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skeptictank

What Does It Mean To Be Christian?

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Basically the title says it all. I'm a christian and am extremely cautious regarding organizational religion. I disagree with a lot of mormon doctrine (but I still love[agape] you guys) and I wondered (since you clearly think you are christian) what you mean when you say that you are christian.

In Christ's Love Always,

Skeptictank

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Basically the title says it all. I'm a christian and am extremely cautious regarding organizational religion. I disagree with a lot of mormon doctrine (but I still love[agape] you guys) and I wondered (since you clearly think you are christian) what you mean when you say that you are christian.

In Christ's Love Always,

Skeptictank

I would be more than happy to answer your question, but before I do could you please answer a couple of mine so I can understand better where you are coming from?

1) What do you mean by "organizational religon"? Are you talking about specific Christian sects or churches ie: Prodestants, Lutherens, Catholics, Evangelicals, Bible churches, New World, etc., etc., etc., etc.? And why do you not trust them or are "extremely cautious" of them?

2)What is your definition of a Christian?

Thank you....I am looking forward to your answers.....

Your's in Christ,

Brother Dorsey

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Wiseguys

(sung to the tune of Rawhide)

Trollin', trollin', trollin',

keep them anti's trollin',

keep them anti's trollin',

wiseguys!

They say that they still love us,

just want to be above us,

and show us all the errors of our ways.

They claim that we're not Christians,

we really don't know Jesus,

and only want to prove how we are wrong.

(chorus)

Move 'em on, .... head 'em off!

head 'em off, .... move 'em on!

move 'em on ..... head 'em off!

All of these wiseguys!

They say they want to help us,

that we worship BY and JS,

they show their ignorance of us in post #1.

These wiseguys don't know nothin' 'bout us,

only what they read from anti's,

they think they can come shake our testimonies.

(chorus)

Move 'em on, ... head 'em off!

head 'em off, ... move 'em on!

move 'em on, ... head 'em off!

all of these wiseguys!!!!!!!!

(end of song)

(copyright pending, not to be used without my permission)

I think it's funny when these clowns come here and immediately put their feet in their mouths. They would be better served if they would come in, hang out, for a while, learn just a little about us, before they start going off half-cocked about how we are so obviously brain-washed and misled in our religion. If you're not one of that type Septictank, prove me wrong. Hang out for a while, do a LOT of reading, ask honest questions, not the ones given to you by those who want to 'minister' to us.

If you really love us (the mouth agape thing does nothing for your credibility), then it would behoove you to actually know something about us before you go on the attack. I know, I know, you came in here loaded with scriptures taken out of context to show us how we are wrong, but those scriptures really do nothing to convince us of anything, since many here can show you how you misread them, and can justify our beliefs using those same biblical scriptures. Most of us won't bother with you, but that doesn't mean we couldn't do it if we were so inclined.

Just as a side note, is this some new 'ministry' that's starting? It seems to me that these 'Christians' or EV's have been coming here more lately to try out their new-found 'witnessing' techniques. How Christian of them to try out their new techniques by trying to tear down others' Christian belief systems. Maybe it's a result of recent national prominence of lds people, and they want to nip it in the bud before their power base erodes.

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I would be more than happy to answer your question, but before I do could you please answer a couple of mine so I can understand better where you are coming from?

1) What do you mean by "organizational religon"? Are you talking about specific Christian sects or churches ie: Prodestants, Lutherens, Catholics, Evangelicals, Bible churches, New World, etc., etc., etc., etc.? And why do you not trust them or are "extremely cautious" of them?

This is a recent trend. People are no longing askewing certain sects, but any traditional church structure at all. They meet in house churches, or claim they will just worship God on their own. I try to tell them that if they do not like things to be organized, most churches are no serious threat! :P

Eventually these anti-orgs become churches--but they are "nondenominational." Quite often this means they are a denomination with only one congregation (ward). They then develop "loose associations," which, over time, become very denomination-like.

Bottom-line: We hate organizations and denominations, so we'll organize a new one. :blink:

2)What is your definition of a Christian?

Let's loosen this up and say that there will be Christians in every level of heaven. So, what are some key behaviors, disciplines, practices, and beliefs that we can embrace, that will put us on a track to greater favor with God? There's a question I can sink my teeth into.

