LDS scout troop marches in gay pride parade in SLC?

[Just_A_Guy]

I, for one, don't think the scoutmaster should be removed. I think a lot of scouters don't understand that the uniform isn't supposed to turn up at agenda-driven activities (I once saw a group of scouts, in full uniform, at a Republican party neighborhood caucus. The scoutmaster just thought they were attending a community event. This being Utah County, he was partly right).

Corrected or reprimanded? Sure. Removed? Not for this one instance, provided it was a first offense.

[Guest]

But a local leader of the Boy Scouts had said Friday that they were prohibited from doing so.

"We as a Scouting movement do not advocate any social or political position, so I reminded Mr. Brownstein that we do not wear uniforms at an event like this," said Rick Barnes, chief scout executive of the Great Salt Lake Council, which consists of more than 75,000 youth. "We do not, as Boy Scouts, show support for any social or political position. We're neutral. If he wants to attend the parade and others do that are Scouts or Scouters, they're welcome to do so as private citizens wearing whatever they want except their uniform.

“That's our official position. It always has been, there's nothing new here," he added. "We just don't want people to use the Boy Scouts to advocate their positions."

He blatantly defied the instruction given him by the BSA. He should be removed.

[Soulsearcher]

He blatantly defied the instruction given him by the BSA. He should be removed.

I thought the article said he didn't wear his uniform but others did?

edit: sorry was a different article

Boy Scouts March In Uniform At Utah Gay Pride Parade : The Two-Way : NPR

Edited June 3, 2013 by Soulsearcher

[Guest]

He organized it. He was at the head of scouts who were in uniform, all while knowing that the BSA prohibited it. If he does try "I wasn't the one in uniform!" as a defense, thereby throwing the ones following him under the bus, he has even less of my respect.

His stepdad borrowed a uniform to wear, for crying out loud.

[Suzie]

Mr. Brownstein should be reprimanded and removed from his position as Scoutmaster. If Mr. Brownstein wants to participate then he is fully welcome to representing only himself, not the scouts, especially if they informed him not to do so.

They'll replace it with "morally ambiguous".

To answer the OP's question, the leader should be removed immediately.

He blatantly defied the instruction given him by the BSA. He should be removed.

Guys, are you all aware of what exactly happened? Please correct me if I am wrong but based on what I understand, Mr. Brownstein yes, encouraged the Boy Scouts to wear the uniform BEFORE he got the instruction that they shouldn't wear it and he complied, he didn't wear one neither his son. It was the choice of the OTHER scouts to wear the uniform knowing they were told NOT to. How is Mr.Brownstein's fault then and why he should be removed?

"I am asking everyone to wear their Scout uniforms," Brownstein, whose son recently earned the BSA's highest honor -- the Eagle rank -- said before receiving the notice from the scout executive. "The message we want to send is that Scouting should be open to everyone and it's a wonderful program and everyone deserves to be included and have the benefits of the program."

After learning of the uniform decision, he said later Saturday: "Our current plan is to, out of respect for Rick as an individual, we will follow his request and I will not march in uniform.

"Others may choose differently," he added, noting he was aware of a father and son who planned to wear their uniforms.

Boy Scouts can't wear uniforms at gay pride parade, official says - U.S. News

[Soulsearcher]

He organized it. He was at the head of scouts who were in uniform, all while knowing that the BSA prohibited it. If he does try "I wasn't the one in uniform!" as a defense, thereby throwing the ones following him under the bus, he has even less of my respect.

His stepdad borrowed a uniform to wear, for crying out loud.

He followed procedure and others chose not to, he let them make a choice to follow the rules or not. I haven't seen him say much about it at all, but to say he blatantly defied anything would be wrong. he didn't defy, others he associated with. Now you have to say he made them wear their uniforms through pressure to say he blatantly did anything. Others used free agency.

[Just_A_Guy]

For me, the confusion (I confess, I didn't read the article) arises over whether the conversation between scoutmaster and council executive occurred before or after the parade. From the extracts quoted here, it wasn't (and isn't) altogether clear to me.

[pam]

"Putting moderator hat on" Please watch the pictures. They are inappropriate for this site. Even if it were scantilly clad women it would be inappropriate.

[Suzie]

He organized it. He was at the head of scouts who were in uniform, all while knowing that the BSA prohibited it. If he does try "I wasn't the one in uniform!" as a defense, thereby throwing the ones following him under the bus, he has even less of my respect.

His stepdad borrowed a uniform to wear, for crying out loud.

He learned of the prohibition AFTER and he complied. Why he should pay for the CHOICE others made?

[Guest]

So as the organizer of his group, when people he organized showed up in uniform despite the precise instructions of the group he represents, he just shrugged his shoulders and marched with them? Scoutmaster. Leader. Organizer. Even if he himself didn't wear the uniform, he holds at least some responsibility for the actions of the people he was leading.

[Suzie]

For me, the confusion (I confess, I didn't read the article) arises over whether the conversation between scoutmaster and council executive occurred before or after the parade. From the extracts quoted here, it wasn't (and isn't) altogether clear to me.

The guy in question told the BS to wear the uniform. He THEN learned of the prohibition, told them and complied but a few others chose to wear it regardless.

[Guest]

He learned of the prohibition AFTER and he complied. Why he should pay for the CHOICE others made?

Do you know this for sure? The article said that the council had said on the previous Friday that they were not to wear uniforms. I likely read it wrong, but can you show me where it says he didn't know beforehand?

[Suzie]

So as the organizer of his group, when people he organized showed up in uniform despite the precise instructions of the group he represents, he just shrugged his shoulders and marched with them? Scoutmaster. Leader. Organizer. Even if he himself didn't wear the uniform, he holds at least some responsibility for the actions of the people he was leading.

