Receiving the Second Comforter-Personal Visit From Christ?

[skalenfehl]

Skalenfehl, thanks for your testimony. Do you believe that you have been tasked to share your experiences? Do you believe that you've been ministered to by angels and/or the Lord? Feel free to ignore if you don't want to answer :).

Yes. Yes. I do not believe; I know.

The reason it is given, or that anyone is tasked to reveal or to declare such things is so that everyone else can know or be reminded that the same opportunity is extended to them and there is no need to wait. Anyone can have their judgment advanced. Who would NOT desire such wonderful blessings, which the Savior has labored to so freely make available to us? This is the very reason he suffered and atoned for each and every man, woman and child and what has been offered throughout six dispensations--the fullness of the gospel. The less our hearts are set upon the things of the world; the more we seek to build Zion in our lives, the sooner we experience the mighty change of heart, the clearer the path (2 Nephi 32:4-6) becomes.

[Just_A_Guy]

Joseph could keep a secret when charged to keep a secret. But he shared sooo much more. I have not shared anything that he didn't teach, nor that Nephi or the BoM prophets declared.

Perhaps, but Snuffer sure has.

Joseph Smith's public statements about the Second Comforter fill barely two pages in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Snuffer has written-what-about seven hundred pages on the topic at this point, and is now publishing Volume 5 of his collected blogs?

This is conincidental with Denver since the OP brought it up, though I feel like people keep associating what I share with him. His books only put into context what we all already have and have had since the restoration.

Then why do so many people circle the wagons and interpret my misgivings as to Snuffer personally, as an attack on the doctrines of calling and election/second comforter?

When we receive a testimony, shall we not declare it? Are we as LDS clubbish by holding our lights to the world and testifying of the Book of Mormon and of Joseph Smith and the restoration of these truths? Or do we hold our lights under bushels?

Or, as Option C, do we invoke theologically questionable interpretations of favorite scriptures in order to make ourselves a super-select "in-group" of Mormons?

It's one thing to note that the doctrine exists, and urge Church members to realize it. But, come now. The average member of the Church (including, presumably, the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve), unless he has received the second comforter, is "wild fruit" and the "foolish virgin" of which the scriptures speak, whereas Snuffer and his followers (and only them) are the tame fruit and the wise virgins?

Perhaps this is why Mormons are hated and parodied and shunned by many fellow Christians.

Some of that parody and shunning we bring upon ourselves by forced interpretation of scripture, self-righteousness, and being too quick to dismiss those of those whose paths are different. To the extent that Snuffer betrays his condescension-if not contempt-for the Church leadership and professes to have more light and knowledge than they have--well, that's just icing on the cake.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[mikbone]

The LDS doctrine is rich. There is the basic doctrine (Milk), and the more profound doctrine (Meat).

The basic doctrine is easily found and communicated through the publications and from the pulpit. The profound or deep doctrine should not be published in a public format nor discussed in frivolous meetings, websites, etc...

When we see individuals start to make public commentary on sacred subjects some of us start to feel uncomfortable.

The teachings of calling and election are well established within the Church. Denver Snuffer's book deals with the concept in detail but does not contain any information that one could not learn from the standard works.

I was not a very gifted, intelligent, or sober teenager but I knew much about the concepts of receiving ones calling and election. I remember praying as a teenager and receiving the following scriptures in response. D&C 67:10

And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

When some give the impression that Denver Snuffer is a great man that has uncovered a great secret and is right in trying to put the church as a whole back onto the straight and narrow, I feel VERY uncomfortable.

Joseph Smith revealed much to the church. Without Joseph there would be no LDS church. Joseph Spent the vast majority of his time teaching the milk and only on occasion does he comment on the meat. But in many of his revelations or sermons like the King Follett Discourse we do see shadows of the information that he understood. If Joseph Smith desired to share all the meat with us and the public, he could have but he did not for a wise purpose.

Likewise people who receive their calling and election or insight into mysteries are charged to keep their knowledge to themselves. We are not to share these sacred insights or moments with the public.

Just because the General Authorities have not written books like the second comforter doesn't mean that they haven't had sacred interviews or experiences.

Edited April 28, 2013 by mikbone

[ElectofGod]

These answers are from a non DENVER standpoint. I don't want to discuss him. Only the doctrine of the Second Comforter. Also not directed at any one person, just to all who will give their time to read it

Likewise people who receive their calling and election or insight into mysteries are charged to keep their knowledge to themselves. We are not to share these sacred insights or moments with the public.

