Support and Advice

[NJsmom]

Okay, let me start by saying that I am a regular reader and poster but my identity is too obvious I am looking for support and advice to try to see wood for trees.

I don't mind answering questions, it's not about sensitivity.

I converted to the Church almost ten years ago but have been inactive in my attendance this past two years. I have been maintaining a regular schedule of prayer and scripture study, read the Ensign and watches conference. I have recently moved into a new area, new ward same stake. I have met with my bishop, I have seen my VTs a few times and had contact with HTs too. This was all at my request.

To sum up the best thing would be for me to include the text of a message I wrote to my bishop and have received no response or contact from anybody since.

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Hi Bishop,

I feel the need to write this as a sort of progress report I guess.

First of all let me start by saying that I have been making a lot of progress. It is an oversimplification to put it like this but I know that the next step is to start attending Church and not just any church as I have been considering and pondering over.

I know I have a testimony of the restoration, of the power of the priesthood, of temple work and I certainly have a testimony of President Hinckley albeit I can't determine if I have of President Monson.

In any event I have a massive stumbling block that I am trying to get around/over/obliterate. That stumbling block relates to some issues I have with a particular person. Suffice it to say that they have been clear that I should not be at Church. I know I shouldn't let anybody stand in my way. Here's the bond though. If the person is acting a natural man, vengeful etc then I should just get over it as their problem I know that. But then there is a part of me that wonders if perhaps this person doesn't want me there because they are acting under the influence of Heavenly Father. I can see both sides of the coin equally, but that doesn't really get me very far.

I don't feel there is a way around it, at least in this life. Misunderstandings, subsequent anger and no communication seeking resolution has been attempted, it is a conflict that just exists I suppose.

As a result I feel like I am turning in a circle. I don't know what the future will hold, whether I will ever reach that next step.

The only good thing is that despite now being "alone" in my testimony, it remains. I guess that proves something.

---------

My only close friend now in the Church has told me that maybe I should look to the terrestrial world, rather than the Celestial Kingdom. The thought of that, the thought that at the moment I left the pre-mortal realm I said goodbye to Heavenly Father forever, well it brings me to tears. But what if she is right too? What if the point is I should just go to another church and develop a relationship with Christ only, live a terrestrial law?

Thoughts?

Thanx

[Guest]

No one has the right to tell you where your standing is or whether or not you should go to church. Any reason you can't just ignore and avoid her?

[NJsmom]

Not a her! It's someone in leadership. Xxx

[Guest]

If someone in leadership is telling you that you don't belong at church, the bishop definitely needs to know. They would not be acting under God's influence, because He would not tell you to avoid church and stop renewing your covenants and working toward returning to Him. You are His child as much as this leader is. He desires to be reunited with you as much as anyone else. The leader was out of line.

The only exception I could maybe see is if you are a danger to the membership. . . like a pedophile or something. Even then, it's debatable. It's hard to say without all the information, but I'd say there's a 99% chance that whoever told you this was NOT under the influence of God, but the adversary.

[Gwen]

Talk to the bishop to continue to progress. If you haven't gotten one, make patriarchal blessing the first goal on your list. If you do have one then it's time to read it again and again; pray to really understand what it means. Only christ gets to decide who belongs in his church and I think he pretty much included everyone he met.

[NeuroTypical]

To sum up the best thing would be for me to include the text of a message I wrote to my bishop and have received no response or contact from anybody since.

I guess my question would be, did you expect a response? Are you hurt that you haven't received one?

If so, please be aware of the inherent limitations of communicating something like this via email, facebook, phone text, or any other electronic way. It's a bad idea. I wouldn't even trust the hardcopy postal service with a communication this important. How did you get this message to your bishop?

Before you draw any conclusions, I would at least do some real-life face-to-face verification with your bishop that he got your message.

Also before you draw any conclusions, I don't really see anywhere where you asked for a response. The text you posted didn't exactly suggest to me that you wanted a response. "I feel the need to write this as a sort of progress report I guess." - ok, let's say he did get your progress report. Did you ask for his opinion? Or a response?

Again, not sure if you're hurt over the lack of response or not. But sometimes we humans get ourselves into more trouble with our communication flubs, than we do by actually communicating the things we want to communicate.

