Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ?

[Just_A_Guy]

Did Snuffer, or did he not, write that "We claim to hold keys that would allow men filled with sin to forgive sins on earth and in heaven, to grant eternal life, or to bar from the kingdom of God. Using that false and useless claim, we slay the souls of men, thereby committing murder”?

Did he, or did he not, write that “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom”?

Did he, or did he not, write that "The church now markets itself as an institution that will “strengthen families.” It does not inform its members, or prospective converts that the day will come they will be burned up unless they have connected to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Joseph Smith as the Dispensation head, in a necessary priestly ordinance”?

Did he, or did he not, write that "The current phase of Mormonism is missing the direct appearance of God, angels, and visions”?

In the discussion I linked to above, Gideon specifically asked to be corrected as to what he was misrepresenting. No one could explain it; it all just boiled down to "well, yeah, he said that, but he's right" and "read the book, you'll understand where he's coming from".

You know what?

If the purpose to reading a book is so that I'll somehow feel comfortable with assertions like the above--thanks, but I'll pass. It's spiritual porn, as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest]

spiritual porn

Perfect description.

[Vort]

I have decided there are two types of prophets from this discussion.

I believe that a "prophet" is someone with the gift of prophecy. I believe that's all the term implies, though we often use it casually to refer to the President of the Church, or sometimes to Joseph Smith as "the Prophet".

[ElectofGod]

Did Snuffer, or did he not, write that "We claim to hold keys that would allow men filled with sin to forgive sins on earth and in heaven, to grant eternal life, or to bar from the kingdom of God. Using that false and useless claim, we slay the souls of men, thereby committing murder”?

True statement. If we had the sealing power (Holy spirit of promise) anyone sealed in the temples would be sealed up unto eternal life NO MATTER WHAT (except unpardonable sin). I already stated this earlier. Instead we have the (conditional promise of just sealing that must be ratified by the HSoP) That is not TRUE sealing power. Just a preparatory sealing power.

Did he, or did he not, write that “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom”?

Yup. I have posted quotes on what the Testimony of Jesus is. Read those. Read D&C 76 requirements of Celestial beings. Than read what it means to be sealed up by the holy spirit of promise (already quoted the verses). It is to have our C&E. This witness is through the Holy ghost given to us from Christ. Either that Joseph Smith made an error in his statement or recorded it wrong. Its in the last 10 posts.

Some believe this some don't. I am just showing how he came to the conclusion.

Did he, or did he not, write that "The church now markets itself as an institution that will “strengthen families.” It does not inform its members, or prospective converts that the day will come they will be burned up unless they have connected to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Joseph Smith as the Dispensation head, in a necessary priestly ordinance”?

This is the mission of Elijah. To seal the hearts of the children to the Fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. If you read (Denver quotes these) the original transcripts of Joseph smith he add's on "the hearts of the children to the Fathers in Heaven." (How accurate are those originals I do not know, Think its in the Joseph Smith papers but never looked at it myself)

We teach the link between the first 2 and perform those in the temples. The last link is not taught since Joseph Smith.We need ALL 3. So the dead will be connected to the Fathers in Heaven if they did not get sealed up by the Holy Spirit of Promise they will than thus be sealed up to be able to enter into the Celestial Kingdom as receiving the blessings "if they were permitted to tarry".

What good does it do to save our dead to us and us to them if we are not worthy to enter the celestial kingdom? Nothing. We will be damned, than our ancestors will because they have no priesthood link into the Celestial kingdom.

These are not new doctrine's. Denver Taught nothing.

Edited May 1, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Anddenex]

These are not new doctrine's. Denver Taught nothing.

If what JAG has shared to be true and you have confirmed it, then they are "false doctrines" and his personal interpretation...and yes, Denver then did teach false doctrines.

If Denver said, people will only achieve the "Terrestial Kingdom" if they do not do as he interprets scriptures, then he is providing an eternal judgement which is not his to give, or command. False doctrine.

I feel really sorry for people who comply with this teaching, according to his teaching less than 1% of the Church will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

[ElectofGod]

If what JAG has shared to be true and you have confirmed it, then they are "false doctrines" and his personal interpretation...and yes, Denver then did teach false doctrines.

