Do Mormons Consider The Bible To Be Perverted?

[MaidservantX]

Thank you for your words and testimony. And your take on those passages. I agree that there is one gospel. I would say that it comes straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ still lives today and his words have not come to an end.

[Truth in Love]

I am sorry, I do not mean to have to have the last word, but where does Jesus teach Mormon theology?

[MaidservantX]

oh, I was going to say, too, it has been a while since I got deep into the New Testament, so I'm sure you are more prepared with understanding from there at this time. I have been reading Isaiah lately, and also several passages about the topic of prayer in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. In fact, that is why I turned to Isaiah, too, I wanted to deepen my understanding of a prayer relationship with my Heavenly Father.

Happy believing, Truth in Love.

Jesus Christ speaks to his prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley. Jesus spoke as recorded in the New Testament. But he is not a silent God in the present, he still speaks.

[a-train]

how do you as Mormons deal with the verse in Galatians where Paul says that anyone who preaches a new gospel even an angel, should be condemned?

Mormons believe that after the primitive church was established, that a "new gospel" or "other gospel" was taught and believed by many and is still in practice today. This is not a specific doctrine or message, any supposed "gospel" that is not the TRUE gospel is "another gospel".

We believe that the world put man's theology and philosophy before the LORD's word. Various creeds, created by men, not founded in scripture are taught and believed throughout Christianity even unto this day. At the time of Joseph Smith, no man possessed a true knowledge of the true gospel (however, this does NOT condemn those who died without such knowledge to hell, that is another topic).

A Restoration was necessary. Thus the LORD put forth a new Dispensation of the gospel. To Joseph Smith He revealed the answers to many questions that have been debated throughout Christian history. The oneness of the Godhead, the necessity of Baptism, the mode of Baptism, Papacy, the Resurrection, etc., etc. All of these things were clarified and revealed by the LORD with the coming forth of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. Therefore, LDS believe that the Revealed Gospel delivered to Joseph Smith was and is the original Gospel of Jesus Christ, and those "other gospels" that are preached among men to this day are those spoken of by Paul.

I am sorry, I do not mean to have to have the last word, but where does Jesus teach Mormon theology?

LDS believe that all the "theology" that Christ taught was "Mormon". In other words, LDS people get their concept of God from the scriptures, including and especially the Bible. In short, Jesus taught "Mormon theology" everywhere He taught. It's in the Bible.

God Bless

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Forgive a battle-weary cynic, TIL, but your posts smack of anti-mormonism (albeit a milder vein than normal).

I love how you approach your real issue, which seems to be: LDS theology is not Christian and Christ didn't teach it.

Instead of being direct, you first try to set a trap for us by throwing us a slow ball question like: "Do you believe the Bible is scripture?"

Then of course when we say yes, you turn around with, "Ah ha! Well then if you believe the Bible, you can't be a Mormon because an angel taught it and Galatians condemns angels and...and...and..." It's like you read the formula for proving Mormons wrong from a 19th century pamphlet. "If Mormons believe this, they can't believe this, so ask them if they believe this, and you'll have proved to them that they are wrong." Bleh.

If that's as deep as you can get into the issue, I can understand why you wouldn't want to talk to your friend about it. He'd probably be as annoyed as I am.

I don't mind talking with members of other faiths or no faith, but be direct and forthright.

I would have been more impressed with your sincerity if you had simply said in your original post, "Hey, it says such-and-such in Galatians, and I was wondering what the LDS take is on that scripture?"

Here's a question for you, TIL. The LDS gospel consists of the good news that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected to save us from death and hell. How is that another gospel than that preached in the New Testament?

[Truth in Love]

CK,

I really am sincere about my original question. I believe that it is central to any conversation between Mormons and traditional Christians. To answer your question, I believe that Mormonism is another gospel because it teaches things not taught by Jesus or the apostles. Jesus did not teach that his followers would become gods. In fact, he taught that even if they followed him with complete devotion, at the end of the day, they would still be unprofitable servants.

[Truth in Love]

a-train,

This brings us back to the original question. Paul had much to say about salvation. Much of what is considered traditional Christian teaching regarding salvation is based on his writings. To say that these writings are of questionable origin is to question most of the New Testament. The New Testament is either true or it is perverted.

[MaidservantX]

As you say, I'm sure there is a scripture that brings forward the idea of 'unprofitable servants'. However there are scriptures such as these: John 1:12 (becoming sons of God) and those passages that speak of heirs and joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17; Galations 4:7; Titus 3:7). The problem is that we can slap scriptures around all day to bring different angles of the Word to light. We here are, of course, not trying to prove the truth or our religion or faith in Jesus Christ to you. We would never suggest that you are condemned because of your beliefs, although you are willing to suggest such to us. We were and are willing to provide information in the subject of your questions. God can provide his own proofs.

