Why did blacks only get the priesthood recently?

[Just_A_Guy]

I would only add, read the actual text of the Book of Mormon *very* carefully. I don't agree with the view in Skippy's link (which I could be misstating--Skippy, correct me if I'm wrong) that there was NO skin change at all; but nor do I think the skin change was a curse per se. My own theory is that the skin change was a natural result, over time, of the Lamanites' intermarriage with indigenous American peoples, which the Nephites were less willing to do; and that the Nephites interpreted the changing racial makeup of the Lamanites as a sign of Lamanite slackness with regard to Mosaic law generally.

[skippy740]

I would only add, read the actual text of the Book of Mormon *very* carefully. I don't agree with the view in Skippy's link (which I could be misstating--Skippy, correct me if I'm wrong) that there was NO skin change at all; but nor do I think the skin change was a curse per se. My own theory is that the skin change was a natural result, over time, of the Lamanites' intermarriage with indigenous American peoples, which the Nephites were less willing to do; and that the Nephites interpreted the changing racial makeup of the Lamanites as a sign of Lamanite slackness with regard to Mosaic law generally.

JAG, I won't disagree with you on this. It certainly is very plausible based on our knowledge of genetics, DNA, etc.

Basically, we both agree that any skin color change was not a result of an immediate God-given 'curse'.

There is a scripture verse that would also seem to correlate with what you're saying:

2 Nephi 5:23

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

The footnote on 'mixeth' is TG Marriage, Interfaith, not necessarily interracial marriages.

Your theory also sounds a lot like the House of Israel - particularly of Jewish people. One reason that they (like the great majority of LDS) marry those of their faith is to continue their cultural and religious identity. I agree that the Nephites would want to continue to do this, while Lamanites didn't hold to such ideals.

But I would like to point out a different verse (and I think we've discussed this one before):

Alma 55:4-9

4 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.

Now, we do agree that Native Americans have a darker skin tone than most Europeans. If we use our own mental imagery based on LDS artwork, then Captain Moroni is a tall and muscular white man looking for a darker man among them. It probably wouldn't take long to find such a man... but he needed to do a 'search'. Maybe it was harder than we thought? Maybe the artwork isn't historically accurate?

5 And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah.

6 Now Moroni caused that Laman and a small number of his men should go forth unto the guards who were over the Nephites.

7 Now the Nephites were guarded in the city of Gid; therefore Moroni appointed Laman and caused that a small number of men should go with him.

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.

Now, we have a Lamanite with a few Nephites. If the Lamanites were so dark and very different from the Nephites... then why did he have to say "behold, I am a Lamanite"? Couldn't the Lamanite guards look at him and tell? What about the Nephites that were with him? My guess is that he told them to be quiet and let him do all the talking. :)

9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.

The Lamanite guards took them at their word.

But if there was such a change in skin color... wouldn't they see it immediately?

It's just something to think about.

Edited June 24, 2013 by skippy740

[skippy740]

Wow that was a great video! There really is no such curse of blackness in the scripture! Why doesn't everyone know about these videos? Its perfect. If there are people lurking here, who had the same thoughts that I had, you must watch that video. I feel so bad that I judged before I knew the truth.

Don't feel bad one bit. The majority of members don't know what is in these materials.

If you look at my other link, I taught an Elder's Quorum lesson on this myself. I'm biased, but I think it's pretty good. You might want to check it out and the other materials I linked there.

[Guest kevingf]

I just did a quick read in the journal of discourses. I found that this quote from President Brigham Young to be pretty racist:

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of anyone of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that [would have put a termination to that line of human beings]. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race—that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them,and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859)

If the President indeed held these views, I don't know how one can say anything other that he was a supporter of slavery... slavery of my ancestors, and he was a racist. Racism is evil, we all know that, yet our righteous leader was racist...something doesn't seem right.

[skippy740]

Are you basically asking "How can a prophet be righteous and racist at the same time?"

Brigham Young was a product of his time. Remember, he was a convert - just like almost all the members back then.

We are looking at history through today's standards.

No where in the scriptures does it say that a prophet must be perfect to be a prophet.

[Anddenex]

The Lamanite guards took them at their word.

But if there was such a change in skin color... wouldn't they see it immediately?

It's just something to think about.

Another possible interpretation is that we need to remember at this time there were many Nephites who had intermingled with the Lamanites. This doesn't necessarily mean that they all Nephites who became Lamanites inter married.

He mentions he is a Lamanite, and they believed him, which could also mean they noticed he wasn't dark-skinned, thus he needed to clarify, he was an individual who was no longer a Nephite.

We have a lot of Nephites during the wars in Alma who were no longer considered Nephites. It would be similar to a Lamanite, now converted Nephite, approaching his fellow Nephites, who did not know him, and him saying, "I am a Nephite."

Just an additional possibility.

[Guest SmilesheHas]

As an African American I believe the ban was racist. I believe this due to the overwhelming evidence which exists within the scriptures and almost anywhere you look online. I believe we may be imperfect people however some important revelations were revealed early. Just as these revelations were important, God would have considered the life and well being of my ancestors very early on and provided such revelations as "treat all men equally despite their race" very early on since I see no difference between myself and a white member of the church, except maybe with the capacity to remember how things were. Both our lives equally important, I don't see why one race should be punished over the other. Not being able to touch the tray of the sacrament, even if "we" allow you to take the sacrament, for fear you might soil it all is wrong! It is wrong for an african american to be in his 30's yearning to be able to have the priesthood someday whilst a 15 year old white member gets it as soon as he's ready. It was wrong to treat members that way, and now to just lessen/hide/dismiss the issue without ever so much as a public apology is wrong. That's what an African American thinks of this whole ordeal.