If Denver said, people will only achieve the "Terrestial Kingdom" if they do not do as he interprets scriptures, then he is providing an eternal judgement which is not his to give, or command. False doctrine.

I feel really sorry for people who comply with this teaching, according to his teaching less than 1% of the Church will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

What are you talking about I quoted Joseph Smith not Denver. Denver also was quoting Joseph Smith. We still have the clause "all those who died without the knowledge who would have received it will get there too"... But that is not what he was saying. The holy spirit of promise is required for ALL this life or the next if they didn't have a chance to get it yet.

[Anddenex]

What are you talking about I quoted Joseph Smith not Denver. Denver also was quoting Joseph Smith. We still have the clause "all those who died without the knowledge who would have received it will get there too"... But that is not what he was saying. The holy spirit of promise is required for ALL this life or the next if they didn't have a chance to get it yet.

EoG, you confirmed this statement from JAG, which isn't a quote from Joseph Smith but something JAG was expressing Denver taught:

"Did he, or did he not, write that “They were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Those who fall short of this, and do not receive this witness from Christ in mortality but receive it afterwards, will be heirs of the Terrestrial Kingdom”?

Your response, "Yup."

[ElectofGod]

Can I make it plainer?

Yes. But don't feel right posting it here. I will pm both of you. Can respond in this thread once you read it. I am not saying its right just how its possible. I have not made up my own mind. This is what someone else told me when I asked them this same question. They gave me a better quote by Joseph Smith. I can track it down when I have more time.

Edited May 1, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Just_A_Guy]

EoG, I appreciate your willingness to engage, but you're basically falling into the "yeah, but he's right" category I mentioned earlier.

True statement. If we had the sealing power (Holy spirit of promise) anyone sealed in the temples would be sealed up unto eternal life NO MATTER WHAT (except unpardonable sin). I already stated this earlier. Instead we have the (conditional promise of just sealing that must be ratified by the HSoP) That is not TRUE sealing power. Just a preparatory sealing power.

The "true" sealing power, as you describe it, does happen in temple ordinances administered by the Church; just not in the endowment or the husband/wife sealing. Moreover, the statement I quoted also implies that the Church has no power to revoke someone's priesthood. That's a claim that the FLDS are very fond of making.

Yup. I have posted quotes on what the Testimony of Jesus is. Read those. Read D&C 76 requirements of Celestial beings.

Inference upon inference, and assumes that "prophecy" and "more sure word of prophecy" are one and the same. They are not; and D&C 76 requires (logically, by substituting the definition in Revelation 19:10) requires only the former to have been received in mortality.

Note the sequence in D&C 76:51-53. The testimony of Jesus comes before baptism; then comes receiving the Holy Spirit, overcoming by faith, and then sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise (which, for the purpose of this discussion, I'll assume is one and the same thing as C&E/2nd Comforter). It therefore follows that the "testimony of Jesus" spoken of in D&C 76 is not C&E/2nd Comforter.

This is the mission of Elijah. To seal the hearts of the children to the Fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. If you read (Denver quotes these) the original transcripts of Joseph smith he add's on "the hearts of the children to the Fathers in Heaven."

I see nothing in what you offered saying that the link must go through Joseph Smith personally; though the Church certainly has taught--and continues to teach--that Smith's role in the salvation of those of this dispensation is key; and that one way or another the chain of sealings must eventually run back to Adam, and thence to Christ.

If you get a chance to provide the exact reference regarding what Snuffer says about the original manuscripts (including footnotes, if possible), I'll be happy to see if I can ferret out the images on the Joseph Smith Papers Project website.

[ElectofGod]

Here is the quote I found myself. I will see if its the same quote someone sent me later. I think they used a different source so probably not.

James Burgess Notebook First Chapter second Epistle of Peter. The first four verses are the preface to the whole subject. There are three grand Keys to unlock the whole subject. First what is the knowledge of God, Second what is it to make our calling God, Second what is it to make our calling and election sure. Third and last is how to make our calling and election sure. Ans, it is to obtain a promise from God for myself that I shall have Eternal life. that is the more sure word of prophycy. 31 Peter was writeing to those of like precious faith with them the Apostles First to be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise that is the testimony of Jesus Second how is he to get that Holy Spirit; Ans except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God; second except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 32 Ques. What is it for a man to obtain salvation Ans, It is to triumph over every foe or ascend far above all enemies for the last enimey to conquor is death and untill that is done you have not obtained salvation J. Smith Prophet. Nauvoo.