Haha, says who? This is traditions of man. Its said NOWHERE. Whoever they are charged by to not share it, they can be just as charged to share it to ALL the world. Else Joseph, Enos, Moses, the 12 disciples, would not have.

unless he has received the second comforter, is "wild fruit" and the "foolish virgin" of which the scriptures speak, whereas Snuffer and his followers (and only them) are the tame fruit and the wise virgins?

NOONE has EVER said this on this topic...

There are two published portions of what the oil is in General Conference.

Spiritual: Conversion, Change of Heart, Remission of Sins.

Temporal: Food Storage

Well, looky, those who have a conversion to the gospel WILL do what he Lord asks of them. Thus they will make their C&E and receive the Second Comforter. Those who DONT will not. If you don't you are either 1) not converted 2) "falling away" like those who commit the unpardonable sin because you are converted

The profound or deep doctrine should not be published in a public format nor discussed in frivolous meetings, websites, etc...

You are entitled to your opinion. Yet I have read/heard of dozens of books of people who have met the savior. So, is it deep doctrine or is it not? You stated you knew about it ever since you were growing up in the Church. Than its not deep doctrine.

Benson has talk after talk after talk about the same subject so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Just because the General Authorities have not written books like the second comforter doesn't mean that they haven't had sacred interviews or experiences.

Correct.

I really don't get the issue. Were not talking about Denver. There are dozens of books on both these topics (C&E/Second Comfoter) but for some reason people have this "hate/love" relationship with Denver. What did he do thats any different?

Besides Denver can take care of himself. If he has infact received the 2nd Comforter, than he is already saved along with ALL those who have had their C&E/2nd Comfoter experience.

I am here to work out my salvation until the Lord affirms that I myself will also be saved. I DO NOT want to die without it. BECAUSE if I am not guranteed to be there when I die than how will I know I will in the next life when I have had the gospel my whole life yet was never worthy to receive my calling and election. Obviously I did not live a clean life.

People writes books about every other principle of the gospel with no fuss by others than this denver guy talks about seeing christ and everyone shirks back and calls blasphemy. I don't get it. Sounds like the pharisees to me. Like other say, there are plenty who have written similar books. I don't care what book is read, read something and study it.

The second comforter thee most important and amazing gift anyone could be offered, to meet the savior and redeemer of the world. To meet the one person who has never hated you, thought ill of you, and spilt his own blood for you.

"This hope which purifieth us", "that we shall never fall", that hope that got Joseph smith through his carthage jail and many other trials.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

If the problem is because he has said the church and people of this day are just as sinful as the Israelites, pharisees, saduccees... Than I ask have you read the book of mormon? The entire book is condemning the wicked Gentiles for their wickedness. Do you not realize WE ARE the gentiles. The members of the LDS church ARE AMONGST the gentiles who are the wicked ones in the book of mormon. That is a direct quote from Joseph Smith published in D&C.

Oh, It was packer/bednar who said we are more wicked than Sodom and Gumorah so thats not new news either.

Lets just love each other and focus on Doctrine.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

Sorry, my answers were not directed at anyone but I can't stand the statements of people saying what someone CAN and CANNOT do. That is putting limitations on God. We don't say what someone is or is not allowed to share. That is up to them and the Lord. We don't have to listen or believe it. But the Lord uses us ALL to preach repentance.

Back to the SC,

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This is the purpose of salvation.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Just_A_Guy]

unless he has received the second comforter, is "wild fruit" and the "foolish virgin" of which the scriptures speak, whereas Snuffer and his followers (and only them) are the tame fruit and the wise virgins?

NOONE has EVER said this on this topic...

Really?

Most members' paradigm ends at the temple endowment, which as I mentioned earlier is only a similitude of a very real path back into our Savior's embrace [presumably culminating in the receipt of the Second Comforter. --JAG]. It is to become a wise virgin; a tame fruit (Jacob 7), entering into His rest while still in mortality, membership in the church of Enoch/Firstborn.

There are two published portions of what the oil is in General Conference.

Spiritual: Conversion, Change of Heart, Remission of Sins.