[Anddenex]

What in your past, if not to personal, have you done that a leader would suggest one of his "sheep" should remove herself from the fold? More information would allow for better advice/thoughts for you to ponder.

My response will be in light of you being an average member of the Church, a person who makes mistakes but is willing to repent.

Church is for those of us who are not whole, I only know of one person who was whole -- Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ entered this world in order to save the world not to condemn the world. Your friend is utterly and in totality WRONG (unless you have killed someone, or committed blasphemy against the Holy Ghost)! Excommunicated members are encouraged to attend church, read their scriptures, pray.

Your goal, as others have shared, should be the Celestial kingdom, and no other. You will not be satisfied, and you will not enjoy a fullness of God's love and joy unless you enter the Celestial kingdom.

My other thoughts, some leaders, unfortunately have huge sway upon those they lead, and their attitude unfortunately will stem to other leaders (this can be good also depending on the actions of the leader and if the actions are "good").

If problem persists, move out of the stake. Before you move, get to know the bishop of the ward you are moving into, and learn his personality.

[NJsmom]

Okay this I why it helps to be anon. To answer you Anddenex this person thought I had made a pass at him. In a nutshell. We had a good relationship, one night well early hours of the morning he messaged me in a bit of a state. Telling me he felt overwhelmed by his calling. Messages went back and forth a few times. Couple days later he apologised. I then stupidly emailed him from no my usual email (in concern and hiding my details not from him but from anyone who might've happened upon the email - I didn't want anyone else to see know or otherwise).

That's when the accusations flew.

Unfortunately at the same time I lost my grandmother and found out I was pregnant. Nothing will convince me he believed me when I first told him. In fact nothing will convince he acknowledged it till I had given birth. I'm not a large woman (size 6/8) but carried oddly in that I never bought maternity wear and aside from a slightly larger size in trousers wasn't obvious at all. I in fact had a blessing two days before giving birth and they were shell-shocked! I digress.

That's it in a nutshell. And now I don't know what he's said or done or is manipulating behind the scenes. I am certain he is: I even confronted him with it - it's quite clear that he doesn't want me there. I don't know how far he would go to prevent it or how much sway he would have on my records etc.

I so really don't want to believe this of him. But the only other alternative than him acting in anger is something I don't want to contemplate.

Xxx

[Guest]

What were you accused of? By this guy or someone else? Was there anything in the email that might have made him really think your intentions were untoward? Why was he texting you early in the morning? What are you afraid he might do?

[NJsmom]

Nothing untoward as far as the content but it is suspect that him being married ad in leadership should be contacting me as opposed to his wife or priesthood leader person whatever.

He accused me directly.

X

[Guest]

Sorry, I still don't understand. What did he accuse you of exactly, and why? He texted his problems to you at inappropriate hours, you emailed him from a rarely used account with. . . what? I'm not getting the picture. Maybe I'm slow.

[Vort]

Sorry for being slow, and maybe I just need to reread your OP (again) to figure it out...but I do not understand what the problem is.

• Is it that a married LDS leader texted you, and somehow that's seen as inappropriate?
• Is it that he told you that you were not a candidate for exaltation? It seems absurd that anyone would make such a pronouncement, much less a leader.
• Is it that your friend told you she thought you should start investigating "lower kingdoms" because she didn't think you were fit for the celestial kingdom -- as if she could possibly know if you're fit, and as if we have any way of "investigating" kingdoms of glory about which we have almost no knowledge?

Can you clarify exactly what the problem is?

[NJsmom]

That's my point and has been all along!!! But he won't be grown up and move forward. It suddenly was all on me.

Maybe I should have just told him straight away that it wasn't appropriate, but I was concerned. There's part of me still concerned. Because what if it's not anger and he's developed some sort of feelings for me?! That would be the only explanation I can think of. I don't mean love but I just mean that because he's maybe thought something inappropriate or whatever.

I haven't had a straight answer from him since then beyond just that he doesn't want me there. The next ward out of my stake is an hour away. It not feasible for me right now economically or to be dragging my boy that far x

[NJsmom]

Yes * Is it that a married LDS leader texted you, and somehow that's seen as inappropriate?

No * Is it that he told you that you were not a candidate for exaltation? It seems absurd that anyone would make such a pronouncement, much less a leader.

