FBI tracking hate crimes against Mormons and others

[Backroads]

Sticks and Stones. Fascinating look at the bullying culture.

[Dravin]

I just quit after 5 years of teaching. And I absolutely refuse to go dig through all my stuff. A simple google search will pop up some of the more publicized cases, as well as state by state policy, schools that aren't adhering to their policies, lawsuits against schools for not adhering as well as "over"-adhering (students who fight back are expelled as fast as the ones who started it... There is no self defense in a zero tolerance policy), teacher's unions, school boards, outraged public letters... Heck. Any parenting forum.

If a quick Google search will provide cites then you don't need to dig through your stuff do you? Also note that your claim is a compound one:

1) Bullying is treated like a hate crime.

2) Bullying is often charged as a hate crime.

I'll be honest, it's mostly the second part of your claim I'm interested in citations for as it is less open to interpretation.

[Quin]

Mmmmmm. Point. You're right. That's more anecdotal about the charges.

When a kid is arrested for assault,,the LEOs poll other students and staff to see if its a personal problem, or group based. They never cared what group. Including if it's the WRONG group. Kid gets called a K, because they're on the chess team and most of chess kids are Jewish... If doesn't matter that the kid is actually an alter boy at the local Catholic Church. The LEOs I've talked to are looking for ANY group inspired crime. Socioeconomic, geek, Trekkie, race, religion, sex, sex ID, whatever.

[Quin]

ROFL... Meaning I'm not even going to go READ enough about school policy to pull up sites.

Probably a similar parallel is if someone asked you to cite Angels in the BoM.

You COULD... But whether or not you'd actually feel like going to the effort would depend on your mood.

Granted "go look it up" is probably also a knee jerk thing of mine at this point. So I may be a wee bit biased.

[Dravin]

You COULD... But whether or not you'd actually feel like going to the effort would depend on your mood.

It'd depend most on whether I care to be taken seriously by the person making the request. Since I generally don't care to be discounted as yet another person on the internet who spouts assertions without being willing to back them up, I'm usually in the mood to be taken seriously.

Granted "go look it up" is probably also a knee jerk thing of mine at this point. So I may be a wee bit biased.

A word of advice, if you wear out that knee you run a high risk of being discounted out of hand by quite a few people here.

[Guest]

It'd depend most on whether I care to be taken seriously by the person making the request. Since I generally don't care to be discounted as yet another person on the internet who spouts assertions without being willing to back them up, I'm usually in the mood to be taken seriously.

Anti-Bully legislations differ from Hate Crime in these:

* AB only covers events in public school grounds (considered government property)

* AB are directed at juveniles

* AB cover all people, not just special groups

But even then, in Florida, AB Legislation specifically mentions harassment pertaining to sex, race, and religion as bullying in the legislation. It confuses people. It makes people question whether harassment pertaining to anything else is not bullying. Michigan's law does not specify special group.

Both state's AB legislation merely requires the public schools to have an AB policy in place including identification, prevention, notification/reporting. In other words, it has no "teeth". But, it does provide a requirement for public schools to file incident reports to the state about the event.

Now, where this becomes a hate crime is when it overlaps Federal Law. Because of the reporting requirement, states now have a record of any bullying incident. And, as in the case of Florida, harassment against sex, religion, and race are specified in case reports. So then, Federal government has access to these reports and can then take action against those that overlap Federal law (e.g., Civil Rights Act, Disabilities Act, etc).

The danger to this is that, public schools are notorious for brainless zero-tolerance policies. They could potentially file an AB incident report for little Johny poking little Susie with a pencil, mark it as sexual harrasment, and it ends up in Federal court.

But yes, there is still nothing that treats bullying against people with glasses as a hate crime. At least not that I know of.

Edited September 13, 2013 by anatess

[Leah]

Not from me!

Bwaaahahahaha. Lol. Sorry.

I just quit after 5 years of teaching. And I absolutely refuse to go dig through all my stuff. A simple google search will pop up some of the more publicized cases, as well as state by state policy, schools that aren't adhering to their policies, lawsuits against schools for not adhering as well as "over"-adhering (students who fight back are expelled as fast as the ones who started it... There is no self defense in a zero tolerance policy), teacher's unions, school boards, outraged public letters... Heck. Any parenting forum.

