the same happens with others who believe the opposite of you? Why would you be the one who is right? You did not offer an answer, you instead played the victim, accused people of mocking you (not one person mocked), and accused people of attitudes, actions and intentions that exist solely in your imagination. All I asked for was a simple explanation of why you believe you are right. All you can respond with is "God told me so".

I... thought I'd answered that question already? Umm... I guess not good enough? Ok, I'll try explaining it again?

When Alma went to Ammonihah by himself:

Alma 9:6 And they said: Who is God, that sendeth no more authority than one man among this people, to declare unto them the truth of such great and marvelous things?

When Alma was joined by Amulek:

Alma 10:12 And now, when Amulek had spoken these words the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things whereof they were accused, and also of the things which were to come, according to the spirit of prophecy which was in them.

The 'Law of Witnesses' and my desire for another witness is not because it would make my words true as only a witness from the Lord would do that. My desire for another witness is simply because until then my words are like Alma's in 9:6. My hope is that if another stood up, individuals might react like those who heard Amulek in Alma 10:12.

I ask again, if others receive a different answer from God, why do you insist they are wrong?

Maybe I'm missed reading a post but as far as I could tell, no one here indicated that they had received a different answer from God. No one indicated having even asked of God. My plea was and is still to "ask" God.

Is there... a question you feel I still haven't answered?

[BadWolf]

Then, to clarify...

In over 20 years of freely associating with Freemasons, not once has the spirit ever intimated anything the author purports. To the contrary, in fact.

I work in a field which puts me into dangerous scenarios on a regular basis. I listen. I don't always heed, but I listen.

Never once has there been any warning concerning my friend, her family, her order.

The idea of the LDS church having any roots in Masonry, is quite frankly, comforting. As Ive always found the Masons I know to be learned, pragmatic, thoughtful, deliberate, & compassionate. In fact, that last is fairly key.

[Leah]

I'm sorry Leah that you feel I'm playing the victim as I'm not playing at anything. Everything I've said is honestly heart felt and sincere.

Based upon my understanding of mocking, your words and tone fit. I could use your help here though Leah, what are the thoughts and attitudes which am I ascribing to you?

I... don't feel that I'm overacting, so I guess we'll just have to disagree on that?

I... thought I'd answered that question already? Umm... I guess not good enough? Ok, I'll try explaining it again?

When Alma went to Ammonihah by himself:

When Alma was joined by Amulek:

The 'Law of Witnesses' and my desire for another witness is not because it would make my words true as only a witness from the Lord would do that. My desire for another witness is simply because until then my words are like Alma's in 9:6. My hope is that if another stood up, individuals might react like those who heard Amulek in Alma 10:12.

Maybe I'm missed reading a post but as far as I could tell, no one here indicated that they had received a different answer from God. No one indicated having even asked of God. My plea was and is still to "ask" God.

Is there... a question you feel I still haven't answered?

Do you not understand English? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?

I ask you a simple question and rather than simply answer it, you continue you to play the victim and create things out of whole cloth in order to be "right".

You are told (and it is obvious in the posts themselves) that none of us are mocking you. But you would rather cry and pretend to be a victim, rather than accept the truth.

There is no point in attempting a conversation with someone who is so invested in believing that he is being picked on.

[Guest]

closed