Widtsoe, John A.; Whitney, Orson F.; Roberts, B. H.; Smith, Joseph Fielding; Smith, Joseph; Ehat, Andrew; Smith, Lucy Mack; Cannon, George Q.; Taylor, John (2012-02-25). Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition including the LDS Standar Works, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, History of the Church, History of Joseph by His Mother, and More (Kindle Locations 2767-2773). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

[ElectofGod]

Just_Guys... I don't mean to. Like I said some of this is my "learning" and some of it is his. I appreciate you going through the trouble to see if he is teaching false things or just taking things out of context (probably the second has he DOES do that in my opinion quite often). Its good for me to have someone willing to contend with things sometimes ... I feel how I UNDERSTAND what he wrote is true as the spirit has confirmed it. BUT if he is saying something different than the spirit led me to belive or what your understanding to believe we may be on different pages. So this is why its important to have the spirit so we don't get deceived.

I am quite enjoying this investiagtion. Am very grateful for it. I will correct anything as I see it to be error. I am more than willing to admit anything is wrong.

[Just_A_Guy]

I appreciate the Burgess quote. However, given what I've pointed out about the D&C's own wording, and given what we know about the manner in which D&C 76 was recorded versus my admitted ignorance of how or when Burgess made his notes as well as the context of those two different occasions--I'm not prepared to force-fit Joseph's purported definition as recorded by Burgess, into a separate document recorded nearly a decade earlier.

[ElectofGod]

Ok here is the Elijah stuff...

http://www.denversnuffer.info/Elijah.pdf

He goes through the story for 40 pages about prophets like Enoch, Melchezidek and shows how they were sealed up into heaven. Than the quotes come in around page 23-28. HE goes off on it for a few pages. I would proably read it but will post a section of it below.

[Page 24 of 42

and Elisha‘s ministry continued from there.

All of this is, in my view, the reason why Elijah must return. Elijah went up the same

fiery ascent as the earlier translations. In the last days the system that began at first with

Zion going up to heaven, will transpose. It is going to open again, but this time instead of

Zion leaving, Zion is going to stay and the residents of Zion will be joined by those who

were translated. Zion will not return through a fiery ascent. Those who ascended will

come again back through the corridor to join a small group prepared to endure such glory.

There is this marvelous description given to Enoch of when they return, they will fall on

one another‘s necks and they will kiss one another. 116

Zion below and Zion above will be

reunited.

The purpose of the return of Elijah, which Joseph talked about being a yet future event in

Nauvoo, has everything to do with the return of Zion and the Lord‘s Second Coming.

You can look at the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith to find references to what I‘m

covering next. But that book is taken from the diaries of those who were present and

recorded what they heard Joseph say. The diaries of the audience on the days Joseph

gave the talks have been amalgamated into a single account which appears as the

Teachings. These various accounts were compiled into a consolidated version and edited

for grammar, punctuation and spelling, which is what you have in the Teachings of the

Prophet Joseph Smith. But if you want the actual journals or diaries, that is found in the

Words of Joseph Smith. Unfortunately that book is now out of print, and it is

extravagantly expensive if you decide to buy a copy. The last I heard they were going for

over $300, and, that copy was not in very good condition. However, you can find a copy

through an LDS electronic library rather inexpensively. I understand there is work being

109

Id. v. 9.

110

Id. v. 10.

111

D&C 84: 21-22.

112

2 Kings 2: 11-12. Interestingly he cried out, as the event took place: ―My father, my father!‖

113

Id. v. 13.

114

Id. v. 14.

115

Others knew this as well. See 2 Kings 2: 15.

116

Moses 7: 63. Page 25 of 42

done by Andy Ehat to bring it back into print, as well as to add a second volume to it

which is to include comparable information taken from the Kirtland era talks of Joseph

Smith. The Words of Joseph Smith in its current form is a compilation of only the

Nauvoo era discourses. If the new project gets completed, it will be a two volume set

covering both Nauvoo and Kirtland.