Temporal: Food Storage

Well, looky, those who have a conversion to the gospel WILL do what he Lord asks of them. Thus they will make their C&E and receive the Second Comforter. Those who DONT will not. If you don't you are either 1) not converted 2) "falling away" like those who commit the unpardonable sin because you are converted.

Ah. So those who don't receive these blessings in mortality are not converted, are in apostasy, and have committed the unpardonable sin.

But there's absolutely no danger that the doctrine of C&E/Second Comforter can lead to clubbishness, clannishness, or a superiority complex over the rest of the Church. None at all.

I really don't get the issue. Were not talking about Denver. There are dozens of books on both these topics (C&E/Second Comforter) but for some reason people have this "hate/love" relationship with Denver. What did he do thats any different?

You mean, besides hopping onto the bandwagon of an excommunicated gay historian to make positive assertions that specific general authorities never saw Jesus? Besides, using that same historian as a basis for saying that the supposed transfiguration of Brigham Young during the 1844 succession crisis never happened? Besides, expressing doubt as to whether Young and the Twelve really and truly did receive the keys that Joseph held? Besides, in a single breath rebuking them for supposedly living in an echo chamber, and also for using non-Mormon firms to get a sense for what the membership of the Church is thinking and experiencing? Besides, after all this, accusing those who dare to disagree with him as (his words, here) lacking "testicular fortitude"?

Snuffer can say what he wants about me. I believe I've been relatively straightforward here about my numerous moral failings. But, you know what? Start talking like that about the prophet of God, and you're going to get called on it--as Snuffer has been, here and elsewhere.

If Denver Snuffer is irrelevant to the conversation, why do his acolytes keep defending him?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[mikbone]

You are entitled to your opinion. Yet I have read/heard of dozens of books of people who have met the savior. So, is it deep doctrine or is it not? You stated you knew about it ever since you were growing up in the Church. Than its not deep doctrine.

Benson has talk after talk after talk about the same subject so I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Receiving one's calling and election is a profound moment. The doctrine does not fall under the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Just because dozens of people have written books about how they have met the savior does not mean that this is a correct activity. It is fine to write about the doctrine of Calling and Election but to share one's personal knowledge in a public format is undoubtedly unwise.

The apostles are special witnesses of God. Do you see them boasting of their righteousness and spiritual accomplishments?

I know that all the Presidents of the Church have had profound experiences that they have not shared with the church in a public format. I would bet that Joseph Smith withheld from the church 100x the knowledge that he received during his life as Prophet.

I believe that we should look to the Lord's anointed for our examples. If the prophet and apostles keep their sacred experiences as sacred then shouldn't we do the same?

When members read material and come to the conclusion that 1) laypeople are receiving greater revelations that the Lord's anointed or 2) that it is ok to reveal sacred material to the public. Then it is my opinion that either the material that they are reading is incorrect, or that they mis-understand the intent of the material.

[tumbledquartz]

I am here to work out my salvation until the Lord affirms that I myself will also be saved. I DO NOT want to die without it. BECAUSE if I am not guranteed to be there when I die than how will I know I will in the next life when I have had the gospel my whole life yet was never worthy to receive my calling and election. Obviously I did not live a clean life.

This quote really disturbs me. You sound like a controlling person who hasn't learned to trust God and His promises. Everyone who dies without their calling and election made sure "obviously" didn't live a clean life?

Sorry, I just can't accept that. I don't think you have to have your C&E to receive salvation in the highest kingdom. I think it is probably more of a burden than a blessing in some ways. And getting to that point still doesn't guarantee you salvation. It just guarantees that you will either be exalted or end up in outer darkness if you fall away afterward.

[ElectofGod]

Really?

Like I said, he did NOT even state the name of Denver in that sentence. Now the other part of what he said is entirely differnt.

Ah. So those who don't receive these blessings in mortality are not converted, are in apostasy, and have committed the unpardonable sin.

But there's absolutely no danger that the doctrine of C&E/Second Comforter can lead to clubbishness, clannishness, or a superiority complex over the rest of the Church. None at all.

I phrased that sentence horribly. Let me try again. You cannot commit the unpardonable sin except by blaspheming the holy ghost when it has given to you the blessings to know the savior. I said those who are converted WILL at somepoint. Yes. I do not know when that point is. I had a post a few pages back that defined it as "this life" not mortality. If I used mortality, I meant this life. This life does extend to the spirit world ("all those who would have received it if they were permitted to tarry")

That is not what skal said though. And many believe that way. I have yet to decide fully on this subject for myself.