Yes * Is it that your friend told you she thought you should start investigating "lower kingdoms" because she didn't think you were fit for the celestial kingdom -- as if she could possibly know if you're fit, and as if we have any way of "investigating" kingdoms of glory about which we have almost no knowledge?

[Guest]

I am sooo confused...

I thought what she was accused of is having an affair with a guy in leadership which ended in her having a baby and hence she got told to leave Church (maybe just the ward not the Church altogether).

Sending/receiving text messages at inappropriate hours is not worth getting you kicked out of your ward!

Edited May 16, 2013 by anatess

[Vort]

Others seem to have some clue what's going on here. Maybe it's only me who can't figure out what the heck is being discussed. So I guess I'll just bow out of the thread.

[NJsmom]

No no no.

I was accused by someone in leadership of trying to attempt an affair with that same person. Nothing to do with my son or anything like that!

You've made me smile though!

[Anddenex]

It appears the leader is covering for himself, as suggested, it is suspect as to why he sent text messages to you and then apologized.

My suggestion: Prove. Them. Wrong. God knows the heart of this leader and when he stands before God he won't be able to hide any error on his part.

Unfortunately, he is in a position that potentially will effect you. I, unfortunately, have had bad experiences with leadership also. My wife's words always come back to me, "Prove them wrong." It is very difficult when authority is abused by leaders, however, in our scriptures we shouldn't be too shocked when this occurs as the Lord declared,

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."

If he is exercising an unrighteous dominion then let the Lord handle him. Come back to church. Come back to full fellowship with the saints. No longer deny yourself from partaking of the sacrament. Begin again to live worthily for a temple recommend. I understand, this isn't easy, and requires more strength than we think we have, but you have it.

[Guest]

I'm curious to know what he said. Did he text you, realize it was inappropriate, and reply to your email saying so? Or did he actually say, "You are trying to have an affair with me!"? Was there anything in your conversation that either of you wouldn't want his wife to see? Has anything inappropriate ever happened between you? Did he actually say, "You don't belong in this church", or something like, "Maybe it would be better if you went to another ward so we don't see each other". Why does your friend think you've lost your exaltation?

[Guest]

No no no.

I was accused by someone in leadership of trying to attempt an affair with that same person. Nothing to do with my son or anything like that!

You've made me smile though!

Okay, now I get it... and you had zero intention of having an affair with the guy. Got that.

So, this is my advice. Continue going to church and just ignore whatever bird's nest this person in leadership is trying to shake up. Ignore and avoid him if you can. Don't worry about it, don't think about it, don't talk about it anymore (except here on lds.net to vent out your frustrations - we've got some good listeners over here who will not dare tell you you're not good enough to live with our Father in heaven). If you can get an appointment with the bishop to tell him about all this, that would be great. But other than that, don't worry about it anymore.

Then, the next time ward council happens and they ask you to sustain this guy, raise your hand to oppose.

Keep following the path, reading your scriptures, praying, and renewing your covenants and attending the temple. And forgive him. You will feel peace, I'm certain.

Hope this helps.

[mnn727]

best thing would be for me to include the text of a message I wrote to my bishop and have received no response or contact from anybody since.

I don't see anything in your letter that would elicit a response.

I also don't see why since you have a testimony, you are allowing anyone keep you away from Church. Especially a 'leader' who was in the wrong from the beginning of this. Sounds to me like he is trying to cover his butt and he may be worried that you will blow the whistle on him.

Edited May 16, 2013 by mnn727

[Vort]

Yes * Is it that a married LDS leader texted you, and somehow that's seen as inappropriate?

No * Is it that he told you that you were not a candidate for exaltation? It seems absurd that anyone would make such a pronouncement, much less a leader.

Yes * Is it that your friend told you she thought you should start investigating "lower kingdoms" because she didn't think you were fit for the celestial kingdom -- as if she could possibly know if you're fit, and as if we have any way of "investigating" kingdoms of glory about which we have almost no knowledge?

So as far as your "friend" who suggested you investigate "lower kingdoms": Ignore her. I have no idea what she's playing at, but she has no clue what she's talking about. We don't investigate lower kingdoms. We are commanded to seek exaltation. Period.