Well, to resume the topic, we go to January of 1844 in Nauvoo. This is some eight years

post-Kirtland Temple appearance of Elijah.

117

On January 7, 1844, Joseph delivered a

talk in front of Robert E. Foster‘s hotel, near the Nauvoo Temple. I am going to quote

from Wilford Woodruff‘s Journal as the account of the talk that day. Joseph discussed

the importance of Elijah, and said the following:

―The Bible says, ‗I will send you Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord

Come that he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children & the hearts of the

Children to their fathers lest I Come & smite the whole earth with a Curse,‘ Now the

word turn here should be translated (bind or seal) But what is the object of this important

mission or how is it to be fulfilled, The keys are to be delivered the spirit of Elijah is to

Come,

118

The gospel to be established the Saints of God gathered, Zion built up, & and

the Saints to Come up as saviors on Mount Zion but how are they to become Saviors on

mount Zion[?] by building temples erecting Baptismal fonts & going forth & receiving

all the ordinances, Baptisms, Confirmations, washings, annointings ordinations & sealing

powers upon our heads in behalf of all our Progenitors who are dead & redeem them that

they may Come forth in the first resurrection & be exalted to thrones of glory with us,

&‖ 119

What comes next is quite important, and I want to call attention to it before reading it.

Joseph is about to lament the condition of the Saints then in Nauvoo. And it is quite

important, I think, that this critical talk given by Joseph is recorded by no one in the

audience other than Wilford Woodruff.

120

Thankfully Bro. Woodruff did so. But here is

a statement of such terrible importance that it can change your entire understanding of

what Joseph was teaching, and only a single person present bothers to record it. Well,

Joseph laments:

―I would to God that this temple was now done that we might go into it & go to work &

improve our time & make use of the seals while they are on the earth & the Saints have

none to much time to save & redeem their dead, & gather together their living relatives

that they may be saved also, before the earth will be smitten & the Consumption decreed

falls upon the world.‖ 121

117

D&C 110 is dated April 3, 1836.

118

Notice Joseph‘s phrasing is future. The keys ―are to be delivered‖ rather than they ―had been

delivered.‖ The ―spirit of Elijah is to come‖ and not that it had already come in 1836.

119

Words of Joseph Smith, p. 318, spelling and punctuation as in original, all footnotes omitted, from this

and subsequent excerpts which follow.

120

Willard Richards only notes the weather ―was somewhat unpleasant.‖ As to the talk, he recorded Joseph

spoke ―on sealing the hearts of the fathers to the children & the heart of the children to the fathers.‖ Id., p.

319.

121

Id., p. 318.

Joseph lamented that the ―seals‖ were still, with him ―on the earth.‖ But he noted that the

Saints should be making use of them, in the Temple, ―while they are [yet] on the earth.‖

It implies, of course, that the available time was drawing to an end. That the haste

required by the Lord

122

to have the Nauvoo Temple built was because a real threat existed

that these seals were going to be lost to the Saints.

123

The consequence of failing to have

these things accomplished while the seals were on the earth was that ―the earth will be

smitten

124

and the consumption decreed

125

would fall upon the world.‖ Joseph had made

a hard bargain to get time in which to rescue some portion of the family of man from this

looming catastrophe.

126

This is the talk, and this the place in the talk, when Joseph laments the Saints‘ failure to

accept the truth. In the context of Elijah‘s mission, turning hearts to the fathers, and

using the seals then available on the earth, Joseph speaks of our hard heads, resistance to

truth, and flying to pieces when something new is taught about the work of God. He

continues:

―Their has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation it

has been like splitting hemlock knots with a Corn doger for a wedge & a pumpkin for a

beetle, Even the Saints are slow to understand I have tried for a number of years to get

the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some

of them after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass as

soon as any thing Comes that is Contrary to their traditions, they Cannot stand the fire at

all, How many will be able to abide a Celestial law & go through to receive their

exhaltation I am unable to say but many are Called & few are Chosen.‖ 127

Page 26 of 42

Joseph lamented that the ―seals‖ were still, with him ―on the earth.‖ But he noted that the

Saints should be making use of them, in the Temple, ―while they are [yet] on the earth.‖

It implies, of course, that the available time was drawing to an end. That the haste

required by the Lord

122

to have the Nauvoo Temple built was because a real threat existed

that these seals were going to be lost to the Saints.