[skippy740]

[mordorbund]

As an African American I believe the ban was racist.

As a European American (I guess?) raised in the South in a post-ban Church, my experiences and conclusions differ from yours. Do you mind if I ask some clarifying questions so I can better understand what is coming from your experience and what is hearsay?

... Both our lives equally important, I don't see why one race should be punished over the other. Not being able to touch the tray of the sacrament, even if "we" allow you to take the sacrament, for fear you might soil it all is wrong!

I agree that this is wrong. Did you experience this as a member of the Church or as an investigator? Was this a regular occurrence? Was this the actual reason specified?

Again, I'm just wondering if this was something you experienced first hand as a member, and how systemic it was.

It is wrong for an african american to be in his 30's yearning to be able to have the priesthood someday whilst a 15 year old white member gets it as soon as he's ready. It was wrong to treat members that way, and now to just lessen/hide/dismiss the issue without ever so much as a public apology is wrong. That's what an African American thinks of this whole ordeal.

I'm not familiar with any prophet apologizing for God. Even if the origin of the ban was purely of man, more recent prophets asked to have it lifted and were told "not yet". I fear for any man who defies the revelation of God, moreso the mantled man.

[Just_A_Guy]

But I would like to point out a different verse (and I think we've discussed this one before):

Alma 55:4-9

Now, we do agree that Native Americans have a darker skin tone than most Europeans. If we use our own mental imagery based on LDS artwork, then Captain Moroni is a tall and muscular white man looking for a darker man among them. It probably wouldn't take long to find such a man... but he needed to do a 'search'. Maybe it was harder than we thought? Maybe the artwork isn't historically accurate?

Er, first, I don't view Moroni as "white", at least not in the European sense; and second, I think you're hanging too much on the use of the word "search". It would have been perfectly appropriate to use that same phraseology to describe the means by which Moroni sought to identify--say--a blue-eyed soldier, or a one-legged man.

Now, we have a Lamanite with a few Nephites. If the Lamanites were so dark and very different from the Nephites... then why did he have to say "behold, I am a Lamanite"? Couldn't the Lamanite guards look at him and tell? What about the Nephites that were with him? My guess is that he told them to be quiet and let him do all the talking. :)

If the Lamanites looked so much like the Nephites, then why did Laman say "behold [in other words--see], I am a Lamanite"? Why did Moroni want a Lamanite in Laman's role? He doesn't ask for someone who speaks Lamanitish; he asks for someone who is descended from Laman (the brother of Nephi). And Laman (the Nephite) doesn't say "listen, I am a Lamanite", but "behold, I am a Lamanite".

The Lamanite guards took them at their word.

But if there was such a change in skin color... wouldn't they see it immediately?

Remember, the Zoramites were former Nephites. We agree that the skin change--if it happened--happened over time. So Lamanites by now would have been quite used to seeing their darker-skinned brethren running around with lighter-skinned ex-Nephites.

[pam]

Er, first, I don't view Moroni as "white"

Not to make light of the conversation but to kind of lighten it up. I've always viewed Moroni as kind of gold.

[annewandering]

Moroni would have been Caucasian which is white. I am going to back off the white. There are no races. Except maybe Gold? Oddly I do think of him as being gold as well though. Wonder why that would be?

[Guest SmilesheHas]

I could not have experienced it personally. The ban was lifted before I was born. I am relying on the many written accounts left by African American members of the church at that time. Combined with the fact that the priesthood was indeed banned from blacks, I decide to believe their accounts.

You know of no prophet that has apologized for an error, means what exactly? Since it has never happened i should shut my mouth and stop hoping it does? What about fairness? Justice? Responsibility?

[KingintheNorth]

You guys are making too much of their skin color. One word in a million and suddenly it's evidence for intermixing with paleo Indians. Yada yada yada. Now the question of is skin color a curse is a good question with deep theological ramifications, and I'm happy to say there is no basis to say skin is a curse. But trying to infer their skin color is silly and pointless.

[Guest SmilesheHas]

Sorry, forget the skin colour..."the group of people from whom the priesthood was barred". They aren't Hispanic, they aren't white, the Asians had it, but the ..... Did not. Call them as you wish. It was discrimination in my book.

[Just_A_Guy]

You guys are making too much of their skin color. One word in a million and suddenly it's evidence for intermixing with paleo Indians. Yada yada yada. Now the question of is skin color a curse is a good question with deep theological ramifications, and I'm happy to say there is no basis to say skin is a curse. But trying to infer their skin color is silly and pointless.

Hey, buddy--I think it was you who brought up the Lamanites in this thread!

[skippy740]

The only reason I bring up skin color is because of the Art that is all over the LDS faith.

Arnold Friberg is a great artist. However, let's look at this representation of Captain Moroni:

Very muscular and definitive chiseled looks of those of European descent. He looks Caucasian to me.

For those of us growing up in the Church, this is what we visualize when we think of various figures in the scriptures.

To think otherwise, is typically met with skepticism.

This is a youtube video on a book that is already released that is gospel art on

. The soundtrack makes me wish it was a movie though.

Maybe this was more of what they looked like?

[pam]

Sorry, forget the skin colour..."the group of people from whom the priesthood was barred". They aren't Hispanic, they aren't white, the Asians had it, but the ..... Did not. Call them as you wish. It was discrimination in my book.

And we should be grateful that the discrimination as you believe no longer exists. That's the step in the right direction. It's now been 35 years and we've seen tremendous growth among blacks in the church. Africa is now one of the biggest growing areas for church growth. It's awesome to see.

[Guest]

This seems to have become less about asking questions and more about pointing fingers. Thread closed.