As for the rest: I think there is a lot that hasn't been stated that you just assume we know or can infer. Speaking for myself, I don't know it and can't infer it. Here is sort of where my thoughts are going:

You say you are/were pregnant. Are you married? If so, then we all know who the father is, so this cannot be a question of someone thinking maybe the leader impregnated you. If you are unmarried, that's a whole other issue, but is there some idea that maybe the leader is the father? Did you in fact have sex with this leader? Is that what he's upset about? Or is he upset that people THINK he had sex with you, but he really didn't? Maybe his wife is giving him grief for texting you about personal matters, and now that you're pregnant and not married it makes him look like a cad? Or is he upset because he thinks you should have disclosed your pregnancy or maybe your extramarital sexual relationship to him when he was counseling you about something? Or is he somehow otherwise "on the hook" regarding your pregnancy? For example, did he vouch for you to the stake president or find you worthy of a temple recommend while you were actually fornicating, and now he feels betrayed because he thinks you lied to him?

As you can see, I really have absolutely no idea what the issue actually is. Maybe I'm the only one who can't see what's going on; if so, then that's fine, and I can just bow out of the conversation. Specific questions include:

To answer you Anddenex this person thought I had made a pass at him. In a nutshell. We had a good relationship, one night well early hours of the morning he messaged me in a bit of a state. Telling me he felt overwhelmed by his calling. Messages went back and forth a few times. Couple days later he apologised. I then stupidly emailed him from no my usual email (in concern and hiding my details not from him but from anyone who might've happened upon the email - I didn't want anyone else to see know or otherwise).

That's when the accusations flew.

Accusations? What accusations? Accusations that you emailed him? Accusations that he told you his frustrations when he should have kept quiet or talked to his wife instead of some random sister in the ward? Accusations that he tried to seduce you? Or that you tried to seduce him? Or that you were involved in a torrid affair? Or that he exceeded his monthly texting quota?

Unfortunately at the same time I lost my grandmother and found out I was pregnant. Nothing will convince me he believed me when I first told him.

Why would he disbelieve you if you told him you were pregnant? If some woman in the ward told me she was pregnant, I wouldn't accuse her of lying about it. Why would he? Or is there some idea that HE might be the father?

That's it in a nutshell. And now I don't know what he's said or done or is manipulating behind the scenes. I am certain he is: I even confronted him with it - it's quite clear that he doesn't want me there.

He doesn't want you where? At Church? What business is that of his?

I don't know how far he would go to prevent it or how much sway he would have on my records etc.

So you think he has begun a campaign to exclude you from Church?

Nothing untoward as far as the content but it is suspect that him being married ad in leadership should be contacting me as opposed to his wife or priesthood leader person whatever.

He accused me directly.

Again, he accused you of what? Of being pregnant? Of texting him? Of talking at two in the morning? Of being too friendly, or too unfriendly? What accusation are we talking about here?

EDIT: Based on the last few entries in this thread, it appears that he is accusing you of trying to seduce him. Is this correct? So is that what this is all about -- he is smearing your good name by accusing you of trying to seduce him? If so, what does your pregnancy have to do with anything?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Vort

[NJsmom]

Okay. Good thoughts. I am glad to hear of others with leadership issues who are still LDS (the blinker are off in that respect).

In terms of telling bishop I'm not certain this would help due to the position it then might put him in with the stake.

He accused me because of my subsequent email. It was just concern, yes I didn't use my details because he has his own domain and I didn't know what his wife could access. I figure that if he was tellin me how much pressure he felt in his calling (he is a convert too) that his wife wasn't really listening but rather bathing in the "glory" of his role (she's at least second generation).

Blech, the worst bit for me is I have lost a really good friend who has helped me out tremendously so many times, right to my very first experience in the temple when I snuck in with the youth about two months after baptised. It's because of who I know he can be that I'm not raising the issue further in fact I don't know who I would go to!!!

Xxx

[NeuroTypical]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but could everything just be all better, if you stopped caring what people think of you and just go to chuch because you're Mormon? I know my life got so much easier back when I made that decision...

[Guest]

Man, I don't know what's going on in the UK, but this is just sooo soap operatic.

I guess he's a Stake Leader who snuck you in the Temple without a recommend. That, alone... he needs to be removed from leadership. You need to tell your Bishop and he needs to be removed from leadership.

And, NJsmom, please don't sneak into temples anymore.