123

The consequence of failing to have

these things accomplished while the seals were on the earth was that ―the earth will be

smitten

124

and the consumption decreed

125

would fall upon the world.‖ Joseph had made

a hard bargain to get time in which to rescue some portion of the family of man from this

looming catastrophe.

126

This is the talk, and this the place in the talk, when Joseph laments the Saints‘ failure to

accept the truth. In the context of Elijah‘s mission, turning hearts to the fathers, and

using the seals then available on the earth, Joseph speaks of our hard heads, resistance to

truth, and flying to pieces when something new is taught about the work of God. He

continues:

―Their has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation it

has been like splitting hemlock knots with a Corn doger for a wedge & a pumpkin for a

beetle, Even the Saints are slow to understand I have tried for a number of years to get

the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some

of them after suffering all they have for the work of God will fly to pieces like glass as

soon as any thing Comes that is Contrary to their traditions, they Cannot stand the fire at

all, How many will be able to abide a Celestial law & go through to receive their

exhaltation I am unable to say but many are Called & few are Chosen.‖ 127

The Saints of that day were unwilling to hear from Joseph about these doctrines.

Therefore they left us with a single version of his talk about this most important subject,

given on January 7, 1844. Joseph would be dead six months later. The catastrophe of his

death loss was, of course, unanticipated by them at the time. Therefore their indifference

may seem somewhat excusable. When, however, the importance of the topic is weighed

in the balance, how is anyone to conclude that either they, or we, are excused from

careful, solemn and ponderous investigation into this topic? Even if considering it causes

us to fear, we should trust that a loving Heavenly Father will not leave us in the dark

about such matters. And, of course, the first step to repenting and reclaiming what God

offers is always to awaken and arise from your pitiful condition lying in the dust. To

repent, and return to Him will always allow us to regain His grace. But unless we

awaken, we are not in a position to even attempt to repent. We don‘t know we need to!

We remain in our slumber, lying in the dust, unredeemed, unawake, and without

understanding which might have saved some few of us.

122

D&C 124: 26, 31.

123

Id. v. 32.

124

D&C 2: 3.

125

D&C 87: 6.

126

D&C 124: 1. I discuss this verse at length in Passing the Heavenly Gift.

127

Words of Joseph Smith, p. 319.

Joseph revisited the topic of Elijah‘s meaning again in a talk given on March 10, 1844.

When he picks up the subject again to discuss Elijah, he says, ―The spirit power & calling

of Elijah is that ye have power to hold the keys of the revelations ordinances, oricles

powers & endowments of the fulness of the Melchezedek Priesthood & of the Kingdom

of God on the Earth & to receive, obtain and perform all the ordinances belonging to the

Kingdom of God even unto the sealing of the hearts of the fathers unto the children & the

hearts of the children unto the fathers even those who are in heaven.‖ 128

Notice the connection between these parties. It is not to connect you to your kindred

dead. They are in the world of spirits. They are not ―in heaven.‖ Joseph is talking about

a connection of your hearts to ―the hearts of the fathers who are in heaven.‖ That is the

mission of Elijah. If you will receive it, this is the spirit of Elijah: That we redeem our

dead, but then connect ourselves with our ―fathers which are in heaven.‖ Our dead are

saved through us, but we are saved by connecting to our ―fathers in heaven.‖ Who are

our ―fathers in heaven‖ to whom we must be connected? If all we do is connect

ourselves to our dead, then neither they nor we are connected to the ―fathers in heaven.‖

So it becomes quite important to understand why Joseph is talking in these strange terms.

Who are these ―fathers in heaven‖ to whom we must form a connection? We want the

power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell ―in heaven.‖

Merely connecting the earthly to their kindred dead will not suffice. Joseph is explaining

something more cosmic in this integration of generations. It is greater than mere

genealogy.

128

Id. p. 329, emphasis added.

129

D&C 2: 3.

Here is the same quote from words of joseph smith to compare... Wilford woodruff diary March 10 1844: I didn't copy the entire quote just the main section.