Boys will be boys has morphed into Assault, hate crimes, and juvie.

My personal opinion is that there's an IQ test for school boards and school administrators and one cannot score double digits and be allowed in.

Anti-bullying I'm all for.

But self defense getting rolled up into it, as well as MARKER PENS (washable) drawn on a desk equalling an arrest, is a ridiculous to me as the kindergartner being charged with sexual harassment for a playground kiss. Of COURSE the other kid thought it was yucky! There are boy-cooties (or girl cooties) on those thar lips.

<grin> So anyone not immersed in school policy is welcome to go hit up google or a parenting forum to hear all about it... But I shall sit here in the sunshine and enjoy my first September NOT back-to-school for some time. Well. My kids in school. But that hardly counts.

Oh. Do be sure to look into how IEPs & 504s also play in. That gets a bit heartbreaking. But it's part and parcel.

Q

I am not understanding the hysterical laughter.

You made a specific claim. You were asked for citations that would support that claim. Nothing extraordinary here, especially on an internet forum. Someone makes a statement of "fact" and someone else is interested in where that statement of

"fact" orginates from and so asks for citations. Anyone purporting "facts" should have a basis for such (especially when they are trying to persuade others of such) and so should have knowledge of where they obtained those facts.

I don't see what is so hysterically funny here. Perhaps you think it's amusing to "absolutely refuse" a request for your sources because, as you imply, your time is oh so much more precious than ours?

[Quin]

I am not understanding the hysterical laughter.

You made a specific claim. You were asked for citations that would support that claim. Nothing extraordinary here, especially on an internet forum. Someone makes a statement of "fact" and someone else is interested in where that statement of

"fact" orginates from and so asks for citations. Anyone purporting "facts" should have a basis for such (especially when they are trying to persuade others of such) and so should have knowledge of where they obtained those facts.

I don't see what is so hysterically funny here. Perhaps you think it's amusing to "absolutely refuse" a request for your sources because, as you imply, your time is oh so much more precious than ours?

I'm really confused as to where the snarkiness is coming from.

In my world, EVERYTHING I said is common knowledge. Parents and teachers from at least K onward (and sometimes preK onward) are loaded down with this information in 100 forms year in and year out. We have forms to sign, policies to work with, playground conversations, gripes to friends (or from friends), news accounts.

Annatess used the phrase "public schools are notorious" for a VERY good reason.

How bullying is dealt with, and common problems, is common knowledge.

I'm beginning to realize that maybe some here aren't in the K-12 system, so it's not common knowledge... But surely not wanting to get into the nitty gritty about ones work or daily life can't be hard to empathize with.

It's like writing a post in a fairly general sense on babies, and then being asked to cite trending in attachment parenting vs cry it out compare and contrast between parenting styles, and while you're at it ... Or mentioning something about driving and being asked to source and cite traffic laws.

Explaining, sourcing, and citing common knowledge is a HUGE undertaking.

Could I search through and find the statistical models for all 50 states + DC? Sure.

Could I source and cite hundreds of articles written over the past 20 years? Of course.

Heck, I could go and scan the employee, student, and parent handbooks and all of my meeting notes along with every educational conference I've ever been to!

To what purpose?

To convince a stranger, who doesn't believe me, about how bullying policy works in the modern day school system?

They don't NEED all of that. Instead... They can do a quick engine search, find tens of sounds of sources... And explore at their leisure to the degree that the topic interests them.

The topic interests me not at all. I've lived it. Just like any parent of a newborn has lived with the chaos of a new baby, and how most adults in this country have lived a lifestyle that involves driving.

What DID interest me was the parallel between how hate crimes affect a community, how bullying affects a school, the parallels between how BOTH are handled, and some specific overlap. I think it's interesting. In the microcosmic & microcosmic.

Which is what I commented on.

I hardly expected the Spanish Inquistion, and being asked to prove that bullying is handled differently today than it was 20 or 30 years ago, and to cite my sources, along with vague threats, and now insults.

Oh. Specifically. The laughter was trying to keep things light hearted.