So what exactly do you suggest he should have done? Put handcuffs on them?

[Suzie]

Do you know this for sure? The article said that the council had said on the previous Friday that they were not to wear uniforms. I likely read it wrong, but can you show me where it says he didn't know beforehand?

I put the quotes on my previous messages.

[Suzie]

Here:

I am asking everyone to wear their Scout uniforms," Brownstein, whose son recently earned the BSA's highest honor -- the Eagle rank -- said before receiving the notice from the scout executive. "The message we want to send is that Scouting should be open to everyone and it's a wonderful program and everyone deserves to be included and have the benefits of the program."

After learning of the uniform decision, he said later Saturday: "Our current plan is to, out of respect for Rick as an individual, we will follow his request and I will not march in uniform.

"Others may choose differently," he added, noting he was aware of a father and son who planned to wear their uniforms.

[Guest]

Mikesell said he wasn't worried about any consequences. But Brownstein did not wear his uniform and instead opted for a T-shirt that carried the message of inclusive Scouting, with a rainbow square knot on it. His son, an Eagle Scout, and another Scout wore shirts promoting allowing gays in Scouting (LGBT adults are not allowed to join the program).

"We're just trying to demonstrate that Scouts can be a part of all parts of society, all parts of life," he said before the parade. "While I am not wearing my uniform, other people will be. And this is not about me, this is about getting the message out to America" of "inclusiveness in Scouting, the need for equality."

After the march, he noted: “It felt awesome to proudly represent an organization that is making progress towards change and acceptance … and slowly making progress on opening their organization to many more people who can benefit from the wonderful program."

So he skirted the rules, but still made sure it was clear what organization he was representing. Any and all leaders participating should be disciplined.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Eowyn
added evidence

[Soulsearcher]

So as the organizer of his group, when people he organized showed up in uniform despite the precise instructions of the group he represents, he just shrugged his shoulders and marched with them? Scoutmaster. Leader. Organizer. Even if he himself didn't wear the uniform, he holds at least some responsibility for the actions of the people he was leading.

By the sounds of it some parents were present with their kids and marched with them in some cases, so as a leader he has the power to overrule the parents? Not sure but i think the parents trump the leader and can take responsibility for the actions of their kids.

[pam]

For me, the confusion (I confess, I didn't read the article) arises over whether the conversation between scoutmaster and council executive occurred before or after the parade. From the extracts quoted here, it wasn't (and isn't) altogether clear to me.

A couple of things from the article:

But a local leader of the Boy Scouts had said Friday that they were prohibited from doing so.

“That's our official position. It always has been, there's nothing new here," he added. "We just don't want people to use the Boy Scouts to advocate their positions."

So according to the council this isn't anything new. They already knew that it wasn't allowed. It also sounds to me like they knew the day before the parade that it wasn't allowed.

[Suzie]

So he skirted the rules, but still made sure it was clear what organization he was representing. Any and all leaders participating should be disciplined.

Eowyn, I mean no disrespect but now that you know he made the statement about the uniform BEFORE he received the instruction and your false allegation of "he blatantly defied the instruction given him by the BSA" no longer stands, why do you insist in wanting the guy to be disciplined for a choice others made? Specially the ones parents themselves made? It's illogical.

[bytor2112]

“It felt awesome to proudly represent an organization that is making progress towards change and acceptance … and slowly making progress on opening their organization to many more people who can benefit from the wonderful program."

Progress, change and acceptance........what a bunch of drivel. And for every "gay kid" that comes into scouting, how many non gay kids leave as a result? Scouting was just fine the way it was and no one needed to force sexuality to become an issue with children.

[Guest]

If by "illogical", you mean I disagree with you, then okay.

He and his kids wore t-shirts advocating gay inclusiveness in the BSA. He stated himself he was happy to represent the BSA in the parade. He is a ranking leader, who, if not breaking rules, is seeking to barely keep them so that he can still make his point in spite of their request. It's not illogical. It's spirit of the law vs. letter.

[Suzie]

So according to the council this isn't anything new. They already knew that it wasn't allowed. It also sounds to me like they knew the day before the parade that it wasn't allowed.

Just like during election time, we are reminded the Church doesn't support any political group and members shouldn't use Church to do so but quite a few forget and from the stand they clearly encourage others to support a specific candidate. And yes, they know but the reminder is always there.

[Soulsearcher]

Progress, change and acceptance........what a bunch of drivel. And for every "gay kid" that comes into scouting, how many non gay kids leave as a result? Scouting was just fine the way it was and no one needed to force sexuality to become an issue with children.

But it already was, there was a rule about sexuality already, so is it the sexuality you don't like or the fact another group didn't want it to be an excluding issue? For every kid that leaves that's a choice, now a gay kid has a choice to be there and not just told "GET OUT!"

[Suzie]

He and his kids wore t-shirts advocating gay inclusiveness in the BSA. He stated himself he was happy to represent the BSA in the parade. He is a ranking leader, who, if not breaking rules, is seeking to barely keep them so that he can still make his point in spite of their request. It's not illogical. It's spirit of the law vs. letter.

I understand your point of view but we cannot and should not remove a person from a position if they didn't break any rules. That's the logic.

[bytor2112]

But it already was, there was a rule about sexuality already, so is it the sexuality you don't like or the fact another group didn't want it to be an excluding issue? For every kid that leaves that's a choice, now a gay kid has a choice to be there and not just told "GET OUT!"

You miss the point. Scouting shouldn't be about sexuality at all and now it will be and as far as I know the only one's asked to leave scouting were the ones that decided to make sexuality an issue.