Elijah, the spirit power & calling of Elijah is that ye have power to hold the keys of the revelations ordinances, oricles powers & endowments of the fulness of the Melchezedek Priesthood 13 & of the Kingdom of God on the Earth & to receive, obtain & perform all the ordinances belonging to the Kingdom of God even unto the sealing of the hearts of the hearts fathers unto the children & the hearts of the children unto the fathers even those who are in heaven. 14 Malachi says I will send Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come & He shall turn the hearts of the Fathers to the Children and the hearts of the Children to the Fathers lest I come & smite the earth with a Curse, Now what I am after is the knowledge of God & I take my own Course to obtain it, what are we to understand by this in the last days, in the days of Noah God destroyed the world by a flood & has promised to destroy it by fire in the last days 15 but before it took place Elijah should first come & turn the hearts of the Fathers to the Children &c now comes the point what is this office & work of Elijah, it is one of the greatest & most important subjects that God has revealed, He should send Elijah to seal the children to the fathers & fathers to the Children, Now was this merely confined to the living to settle difficulties with families on earth, by no means, it was a far greater work Elijah what would you do if you was here would you confine confine your work to the living alone. No I would confine refer you to the scriptures whare the subject is manifest, i.e, without us they could not be made perfect, nor we without them, 16 the fathers without the children nor the children without the fathers. I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will receive it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeam our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the

Widtsoe, John A.; Whitney, Orson F.; Roberts, B. H.; Smith, Joseph Fielding; Smith, Joseph; Ehat, Andrew; Smith, Lucy Mack; Cannon, George Q.; Taylor, John (2012-02-25). Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition including the LDS Standar Works, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, History of the Church, History of Joseph by His Mother, and More (Kindle Locations 3891-3905). Packard Technologies. Kindle Edition.

Again, even thought he book of mormon may be bold it only is because it speaks in parables it is hard to see it. I think Denver could have done it more lovingly. The leaders of the church are where they are too be (steadying the ark). The Lord is in charge and has created the perfect place to help perfect his saints for Zion. Its like condemning "god" for leading the istraelites into bondage only to take them away and curse them. He knows what he is doing, he has set up circumstances for us to learn. But I can't judge if God told him to write the message to save a few souls who needed harshness so beit

But I am not denver and he can do whatever he wants .

Edited May 1, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Guest]

He needs to fire his editor & stuff.

[ElectofGod]

That was me... Never let me write a book .. I will write false doctrine AND make it look crappy.

Follow the link to pages 23-28 and it will be pretty... The actual quote is on page 27/28... But he adds to it other information before.

[Guest]

I was talking about the parts you said were from the book.

[Guest]

Whenever this topic comes up, after I sigh deeply, I always think of this scripture:

Jacob 4

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

[ElectofGod]

for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

We lose truth because we desire it. :) Yup. I just read this. Great review of Denvers book.

I believe that perversions, lack of consecration and pride caused us the loss of Joseph Smith and a forced exodus out of the territory of the United States of America. The church was sent into the wilderness to cleanse it. The Saints were blessed there, a good foundation was re-established and good things are returning and have been returning. Though many new tares have been sown, the wheat and the tares will grow together until it is time for a final cleansing and a final harvest so that Zion can be redeemed.

The book does a great job of explaining how all this can be and how it isn't a bad thing, it's just patterns repeating and that those patterns show that his people will not be forgotten and that you are foolish from dividing yourself from God's church, especially this critical time.

[Vort]

We lose truth because we desire it. :) Yup. I just read this. Great review of Denvers book.

I believe that perversions, lack of consecration and pride caused us the loss of Joseph Smith and a forced exodus out of the territory of the United States of America. The church was sent into the wilderness to cleanse it. The Saints were blessed there, a good foundation was re-established and good things are returning and have been returning. Though many new tares have been sown, the wheat and the tares will grow together until it is time for a final cleansing and a final harvest so that Zion can be redeemed.

I have no opinion on Denver what's-his-name except that he says some things that sound true and other things that sound apostate. But I pretty much agree with this opinion EoG quotes.

[Anddenex]

Holy Spirit of Promise defined in the most simple of terms:

"The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit of Promise (Acts 2:33). He confirms as acceptable to God the righteous acts, ordinances, and covenants of men. The Holy Spirit of Promise witnesses to the Father that the saving ordinances have been performed properly and that the covenants associated with them have been kept."