You mean, besides hopping onto the bandwagon of an excommunicated gay historian to make positive assertions that specific general authorities never saw Jesus? Besides, using that same historian as a basis for saying that the supposed transfiguration of Brigham Young during the 1844 succession crisis never happened? Besides, expressing doubt as to whether Young and the Twelve really and truly did receive the keys that Joseph held? Besides, in a single breath rebuking them for supposedly living in an echo chamber, and also for using non-Mormon firms to get a sense for what the membership of the Church is thinking and experiencing? Besides, after all this, accusing those who dare to disagree with him as (his words, here) lacking "testicular fortitude"?

I have not read Denvers book talking about the apostasy of these things. So if he did it doesn't affect me. Either way the leaders were not perfect. The Lord chastised them in D&C. BUT I do believe they are inspired. So I may believe there are lots of wickedness inside and out of the church, I probably won't read Denvers book on it unless the Spirit tells me at a later date to do so. (Passing the Heavenly gift) Right now it only led me to read Second Comfoter and Beloved Enos. (still haven't finished them) So I won't say anything else since you may know more about some of these things than I.

Snuffer can say what he wants about me. I believe I've been relatively straightforward here about my numerous moral failings. But, you know what? Start talking like that about the prophet of God, and you're going to get called on it--as Snuffer has been, here and elsewhere.

Ok. I can see this. I do agree with parts of what he has said even about them, yet I do agree he could have said it in a different manner as its the Lord's place to do so. I don't know why he did what he did nor do I care to find out.

If Denver Snuffer is irrelevant to the conversation, why do his acolytes keep defending him?

I can't answer for them. But I have been around them enough to guess. He is a good person with good intentions. His writings are not for everyone that is for sure. The Lord uses different people to help them learn as they speak to specific people.All I know about Denver is what a person in my ward has told me who was converted to the Gospel because of Denvers book of mormon study class. I just know he is an entirely different person than his "controverisal books" Perhaps they are people who know him or agree with him. And some have even gone on to receive their own C&E due to his book.

Either way like you said. Our salvation is not based on a man. Only on what we become. We can still receive our C&E without him.

So why do I keep bringing him up lol when I say I don't want to talk about him :lol:

I don't know.

[ElectofGod]

Receiving one's calling and election is a profound moment. The doctrine does not fall under the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Just because dozens of people have written books about how they have met the savior does not mean that this is a correct activity. It is fine to write about the doctrine of Calling and Election but to share one's personal knowledge in a public format is undoubtedly unwise.

Holland just shared his in conference. "I have the sure word of prophecy as pual described it" (I can get exact quote if you wish) The entire book of mormon is about people who talked with Christ. Granted, they are written more subtly. Either way I do believe they should be shared only as directed. But that is not up to me to decide. And the story of moses.

The apostles are special witnesses of God. Do you see them boasting of their righteousness and spiritual accomplishments?

Nope. Nor did I on any account I read about someone having it or from the individual them self. They shared it out of respect for myself and guiding me along the way. Not to say it doesn't happen. Judas denied the very Christ and put him to shame. I bet it does happen.

I know that all the Presidents of the Church have had profound experiences that they have not shared with the church in a public format. I would bet that Joseph Smith withheld from the church 100x the knowledge that he received during his life as Prophet.

I agree.

I believe that we should look to the Lord's anointed for our examples. If the prophet and apostles keep their sacred experiences as sacred then shouldn't we do the same?

The endowment states. "We are anointed hereafter to become kings and priests unto the most high God" I and they are all anointed. Now their calling is different than mine. What are you referring to keeping sacred? Haight, as i quoted earlier, talked about seeing the savior himself while in the hospital bed. The actual event of what happens is one thing to share. But I have not heard this discussed by anyone who has stated they saw Christ.

When members read material and come to the conclusion that 1) laypeople are receiving greater revelations that the Lord's anointed or 2) that it is ok to reveal sacred material to the public. Then it is my opinion that either the material that they are reading is incorrect, or that they mis-understand the intent of the material.

Things should be kept sacred always. I do agree here. But its up to the spirit to tell us what is and what is appropriate for our situations. Are we not to govern ourselves? The purpose of the prophet is to preach repentance and raise a warning voice to a wicked generation they are not to tell us what to do in all things. Once we receieve their witness we should govern ourselves through the spirit. (not to tell others what to do in their stewardships)

I know I always bring up what i disagree in your post, But I do agree with lots of it.