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Guest MrsS

John Doe posted:

Wiseguys

(sung to the tune of Rawhide)

Trollin', trollin', trollin',

keep them anti's trollin',

keep them anti's trollin',

wiseguys!

They say that they still love us,

just want to be above us,

and show us all the errors of our ways.

They claim that we're not Christians,

we really don't know Jesus,

and only want to prove how we are wrong.

(chorus)

Move 'em on, .... head 'em off!

head 'em off, .... move 'em on!

move 'em on ..... head 'em off!

All of these wiseguys!

They say they want to help us,

that we worship BY and JS,

they show their ignorance of us in post #1.

These wiseguys don't know nothin' 'bout us,

only what they read from anti's,

they think they can come shake our testimonies.

(chorus)

Move 'em on, ... head 'em off!

head 'em off, ... move 'em on!

move 'em on, ... head 'em off!

all of these wiseguys!!!!!!!!

(end of song)

(copyright pending, not to be used without my permission)

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Anti-Mormon ShamanPosted Image and Ugly Anti-Troll PriestessPosted Image are on the alert to get rid of the Anti's and Trolls.

The name Septic Tank - says it all too! Posted Image

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Thanks for the link PC. It leads to the homepage. I look forward to reading some of that material. :)

===

Hello skeptictank,

You said that you are a Christian and are extremely cautious of organizational religion. I'm sure we'll get there as we go, but I look forward to your definition of these terms. Welcome to LDS Talk. :)

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I'm disappointed in you guys. Why assume it's a troll? Just answer the question -- briefly, if you're concerned about sowing seeds by the wayside or in stoney places (today's Sunday School lesson - wink). Let the conversation develop and get to know the newbie before you judge. You can always throw the troll line and ignore poster if it becomes a problem, but I see nothing particularly trollish in the original post.

Skeptic,

I'll answer a modified form of your question (cause it's easier and I'm a little lazy). What do I think a Christian is? (and as a bonus, I'll tell you why I fit the description!)

I believe a Christian is a person who recognizes Jesus Christ as the Son of God (not just a good man or a prophet, and certainly not a legendary figure or mythological figure). A Christian believes at least some form of the Bible, both old and new testaments (I accept both the literal and figurative interpreters here, as well as believers of apocrypha and non-standard versions of the text). A Christian knows that all men are sinners and that no matter what good deeds they perform and no matter what commandments they keep, they still fall short of being clean or fit for God's rewarding afterlife (again, there are several interpretations here - "heaven" or "kingdom" or other names) unless assisted by Jesus Christ. A Christian recognizes that Jesus Christ is the only way that his sins can be totally forgiven (though there are variations here, too - faith alone, grace, baptism, etc.).

That's about it. I guess my definition is pretty broad. I even believe a person can be a Christian and yet reject Christ's atonement - just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to use it.

Now, I do not believe that just anyone meeting these very loose standards is right enough to merit what I believe to be Heavenly Father's goals and desires for us are. Just meeting my definition of Christian is not enough to pass go and earn your $200.

I am a Christian because I know that Jesus is the Son of God. He was born of Mary, a human being, and she was the literal mother of Jesus. Jesus' father is Heavenly Father. He was no ordinary man, but rather a begotten Son of the Father. Jesus knew who He was, and was able to do all that He did while in this life because of His divinity.

I believe the Bible to be a reasonably accurate record of Heavenly Father's dealings with mankind, especially with the house of Israel. Many parts of it were divinely inspired and recorded by prophets. I accept other writings as also divinely inspired, and believe there will yet come to light many other records of the Lord's dealings with His people.

I believe that by our nature, we are sinful beings. We are not born already tainted, but as we grow up and make choices, all people fail to remain sinless. Selfishness, greed, sloth, lust, and other sins are so natural to us, that we all fall short of perfection.

In order to be forgiven for our sins, we must repent. Repentance involves first of all, the recognition that we have sinned and an understanding of the principle or commandment we have violated. Next, we must ask forgiveness from God and specifically ask Jesus Christ's atonement to cover our sin. If possible, we must make restitution - this may include paying for something we have stolen or publicly admitting that a rumor we started was not true. We must also desire and honestly attempt to never commit that sin again, for as long as we live.