Key points:

1. The Holy Ghost confirms to God acts, ordinances and covenants have been done in righteousness and are acceptable before the Lord.

2. Saving ordinances have been performed properly.

I believe in the Holy Spirit of Promise, which all my ordinances have been sealed by. I also believe in a "more sure word of prophecy" by which individuals are individually declared by the Lord himself - exalted, or should be exalted if they continue in the path that lead them to such a witness. Evidence, Moses 6: 60, this is one of the most powerful verses within scripture (obviously according to the spirit within me). I asked a question to my mission president, and this was the verse he provided me. I, at first, thought he was joking and didn't understand what he meant, nor did I believe him. It wasn't until a few years ago I finally understood why this scripture was shared. This verse deals with a person receiving a "more sure word of prophecy" -- I love this verse.

In this definition supported by our Church, I don't find evidence which verifies Denver's thoughts. My thoughts...ha.

[ElectofGod]

I never noticed this verse before: D&C 76:

Celestial people.

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

Yea that definition is partially true. I am really unsure how this works. How can a man hold it when its the Holy Ghost? Does it still need to be ratified by the holy ghost if someone are acting as the holy spirit of promise (like the two scriptures below)? But than I am really confused due to a quote at the bottom of the page.

D&C124:124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you.

D&C 132:7

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

EDIT: see post below. I got my question partially answered. Now can a man hold this power.The post below defines the holy spirit of promise as the sealing power.

Edited May 2, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

http://www.bhporter.com/Porter%20PDF%20Files/the%20Holy%20Spirit%20of%20Promise.pdf

This really helps explain it.

D&C 131:5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

[Just_A_Guy]

EoG -

Many thanks for your #212 above - I'm sure trying to get that thing to format at all was a Herculean task.

I can generally see what you're getting at here--that me being sealed to my parents doesn't help me unless there's a solid chain going back all the way to a patriarch, which the Church is pretty much on board with. But it really doesn't explain to me why we supposedly need to be sealed back to Joseph Smith specifically, which is what Snuffer states is crucial if we don't want to be burned with the rest of the church.

[Just_A_Guy]

http://www.bhporter.com/Porter%20PDF%20Files/the%20Holy%20Spirit%20of%20Promise.pdf

This really helps explain it.

Precisely.

Spirit of prophecy = testimony of Jesus that comes through the Holy Ghost (see also 2 Nephi 30 or 31).

More sure word of prophecy = having your calling end election made sure, being advised of the fact by the Son Himself, and receiving the earthly priesthood ordinances that pertain to that assurance.

[Finrock]

This is to clarify where I am coming from since the topic of the OP has changed to a debate about Denver Snuffer.

I don't know what the current debate or controversy with Denver Snuffer is really about. I entered the debate speaking to the subject of the thread. I have never heard of Denver before this thread. I have never read his material unless I have read it in this thread by reading someone's post here.

I have a current temple recommend.

I attend the temple regularly.

If I were to have my calling and election made sure, I would not divulge it. Not unless I was commanded to do so by the voice of God or by the voice of His servants.

If I were to have my calling and election made sure it would be because I confessed all my sins to God and when required, to His servants here on earth. It is a fact for me that if God grants me Eternal Life, it will be because I obeyed my bishop and all of my priesthood leaders here on earth.

I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love everything about it. I know it is literally the Church of Jesus Christ. It is His Church and He is at the helm. President Monson is His mouthpiece here on this earth. President Monson has all priesthood keys required for the salvation of mankind and these keys also rest with the Quorum of the Twelve.

Mosiah 5:7-9

" 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ." (Emphasis mine)

In my opinion, King Benjamin is telling me that although I will have many names or titles, there is no other name given that will save me except for the name of Christ. I believe King Benjamin is saying that I will be given the name of Christ and when I am given the name of Christ, I should take upon me that name and be obedient to God unto the end of my life. I believe King Benjamin is telling me that if I take upon me the name of Christ, when it is given, and remain faithful to the end, that I will be found on the right hand of God. The reason that I will be found on the right hand of God will be because I will know the name by which God calls me and God will call me by the name of Christ.

Respectfully,

Finrock