[ElectofGod]

This quote really disturbs me. You sound like a controlling person who hasn't learned to trust God and His promises. Everyone who dies without their calling and election made sure "obviously" didn't live a clean life?

Sorry, I just can't accept that. I don't think you have to have your C&E to receive salvation in the highest kingdom. I think it is probably more of a burden than a blessing in some ways. And getting to that point still doesn't guarantee you salvation. It just guarantees that you will either be exalted or end up in outer darkness if you fall away afterward.

Its definitely a burden. But salvation is not a cheap experience. We are all here at a great risk. I would rather risk it all to progress than to risk only a portion and fall short of my privileges. There is MUCH progression to do after you get to that point. "More intelligence one gains through their faithfulness and obedience to the laws of heaven will have the greater advantage in the life to come" (D&C 130:?, paraphrase)

Like I said in an earlier post its skal who says it must be mortality. I personally feel many will receive the blessings beyond the grave due to the sealing of the family. And this life extending to the spirit world. I actually feel God's plan is even more loving than what I just stated but will stick to what I can backup mostly with scriptures.

I do trust God, and he has promised to give us our C&E therefore I seek after it. Joseph smith said that if every saint (in the meeting he was in) would live up to the things I[JS] have taught you it would be our privilege to have the veil rent today.

Don't get me wrong, I am seeking after thee most important attribute. I pick what the spirit directs me to improve and I work on it. Right now its charity and "what lack I yet" It has truly opened my eyes which I am most grateful for. Without charity we are nothing.

Starting to think this post sounds very self centered. :S... I apologize for that. Noone has to know what a c&E is to receive it. (I beileve anyways) It comes to ALL those who become what the Lord expects them to. "When they are proved in the eyes of God" I have no clue what that means for each person. I only know what the Lord is getting me to do so I can do it for myself.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

Receiving one's calling and election is a profound moment. The doctrine does not fall under the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

I forgot to respond to the most important comment you made.

It IS the first princples of the gospel. There is a qoute about the 5th ordinance of the gospel but its similar to the first one quoted in other areas.

Joseph Smith ("King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345):

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,... the same as all Gods have done before you..."

This is life eternal to know God. Eitehr you believe eternal life begins when were in the CK thus you know him by being with him and KNOWING HIM, or you believe we are in it learning to know him. Granted you may interpret this differently. I wish i could find his other quote. When you know him and see him you have made your c&E made sure already. As seeing him is a step AFTER you have had your C&E. Sometimes they can happen at the same time. Exceptions may occur too.

CK people:

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

When one receives that perfect day they have the veil rent and opened unto them. Whether in this life or the next.

Edited April 29, 2013 by ElectofGod

[mikbone]

Holland just shared his in conference. "I have the sure word of prophecy as pual described it" (I can get exact quote if you wish) The entire book of mormon is about people who talked with Christ. Granted, they are written more subtly. Either way I do believe they should be shared only as directed. But that is not up to me to decide. And the story of moses.

It is Holland's calling to be a special witness of Christ. Yet you may notice that Holland felt the need to state his witness in an indirect manner.

You may ask why? Why was Holland not more direct? Why did he not explain his witness in detail? Why did he refer to his witness the way that he did?

These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the “more sure word of prophecy" What was once a tiny seed of belief for me has grown into the tree of life, so if your faith is a little tested in this or any season, I invite you to lean on mine. I know this work is God’s very truth, and I know that only at our peril would we allow doubt or devils to sway us from its path. Hope on. Journey on. Honestly acknowledge your questions and your concerns, but first and forever fan the flame of your faith, because all things are possible to them that believe. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Lord I Believe April 2013 General Conference Sunday afternoon session

It IS the first princples of the gospel. There is a qoute about the 5th ordinance of the gospel but its similar to the first one quoted in other areas.

Faith is the first principle of the gospel. True Faith will lead one to their Calling and Election. But when one has had their C&E their Faith has been converted into Knowledge.

Edited April 29, 2013 by mikbone

[ElectofGod]

It is Holland's calling to be a special witness of Christ. Yet you may notice that Holland felt the need to state his witness in an indirect manner.

You may ask why? Why was Holland not more direct? Why did he not explain his witness in detail? Why did he refer to his witness the way that he did?