I believe that Heavenly Father's ideals for us include a successful navigation of this earth life and that the natural reward for the learning, growth, and self-mastery we gain in this life is greater responsibility in the hereafter. We traverse this mortal existence in order to gain an education as well as to be tested. The test is really just to see if we will recognize the truth of the gospel and choose to apply it in our lives.

So, Skeptic, are you a Christian by my definition? How does your definition differ from mine? Would I pass as a Christian by your definition?

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Yeah. Maybe you missed the part where Septictank is recommending anti-Mormon books to people who are looking for help in understanding the BoM? If it looks like a troll, sounds like a troll, smells like a troll, I'll assume it's a troll until proven otherwise. If you want to toss your pearls to swine, be my guest. BTW, the name should have been a tipoff as to the intentions of the person. I mean, who comes in here with good intentions with a name reminiscent of a sewage system?

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skep·tic /ˈskɛptɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[skep-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.

2. a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.

3. a person who doubts the truth of a religion, esp. Christianity, or of important elements of it.

4. (initial capital letter) Philosophy. a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.

b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

–adjective 5. pertaining to skeptics or skepticism; skeptical.

6. (initial capital letter) pertaining to the Skeptics.

Also, sceptic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1565–75; < LL scepticus thoughtful, inquiring (in pl. Scepticī the Skeptics) < Gk skeptikós, equiv. to sképt(esthai) to consider, examine (akin to skopeǐn to look; see -scope) + -ikos -ic]

—Synonyms 3. doubter. See atheist.

—Antonyms 3. believer.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source skep·tic also scep·tic (skěp'tĭk) Pronunciation Key

n.

One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

One inclined to skepticism in religious matters.

Philosophy

often Skeptic An adherent of a school of skepticism.

Skeptic A member of an ancient Greek school of skepticism, especially that of Pyrrho of Elis (360?-272? B.C.).

[Latin Scepticus, disciple of Pyrrho of Elis, from Greek Skeptikos, from skeptesthai, to examine; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source

skeptic

1587, "member of an ancient Gk. school that doubted the possibility of real knowledge," from Fr. sceptique, from L. scepticus, from Gk. skeptikos (pl. Skeptikoi "the Skeptics"), lit. "inquiring, reflective," the name taken by the disciples of the Gk. philosopher Pyrrho (c.360-c.270 B.C.E.), from skeptesthai "to reflect, look, view" (see scope (1)). The extended sense of "one with a doubting attitude" first recorded 1615. The sk- spelling is an early 17c. Gk. revival and is preferred in U.S.

"Skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found." [Miguel de Unamuno, "Essays and Soliloquies," 1924]

American Psychological Association (APA):

skeptic. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved March 26, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeptic

Chicago Manual Style (CMS):

skeptic. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeptic (accessed: March 26, 2007).

Modern Language Association (MLA):

"skeptic." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 26 Mar. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeptic>.

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Christians are all those who take upon them the name of Christ and believe in His Divinity and Atonement. There should be no effort made to divide them based on their understanding of that Divinity or the Doctrines of His Gospel. Let them all be called Christians whether Jew or Gentile, Protestant or Restorationist, a man who claims to worship Christ should be allowed as much and be called a Christian.

-a-train

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Mom of,

I think more of the scripture of casting pearls before swine. I think that was one that Christ taught also. Those who come to bring contention and cause strife are not of the Lord.

I know we had a thread earlier regarding contention and defenition of "Contend for Christ" versus "Being contentious" I think are two different things.

I have spent endless hours discussing in person and online LDS beliefs with many who are not LDS. We have had pleasant conversations without contention. In none of these cases did these people come to me saying you are wrong and we are right. What they did was say how they felt or believed and asked how I believed. From there we shared common beliefs and differing beliefs. Always parting knowing more about each other. That is how you contend for Christ. Not by going and saying "This is why you are wrong".

Ben Raines

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Guest MrsS

So somebody tell me how the name troll came about. I see what it refers too, but why?

-a-train

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Troll

In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding.