Q

[Leah]

I'm really confused as to where the snarkiness is coming from.

In my world, EVERYTHING I said is common knowledge. Parents and teachers from at least K onward (and sometimes preK onward) are loaded down with this information in 100 forms year in and year out. We have forms to sign, policies to work with, playground conversations, gripes to friends (or from friends), news accounts.

Annatess used the phrase "public schools are notorious" for a VERY good reason.

How bullying is dealt with, and common problems, is common knowledge.

I'm beginning to realize that maybe some here aren't in the K-12 system, so it's not common knowledge... But surely not wanting to get into the nitty gritty about ones work or daily life can't be hard to empathize with.

It's like writing a post in a fairly general sense on babies, and then being asked to cite trending in attachment parenting vs cry it out compare and contrast between parenting styles, and while you're at it ... Or mentioning something about driving and being asked to source and cite traffic laws.

Explaining, sourcing, and citing common knowledge is a HUGE undertaking.

Could I search through and find the statistical models for all 50 states + DC? Sure.

Could I source and cite hundreds of articles written over the past 20 years? Of course.

Heck, I could go and scan the employee, student, and parent handbooks and all of my meeting notes along with every educational conference I've ever been to!

To what purpose?

To convince a stranger, who doesn't believe me, about how bullying policy works in the modern day school system?

They don't NEED all of that. Instead... They can do a quick engine search, find tens of sounds of sources... And explore at their leisure to the degree that the topic interests them.

The topic interests me not at all. I've lived it. Just like any parent of a newborn has lived with the chaos of a new baby, and how most adults in this country have lived a lifestyle that involves driving.

What DID interest me was the parallel between how hate crimes affect a community, how bullying affects a school, the parallels between how BOTH are handled, and some specific overlap. I think it's interesting. In the microcosmic & microcosmic.

Which is what I commented on.

I hardly expected the Spanish Inquistion, and being asked to prove that bullying is handled differently today than it was 20 or 30 years ago, and to cite my sources, along with vague threats, and now insults.

Oh. Specifically. The laughter was trying to keep things light hearted.

Q

The snarkiness is in your imagination. It is not snarky to ask someone to back up their statement of "fact" with citations. Nor is it snarkiness to be perplexed by your reaction of hysterical laughter to a simple and appropriate request.

I am, however, not in the least bit perplexed by your continued refusal to simply provide citations for something you are supposedly an expert in. I would think if you are as knowledgeable about this area as you claim to be, it would take far less energy to simply answer the question, rather than expending so much energy being condescending.

Someone who actually has citations will provide them. There is nothing to be achieved by not doing so. They are not threatened by the request.

Those that don't have any citations....don't.

[Guest]

The snarkiness is in your imagination. It is not snarky to ask someone to back up their statement of "fact" with citations. Nor is it snarkiness to be perplexed by your reaction of hysterical laughter to a simple and appropriate request.

I am, however, not in the least bit perplexed by your continued refusal to simply provide citations for something you are supposedly an expert in. I would think if you are as knowledgeable about this area as you claim to be, it would take far less energy to simply answer the question, rather than expending so much energy being condescending.

Someone who actually has citations will provide them. There is nothing to be achieved by not doing so. They are not threatened by the request.

Those that don't have any citations....don't.

What exactly is so questionable in his statements that its like he's lying because he won't provide citations? I did not see anything that Quinn says that is so controversial and against the grain of public knowledge - well, in my case as a mother of 2 kids in public school - that it's so important to provide citations? I don't work in that hell hole yet I see what he means and what he's been through. Most of my kid's teachers are so inundated by it that they walk on eggshells. And therein lies the source of zero tolerance policies.

If you don't believe a word he says, then just say you don't believe it and move on. If it's that important to you, look it up.

[Leah]

What exactly is so questionable in his statements that its like he's lying because he won't provide citations? I did not see anything that Quinn says that is so controversial and against the grain of public knowledge - well, in my case as a mother of 2 kids in public school - that it's so important to provide citations? I don't work in that hell hole yet I see what he means and what he's been through. Most of my kid's teachers are so inundated by it that they walk on eggshells. And therein lies the source of zero tolerance policies.