Paul's teachings are not of questionable origin. Paul wrote those letters. The Bible as an entirety has passed through the hands of some uninspired and perhaps even corrupt persons; as well as some inspired persons. It would be in the interest of all persons who love God and the Bible to seek a restoration of what was really written at His hands. However two things cannot be overemphasized (although they've already been said): We read and study the King James Version of the Bible, period. I am positive you would be comfortable in any LDS Sunday School anywhere, in the years we study the Old and New Testament (which volume are we studying this year? I never get to go to Sunday School lately 'cause of the baby it seems). That's one. Two, is that the final word of doctrine is not any written tome of scripture -- not the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. If there is any final word, it will come straight from the mouth of God's prophet. They are living words from a living Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's World (General) Conference is about to be held coming up on March 31 and April 1. Depending on where you live or if you have satellite tv, you may be able to find a visual or audio broadcast. Or you can later find the texts of the messages given in the Ensign magazine, published in May, or at www.lds.org. This will give you the best idea of what is currently being taught in the Church of Jesus Christ. (You can also look up texts of October's conference online -- it was an amazing meeting, a lot about healing and trust in God through trials).

I disagree that the only two choices are 1) the Bible is true. or 2) the Bible is perverted. Where did you get the word perverted? Why would you use that word? We would NEVER use that word to describe the Bible. Why is it so difficult to see that some things in the original scripts of the texts used in the Bible could have been lost or tampered with? Why isn't that at least something to be considered? However, these challenges in the Bible hardly change its central and overall message: that Jesus Christ is Savior, Redeemer, Messiah and is the Lamb of God, giving his sacrifice and atonement so that Heavenly Father's children can be reconciled to him.

By the way, the amount of Jesus's words that got recorded in the New Testament must be an unbelievably small fraction of what he said throughout his life and his 3 year ministry. Wouldn't it be nice to somehow get to 'hear' it all?

[Truth in Love]

I got the word "pervert" from I Nephi 13:27. The Bible can not be true and perverted at the same time. You must choose whether you will believe the Gospel of the New Testament or the Gospel of Joseph Smith. Jesus Himself said that He came to bring a sword, and that He would divide families.

[prisonchaplain]

It dawns on me that we evangelicals are perhaps over-concerned with that phrase in LDS doctrine "as far as it is translated correctly." We read into that perhaps far more suspicion and mistrust than is intended. And, ultimately, the whole matter is overshadowed by the doctrinal issue of AUTHORITY. Since official church doctrine and teaching is given under the authority of the Church, with far less lattitude for individual interpretation than most evangelicals are accustomed to, the singular question of how trustworthy our translations of the Bible are, is probably not that significant.

To offer an example: Catholics believe the Bible to be true, and make no issue of the reliability of translations. Yet, we evangelicals take issue with many of the RCC's teachings. Those teachings are not individual interpretations, but come under the authority of the church.

So, perhaps it would be wiser to discuss particular doctrines, offer scriptural references, and allow the Holy Spirit to work the witness of truth in our hearts?

[MaidservantX]

Although I am truly enjoying our conversation, Truth, I can tell you don't have any real questions, rather, you have answers. Very well.

Joseph Smith doesn't have a gospel. Jesus Christ does. The New Testament is not the only record of Jesus Christ's gospel. The gospel was given to Adam, for example.

That verse in 1 Nephi refers to the influence of Satan upon the earth and upon the information available to men, especially after the truth that the Savior spoke in the New Testament was lost in succeeding generations. There is no latter-day Saint that would ever suggest that 'perverted' describes the words and teachings in the Bible. The only individuals that I ever hear insisting on that description are some non-lds individuals, which I find odd. Why would you try to convince me that I think the Bible is perverted since I so plainly have stated that I love and follow the gospel as found in the Bible (among other places)? The rest of the scenario that is begun in 1 Nephi ch 13 verses 26 and 27 is culminated in verses 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 and most especially verses 40 and 41 " . . . shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth." These words reflect both what you have been saying and what I (and the others) have been saying.

Again, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You obviously are passionate about your Savior. But I continue this conversation because I never get tired of talking about God and the scriptures, it is wonderful to do.

The Savior did talk about a 'division' you refer to (I'm not sure why you brought that up or why it applies to the rest of your invitation or statement?), but I think he was warning us that choosing him would not always be easy and that we might have to leave even our families behind. I don't think it was an instruction or blessing upon deliberately being a source of contention to those who believe differently than we do (I'm not saying you are, but neither am I, of course). We can all serve and teach each other.

I have chosen. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. I have made covenants with him and I have his baptism. He has me in his hand and he leads me in the paths he desires me to go. It sounds like this is so with you, as well. Isn't it joyful to experience this salvation?