Thats the great question now isn't it . I wonder myself. Especially when Joseph, Hyum, Loreno Snow all talked about seeing Christ.

Hollands was pretty direct. He stated I have had my C&E. He did not say though whether he saw Christ. Eying gave a similar indirect one too.

Most likely experiences mean nothing to us. Its the doctrine of "why" that matters. I could speculate on an answer and get no where.

[Drpepper]

I must be living under a rock, I had never heard of this guy until I found this post. I had to go do some research to see what all the commotion was about. I haven't seen one person cause so much division in conversation since alma chapter 30

[skalenfehl]

I am only posting to clarify a misunderstanding. Please note that I make every effort to select my wording so there can be no misunderstanding or jumping to conclusions. For example:

Ah. So those who don't receive these blessings in mortality are not converted, are in apostasy, and have committed the unpardonable sin.

You jumped to this conclusion, which I did not imply.

C&E and 2nd Comforter are not the same principle/event. One does, however lead to the other. There are quite a few principles and ordinances of the gospel beyond that of the first four, which we are all too familiar. Further into our progress is anointing, endowment, ministering of (being taught by) angels , power in the priesthood, calling & election, receiving Second Comforter, being "endowed" from on high, Translation, Resurrection, etc.

This is the path to Zion (and 144,000), whether unto ourselves or physically (Enoch).

This entire process or path to Zion/membership of the church of the Firstborn ("fullness" of the gospel/"fullness" of the Father) is a process of sanctification. Most members' paradigm ends at the temple endowment, which as I mentioned earlier is only a similitude of a very real path back into our Savior's embrace. It is to become a wise virgin; a tame fruit (Jacob 7), entering into His rest while still in mortality, membership in the church of Enoch/Firstborn.

This is what the Lord offered the Israelites through Moses and the early saints through Joseph Smith--to establish Zion in all its power and glory on the earth. It is what He offered to Enoch in the Old Testament and because they received him, they received Jehovah. And He walked with them and taught them the higher principles unto translation.

Now can each member today truly expand their paradigm such that their faith is sufficient to experience great miracles, wonders, ministering of angels, moving mountains, turning rivers from their course, defeating worldly armies, etc? This is what our Savior has offered to us, his covenant people since the beginning.

3 Nephi 10:4 O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.

5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.

7 But if not, O house of Israel, the places of your dwellings shall become desolate until the time of the fulfilling of the covenant to your fathers.

Soon, very soon, Zion will triumph. And only those who have diligently heeded the words contained in the New covenant will abide the day.

This does not imply that those who have not received greater blessings are not on the path to receiving them. Joseph Smith's brother, Alvin, died before having been baptized and yet in a vision, Joseph saw his brother crowned with glory in the Celestial kingdom.

D&C 137:7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Those who diligently and with full purpose of heart labor now and continually, putting all the world behind them, having parted the veil sooner, rather than later...well are they not wise? Indeed they are. Let us all be wise, wherever we are on our own path. If in mortality, then how much greater is our joy?

This and more has been my desire and my labor in my own life since I was a young missionary over twenty years ago and long before I ever knew anything about Denver Snuffer. I am still nowhere near perfect. I am a wicked and wretched man and will be until through the grace of Christ I am perfected. This is what He commanded of each of us--to be perfect even as He or His Father in heaven are perfect.

Wise virgins (virgins implying pure/chaste/undefiled, etc) continually fill their lamps. They are on different points of the same journey, but they are diligent and obedient and penitent. They are humble, charitable, peaceful and meek. And when we shall see Christ, we shall see Him as He is for we shall be like Him. Does trying to be like my Savior make me "self righteous?" If I have been told to testify mightily of such truths, does that make me better than someone else? Just thinking about this truly makes me shudder. I have tried so hard in my life to strip myself of all ungodliness, of all sin, of every worldly thing because nothing matters more to me than being worthy of my Savior. So when I bear my heart and my soul, it is not to boast or to brag. It is only to say, if a flawed and weak and fallible man like me can testify plainly that such things are possible because they are happening to me, then they can happen to anybody.