If you don't believe a word he says, then just say you don't believe it and move on. If it's that important to you, look it up.

I never stated that I don't believe him, but let's play the game for fun.

If I made the statement that I researched his claims and found them to be completely unsubstantiated, who should be believed? If his assertions are to be believed based solely on "because I said so",why shouldn't mine?

It is bizarre that you act as though asking for citations is some sort of unusual occurrence. It is not. If someone is making a claim of fact in a discussion, how else are they going to prove their claim? "Because I said so" isn't proof.

We're not talking about a testimony of the Book of Mormon here. We are talking about someone stating that they know something to be a fact, that is supposed to be common knowledge that we should all know, but they cannot provide anything to back up their claim.

But hey, I guess if it's on the internet it must be true.

I guess I should believe all the anti-Mormon sites, then.

[jerome1232]

I never stated that I don't believe him, but let's play the game for fun.

If I made the statement that I researched his claims and found them to be completely unsubstantiated, who should be believed? If his assertions are to be believed based solely on "because I said so",why shouldn't mine?

It is bizarre that you act as though asking for citations is some sort of unusual occurrence. It is not. If someone is making a claim of fact in a discussion, how else are they going to prove their claim? "Because I said so" isn't proof.

We're not talking about a testimony of the Book of Mormon here. We are talking about someone stating that they know something to be a fact, that is supposed to be common knowledge that we should all know, but they cannot provide anything to back up their claim.

But hey, I guess if it's on the internet it must be true.

I guess I should believe all the anti-Mormon sites, then.

Frankly I don't think he gives a ____ if you do believe him or not.

[pam]

*whispers* Quin is a female. :)

[Still_Small_Voice]

"Zero Tolerance" policies are very problematic in public schools. Read the below Wahington Times article:

Fifth-graders in California who adorned their mortarboards with tiny toy plastic soldiers last week to support troops in Iraq were forced to cut off their miniature weapons. A Utah boy was suspended for giving his cousin a cold pill prescribed to both students. In Rhode Island, a Kindergartner was suspended for bringing a plastic knife to school so he could cut cookies.

Read more: Zero tolerance runs amok - Washington Times

[Guest]

I never stated that I don't believe him, but let's play the game for fun.

If I made the statement that I researched his claims and found them to be completely unsubstantiated, who should be believed? If his assertions are to be believed based solely on "because I said so",why shouldn't mine?

It is bizarre that you act as though asking for citations is some sort of unusual occurrence. It is not. If someone is making a claim of fact in a discussion, how else are they going to prove their claim? "Because I said so" isn't proof.

We're not talking about a testimony of the Book of Mormon here. We are talking about someone stating that they know something to be a fact, that is supposed to be common knowledge that we should all know, but they cannot provide anything to back up their claim.

But hey, I guess if it's on the internet it must be true.

I guess I should believe all the anti-Mormon sites, then.

Just because somebody wrote it doesn't mean you have to believe it. Especially if it's not cited. Regardless of whether it's by Quin, by Leah, by JAG, or by Anatess. But, if one doesn't want to cite anything, you shouldn't have to pressure her to do so just so you could believe it. Don't believe it or believe it. It's up to you. I do this even when the material is cited. Lots of citations are not trustworthy either. Basically, if you really want to know if it's true or not, you don't have to take Quin's word. There's lots more places to look in the internet to look it up. It will take Quin the same amount of time to dig through all her material than for us to dig the material ourselves. And we're being lazy if we expect Quin to spend that time for us. And that's really all Quin was saying. Well, not the lazy part. That's me saying that.

Edited September 16, 2013 by anatess

[Still_Small_Voice]

Here is another victim of the "Zero Tolerance" policies in public schools.

16-Year-Old Hunter Forgets Knife in Pocket at School Football Game and Quickly Turns It in — but What Happened Next Has His Parents Furious | Video | TheBlaze.com

[Gretchen]

When I was in high school (I graduated almost three years ago) I got in trouble for bringing Neosporin to school. I probably could have gotten expelled if they found out I had ibuprofen with me too (I get migraines, so I never go anywhere without something in case I need it)