[CrimsonKairos]

I'll be as blunt with you TIL, as you are with us.

You are perverting Bible teachings, if anyone.

Jesus never taught that after his death, there would never be any more living apostles or prophets.

Jesus never taught that God's mouth was shut forever once scholars in Nicea assembled the "traditional" Christian Bible.

Jesus never taught that his gospel wouldn't be lost and need to be restored.

Your issue is simple: Either God can still speak through prophets, or he can't. If He can, it doesn't matter what those prophets say...they will be His words.

Your quest is simple also: find out if Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. How? Read the Book of Mormon. Ask God if its teachings are true. If they are, Joseph Smith is what he claims he was (a prophet), and the LDS Church is what he says it is (Christ's New Testament Church restored to earth).

I only fear that your mind is so fettered with narrow Biblical interpretations that you can't allow yourself a fair evaluation of the Book of Mormon. There'd be this inner Baptist voice finding fault with wordings or grammar or what have you, all in an attempt to validate what you've no doubt been taught which is that the LDS Church is a cult and we members are Satan's servants.

I will go as far as to say you are incorrect in some of your beliefs, TIL.

Yes, Jesus is our Savior.

No, the Bible doesn't contain all his or his servants' words.

It's not my job to convince you, though. If you really want to know, you'll read LDS scriptures before coming to one of our online forums and telling us how wrong we are.

Have you even read whole chapters of the Book of Mormon, or do you only read the one or two verse excerpts that are taken out of context in anti-mormon propaganda?

[CrimsonKairos]

I also love how your username is the name of an anti-mormon online ministry: "Truth in Love to Mormons."

I won't bother giving the URL to their site, I'm sure everyone can find it. It's a laughable attempt at making anti-mormons seem compassionate and sincerely concerned. Here's a particularly amusing excerpt after a section that encourages the anti-mormon to get us to admit that we don't do all the "works" we "have to do" to be saved.

We need to concentrate on the areas where they are fudging in their religion. If they are content with having limited families, we need to confront them with the requirement of their church.

Many people are repulsed by this strategy since it has the appearance of kicking Mormons when they are down. Many regard this as the farthest thing from treating Mormons lovingly. However, we must remember the big picture. Mormons are on their way to suffering eternally in hell. To prevent that outcome, drastic measures are called for. Being a conscience to Mormons, adding weight to their load until they realize they can't carry it, is painful for all involved. But it can't compare to the pain of hell

Gimme a break.

[shanstress70]

"Many people are repulsed by this strategy since it has the appearance of kicking Mormons when they are down. Many regard this as the farthest thing from treating Mormons lovingly. However, we must remember the big picture. Mormons are on their way to suffering eternally in hell. To prevent that outcome, drastic measures are called for. Being a conscience to Mormons, adding weight to their load until they realize they can't carry it, is painful for all involved. But it can't compare to the pain of hell"

Nice and loving!

[Dr T]

Good topic. If God allows hell to exist-does that make him unloving? Or is it that God has to have a hell to be loving? Another thread some time I guess.

[Truth in Love]

CK,

Jesus said that His words would never pass away. He did not say that His words will pass away for a while, but then be restored in the last days. New Testament prophesy does not indicate that in the last days there will be a restoration of the true gospel. It teaches that people will fall away from the true gospel and will not endure sound doctrine.

-I am not familiar with the group Truth in Love to Mormons. I don't say this to be antagonistic, but I will look them up.

[Palerider]

Can you be more specific about these deliberate changes?

Mr. Raines,

One of my best friends in a Mormon. I do not consider him to be of the devil. I am trying to learn more about his religion.

funny you say that....living here in the Bible Belt its hard to find a Baptist Church or Southern Baptist or Freewill Baptist or Fellowship Freewill Baptist Church that doesn't teach what Ben Raines asked you.

I got the word "pervert" from I Nephi 13:27. The Bible can not be true and perverted at the same time. You must choose whether you will believe the Gospel of the New Testament or the Gospel of Joseph Smith. Jesus Himself said that He came to bring a sword, and that He would divide families.

you might want to read that verse again instead of anti lit.....you took that way out of context.....but then again thats how all anti lit works......just ask Wally Martin and Eddie Decker...2 wonderfull followers of Christ and both found out to be frauds and liars...and authors of anti lit.

[Truth in Love]

Palerider,

I am not qualified to judge anyone. I love my friend and I am not his judge. I am concerned about his eternal destiny.

[BenRaines]

Enough of this. In my moderator opinion this thread violates the rules of the site. Rules state that you can come and share you beliefs but not to present anti Mormon beliefs or to persecute the saints. Truth in Love, if you would like to come here and share you beliefs you are welcome to come and post. If you are going to start another tread with an attempt to convert or show us our wrong doing then thread will be deleted and your account suspended.

Ben Raines