Some are farther along the path, whether because they have tarried on the earth longer, etc. Some are just beginning their journey. The point is they have entered in at the way and are not idle. Whether a wise virgin has a few drops or a full lamp, as long as they have been diligent, they are wise and this does NOT imply that the one with fewer drops is apostate or foolish or has committed any unpardonable sin. I am not going about looking in the lamps of others. Your lamp is your business. I am only endeavoring to shed light on the path where I stand; where I am presently walking so others with the same desires who are farther behind me, who have just entered in at the way, or for whatever reason are struggling, have become idle, or whatever, can see that there is more to experience if it is their desire. Likewise, I am looking to those who have already walked where I presently am walking and I see that it is possible to go farther. A dear man named John Pontius has been here before. Denver Snuffer has been here before. Nephi has been here before. Many others have been here before. Jesus Christ was the first and He said, "Come, follow me."

Edited April 29, 2013 by skalenfehl

[Finrock]

Good morning mikbone! I hope you had a great weekend. :)

You may ask why? Why was Holland not more direct? Why did he not explain his witness in detail? Why did he refer to his witness the way that he did?

The danger that I can see is that when one has powerful spiritual experiences they may be tempted and Satan certainly will be working to temp a person to believe that they are special in the sense that God respects them above others.

I believe that is why we are counselled in scripture that when it is all said and done, if we don't have charity we are nothing. The antedote to pride and the danger of being steered off course is the pure love of God.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

I agree Finrock.

I think its been an interesting conversation. I will add another thought. We are infact all on a different path in life. Everyone was sent here for a different reason. We must seek out what the Lord wants us to do.

For some it may not be the time to seek for these blessings, life is so individual that perhaps its possible we overlook whats important at the moment. There is a time and place for all things. Its good to keep things like making our C&E and SC in the back of our head but we shouldn't forget the important things like having Charity.

Its up to us to ask God what his plan is for US. Than follow it, than come what may and love it. "it will all work out"

[Finrock]

Connected to my other thought I also wanted to add that as disciples of Jesus Christ the reason why we should testify or share experiences is so as to draw people to the Savior. If we draw people to ourselves then we are being prideful. If we are sharing experiences in order to gratify our own vain ambitions, then we are being prideful and we are doing what is wrong.

Once we have saved ourselves by faith and by obedience to the Savior, then we ought to be going about testifying to all that the Savior Jesus Christ can save them too! This can entail us testifying of us seeing the Savior but it will be so as to invite others to come to Him.

I have not had a personal visit from Christ. But I know this is a true principle. We ought not be afraid of seeking after this gift and speaking about it because ultimately it leads to us becoming all that the Father would have us be.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

I must be living under a rock, I had never heard of this guy until I found this post. I had to go do some research to see what all the commotion was about. I haven't seen one person cause so much division in conversation since alma chapter 30

Thats because he never publicized any of his books. They are all by word of mouth. Now though everyone seems to have heard from someone else. "I had to go do some research to see what all the commotion was about." :lol:

Seriously, I don't think even JFS was this controversial when he stated at a BYU seminar that only 5% of LDS would make it to the Celestial kingdom People were quite upset.

[Finrock]

Hi ElectofGod. I hope you are doing well! :)

There is a time and place for all things. Its good to keep things like making our C&E and SC in the back of our head but we shouldn't forget the important things like having Charity.

I believe having your C&E and having charity are connected. I don't think you can have one without the other. I believe charity can be used to test ourselves and by which others can test us.

I agree with your post. In the past I used to come to the forums and based on my own words I was here to primarily to take part in good intellectual discussions and to share and to learn. I realize now that I can't be that passive. The battle against evil is real and any forum, whether online or otherwise, the covenants I have made apply and I am charged with testifying and helping to bringing people to the Savior, wherever that might be.

My point is that I agree that we are all where we are and I like the message from last conference where Elder Holland (I believe it was Holland) spoke about us being steadfast and faithful to the truth that we have and that we know. That is our responsibility and if we remain faithful to where we are at, God has promised that He will add to that and by and by all who remain faithful and diligent will enjoy the fruits of eternal life.