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To be a Christian, imho, is to love, believe and follow God through the teachings, death, resurrection and life of Jesus Christ and to accept Jesus as one's personal savior. Then to live a life that would reflect the teachings of the Risen Lord and to believe that one day you would be reuninted with Him and will live in Zion together. That pretty much sums it up to me. :-)

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To be a Christain, in my opinion, simply means doing everything you do for one reason. Afterall, Christ was the ultamate example. Heavanly Father sent his son for us, so that we could be saved. Its a concept that eludes many people here on earth. There are many commandments and many rules - but in the end, every single one is based on one thing ..... Our love for God, Christ and our fellow man.

I would even speculate that the very first set of tablets that that Moses brought down from the mountain first had simply one main commandment - love God, Christ and our fellow man.

The problem is that the followers of Moses simply didnt comprehend it. The ten commandments are all still based on this concept, but a little more simple for us dim-witted people to comprehend. In my opinion, every commandment we have is based on this concept. Further, If we were to truley understand this concept, we really wouldnt need very many commandments.

If we understand the concept of love in our life (love of Heavanly Father, God and Man) we could simply go about our lives doing the correct thing in most cases all by ourselves.

Its been 2000 years since Christ died. Man has had 2000+ years to contemplate the 3 years of Christ's ministry. Even after his death, we as people, still dont truley understand what really happend, and why.

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One thing I would like to add is that organized religion, when its guided by Christ, can assist followers in becoming more like Christ. For example, oour leaders may see efforts needed in certain areas where we simply couldnt see as individuals.

For example, we, as a group, may need to be reminded of the importance of forgiveness when we as a group fall astray. Therefore, we may have a conference, home teaching lessons and even Sunday school lessons on the subject.

I believe it takes both individual and organized direction.

T: Let me know if you catch anymore typos. Thanks! You're better than your average secretary - and not bad for a doctor.

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Guest MrsS

Its been 2000 years since Christ died.

2007 years since his birth not death.

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Its been 2000 years since Christ died.

2007 years since his birth not death.

Actually its 2010 or 2011 years

quote from WordFLOOD

Its been 2000 years since Christ died. Man has had 2000+ years to contemplate the 3 years of Christ's ministry. Even after his death, we as people, still dont truley understand what really happend, and why.

roman:

I know a lot of people who who disagree with you on this point

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So what is the point? The number of years, or the reason why he came? Ironic isnt it?

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So what is the point? The number of years, or the reason why he came? Ironic isnt it?

Sorry for the confusion in my answer, But you are wrong that people don't understand why Christ came. His mission his purpose and pretty much everything related has been revealed, It has also been studies ---prayed over and understood-----------by more people than you or I could count!

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<div class='quotemain'>

So what is the point? The number of years, or the reason why he came? Ironic isnt it?

Sorry for the confusion in my answer, But you are wrong that people don't understand why Christ came. His mission his purpose and pretty much everything related has been revealed, It has also been studies ---prayed over and understood-----------by more people than you or I could count!

I dont think most people actually completely fathom the whole thing. I know I dont. While I do know him, and I know some of what he's done, I probably will never completely understand the whole concept. However, it wont stop me from trying. I wish I could know the complete full realization of the Love Heavanly Father had for Jesus Christ: For example - Understanding the full love that Heavanly Father must feel for Jesus Christ, his son, who had to go through the pains he did for one reason, to save us, to whom he also loves. We dont know how much pain it felt like, or what betrayal felt like to the magnitude he did for us, and yet look what humanity did to him. Talk about love! He saves us from our sins so that we may be saved - thats elementary - but understanding the price, the suffering, and the real reason behind it, I dont think that understanding comes easily.

When I think of reasons why people keep commandments, I would say its possible that many dont keep them for the love in which we are discussing. And maybe thats ok - at least they are keeping them. But I think the real true understanding of being Christian, is understanding that ultamate sacrifice, and perhaps the real reason why we should keep the commandments.

I dont believe its something a book can teach. But books are a a start. If people understood, I dont think we would need prisons, courts, or lawyers. Nobody would need to tell us what is right or wrong. We would understand that christ isnt found in building made up of wood & stone, but rather its found in the right reason we build them, and also the correct reason we go there every Sunday.

It should guide every part of our lives - and ultamately be the reason for everything we do. Im not there yet. To say that I am, would close me off from further enlightenment of the Spirit - God does continue to answer prayers - and I dont have to rely on someone else - I can go to the source.

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