From Elder Holland:

"Observation number one regarding this account is that when facing the challenge of faith, the father asserts his strength first and only then acknowledges his limitation. His initial declaration is affirmative and without hesitation: “Lord, I believe.” I would say to all who wish for more faith, remember this man! In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience in mortality, the spiritual equivalent of this boy’s affliction or this parent’s desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come and issues surface, the resolution of which is not immediately forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes. It was of this very incident, this specific miracle, that Jesus said, “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”6 The size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue—it is the integrity you demonstrate toward the faith you do have and the truth you already know" (Source; Emphasis mine)

Regards,

Finrock

Edited April 29, 2013 by Finrock
Added quote by Elder Holland

[Smeagums]

Skalenfehl, I trust you mean well; but the above could be read as betraying a sort of "clubbishness" and condescension towards the hoi polloi of the Church (we're the foolish virgins? And the untamed fruit? Really?) that make me suspicious of Snuffer and his followers, and leery of these kinds of conversations generally.

Wasn't it Joseph Smith who said that one of the reasons we don't receive more revelations is because, as a people, we don't know how to keep a secret? Why, then, has Snuffer taken it upon himself to spoon-feed doctrine that should be coming through the whisperings of the Spirit and through prolonged wrestlings with the scriptures? Why isn't personal revelation sufficient to suit Snuffer's purposes?

The Book of Mormon, Bible and writings of Joseph Smith are full of sacred experiences. If someone converses with the Lord in the flesh they should and will keep it sacred and secret unless the Lord says they can share certain aspects or a minimal amount of details. Declaring to people that you've seen Christ in the flesh is perfectly normal and follows the teachings throughout the scriptures.

I don't see how saying "I know Christ lives for I have conversed with Him in the flesh" would take away from that experience. If anything, it lifts others up and gives them hope to seek for the same thing. I think Denver is sincere and has conversed with the Lord. Read his books before judging him. His books have brought me closer to the Lord, have caused me to increase my prayers, scripture reading, offerings to those in need and understanding to follow my Savior and only Him.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Anyone lay member of the Church, man or woman, can receive Christ and become a prophet or prophetess. In fact my wife met a prophetess in the Salt Lake Temple, our first visit there, who said some things to her that no one not even her or I would know.

I am finishing Denver's "Come Let Us Adore Him", which is his testimony of Christ, and would highly recommend it.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Smeagums

[Just_A_Guy]

Some are farther along the path, whether because they have tarried on the earth longer, etc. Some are just beginning their journey. The point is they have entered in at the way and are not idle. Whether a wise virgin has a few drops or a full lamp, as long as they have been diligent, they are wise and this does NOT imply that the one with fewer drops is apostate or foolish or has committed any unpardonable sin.

I appreciate the clarification.

Likewise, I am looking to those who have already walked where I presently am walking and I see that it is possible to go farther. . . . Denver Snuffer has been here before. Nephi has been here before. Many others have been here before. Jesus Christ was the first and He said, "Come, follow me."

Minor correction: Denver Snuffer claims he has been there before. And he also seems to want us to think that, generally speaking, the Church leadership hasn't.

[Just_A_Guy]

The Book of Mormon, Bible and writings of Joseph Smith are full of sacred experiences. If someone converses with the Lord in the flesh they should and will keep it sacred and secret unless the Lord says they can share certain aspects or a minimal amount of details. Declaring to people that you've seen Christ in the flesh is perfectly normal and follows the teachings throughout the scriptures.

I don't see how saying "I know Christ lives for I have conversed with Him in the flesh" would take away from that experience. If anything, it lifts others up and gives them hope to seek for the same thing.

If openly speaking of such experiences is "perfectly normal" then why don't the GAs do it? Why does Elder Holland cite to a (superficially) relatively obscure passage in one of Peter's epistles rather than just coming out and saying "He's real, I've seen Him"?

Does Snuffer have understanding that Holland lacks? Does Snuffer have keys to a ministry that Holland lacks?

Or does Holland have understanding that Snuffer lacks?

I think Denver is sincere and has conversed with the Lord.

Maybe; but his later conduct--as partially outlined in this previous post of mine (last three paragraphs)--does not seem to comport with what you would expect of someone who had had that kind of experience.

Read his books before judging him. His books have brought me closer to the Lord, have caused me to increase my prayers, scripture reading, offerings to those in need and understanding to follow my Savior and only Him.

Denver Snuffer is the sum total of all of his writings. His blogs and his attitude towards the Church leadership, or his incivility with his critics, cannot be disregarded; however much he may wish for us to do so.

The fact that Sidney Rigdon, William Marks, John W. Taylor, and Matthias Cowley made rousing and perhaps even edifying sermons at one point in their lives--and even, in at least some cases, were privy to marvelous revelations--does not excuse their disobedience later in life.