Church Planting and growth

[JodyTJ]

I've been looking over the statistics for 2012 and I've noticed something that bugs me. With nearly 15 million members, we only have 29,014 wards and branches. If that is the case, then each meetinghouse has around 300-500 members. That is huge. I took a look at two other churches that are growing fast: the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Here's what I've noticed:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

Members: 14,782,473 (as of 2012)

Meetinghouses: 29,014 (average 500 members)

Baptisms per year: 341,127

The Seventh-day Adventist Church:

Members: 17,214,683 (as of 2011)

Churches: 71,048 (average 300-400 members)

Baptisms/Professions of Faith per year: 1,050,785

Jehovah's Witnesses

Members: 7,782,346 (peak) / 7,538,994 (average) (as of 2012)

Kingdom Halls: 111,719 (average 75-120 members)

Baptisms per year: 268,777

As you can see, both the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses have more churches then we do, and the Jehovah's Witnesses have less members. Realistically, to have a comfortable amount of members in each meetinghouse, we would need close to what the Adventists have. Maybe 60,000 meetinghouses? A lot of people in Africa, Asia, and parts of Latin America have no access to the internet. They would know nothing about the LDS Church. If, however, there were more meetinghouses, people would notice and say "hey, that looks interesting, I want a tour" or something like that. I also think activity rates would skyrocket, as well as baptisms. Many Mormons have to drive many miles to get to church and some just give up. If we had more meetinghouses, more people would come since it would be closer.

Our church is continuing to grow (very fast), so wouldn't it be wise to have a lot more meetinghouses?

Sources:

LDS Statistics and Church Facts | Total Church Membership

Adventist.org: The Official Site of the Seventh-day Adventist world church

About Jehovah’s Witnesses

[estradling75]

JodyTJ...

Did you know that the church commonly gets two or three congregations into a single building?

They can get even more but usually that is about the time they start building a new building

[JodyTJ]

JodyTJ...

Did you know that the church commonly gets two or three congregations into a single building?

They can get even more but usually that is about the time they start building a new building

Yeah I know. But I mean, some people have to drive a long way to get to church. I would think having more meetinghouses would be better, at least for people in Africa, Latin America and Asia.

But wouldn't you agree that the church needs more meetinghouses? Especially in areas that need it.

[estradling75]

But wouldn't you agree that the church needs more meetinghouses? Especially in areas that need it.

That is a self referential statement. (It needs more where it needs it)

The church is always building more... Its got lots of practice at it. It builds according to the size of its membership base in the area.

It does no good for a church to build lots of building to save a some members a long trip if there aren't enough members to support a new congregation.

Remember that the leadership of the local congregation is from the local congregation so the LDS has a need for a larger concentration of the members to reach the critical mass to keep the congregation functioning.

[Jenamarie]

Just because there's no meeting house in a particular area doesn't mean the congregation doesn't meet locally. When my DH was growing up in Canada his little branch met in the gymnasium of the local middle school until they had enough members to justify the expense of a small meeting house.

[JodyTJ]

That is a self referential statement. (It needs more where it needs it)

The church is always building more... Its got lots of practice at it. It builds according to the size of its membership base in the area.

It does no good for a church to build lots of building to save a some members a long trip if there aren't enough members to support a new congregation.

Remember that the leadership of the local congregation is from the local congregation so the LDS has a need for a larger concentration of the members to reach the critical mass to keep the congregation functioning.

It is building more, roughly 300 a year, which is great. It just seems odd to me that the other churches have more congregations then us. I just thought, since we're a large church, we'd have more churches around the world.

[estradling75]

It is building more, roughly 300 a year, which is great. It just seems odd to me that the other churches have more congregations then us. I just thought, since we're a large church, we'd have more churches around the world.

You are confusing building with congregations...

Multiple congregations in the same buildings... and as Jenamarie noted congregations in rented locations do increase the numbers of congregations beyond the count of buildings

[JodyTJ]

You are confusing building with congregations...

Multiple congregations in the same buildings... and as Jenamarie noted congregations in rented locations do increase the numbers of congregations beyond the count of buildings

So, what you're saying is the amount of congregations the church has is much larger than the reported meetinghouses? If that's the case, that's welcome news. :)

[Jenamarie]

So, what you're saying is the amount of congregations the church has is much larger than the reported meetinghouses? If that's the case, that's welcome news. :)

Yup. Only once have I attended church at a building that only housed one ward. My current ward shares the building with two other wards.

[Just_A_Guy]

When I served in equatorial Brazil in 2000, it was ridiculously easy for local leadership to get a new structure approved by the Church authorities in Salt Lake. The Area Presidency's standing instructions to the stake presidencies were basically "just ask us; we'll get the ball rolling".

But that was the exception. Several American stakes I knew of had been begging for new buildings, for years. The Church is very careful with how it spends the donations it receives, and congregations are forever being invited to do more with less.

Moreover, because the church is member-run at the local level, setting up a new congregation isn't as simple as just installing a pastor and a building and letting the rest fall into place--you need a bishop, two counselors, an elders quorum president, two counselors, a Relief Society president, two counselors . . . And on and on for the SUnday School, Young Men, Young Women, Primary . . . bearing in mind that you'll have to rotate those positions out every five years or so. Simply put, it takes a lot of people to run a Mormon congregation.

And finally--yeah, we have some new-convert retention problems.

[JodyTJ]

Yup. Only once have I attended church at a building that only housed one ward. My current ward shares the building with two other wards.

I feel like an idiot now. Thank you for clarifying that for me. I'm not sure how many wards are in the meetinghouse I am going to attend.

[estradling75]

I just looked at your sources and I think you miss-read them...

LDS reports 29,014 congregations not meeting houses that makes a big difference in discussion

7th day Adventist report 71,048 Churches but 65,553 Companies Do you know which one is the building and which one is the congregation? Or is it something else entirely?

The Jehovah Witnesses appear to be correct in Kingdom Hall/Congregation.

So the your question appears to have nothing to do with physical building but why the LDS has fewer number of congregations for its total membership? Would that be correct?

[Just_A_Guy]

So, what you're saying is the amount of congregations the church has is much larger than the reported meetinghouses?

I don't think so. The numbers you cite for "meetinghouses" roughly match Wikipedia's claims for number of wards and branches.

[JodyTJ]

I just looked at your sources and I think you miss-read them...

LDS reports 29,014 congregations not meeting houses that makes a big difference in discussion

7th day Adventist report 71,048 Churches but 65,553 Companies Do you know which one is the building and which one is the congregation? Or is it something else entirely?

The Jehovah Witnesses appear to be correct in Kingdom Hall/Congregation.

So the your question appears to have nothing to do with physical building but why the LDS has fewer number of congregations for its total membership? Would that be correct?

I think the 65,000 companies are church owned companies around the world, I don't believe they are used for meetings. Not 100% sure on that.

And yes, that's correct.

[estradling75]

I think the 65,000 companies are church owned companies around the world, I don't believe they are used for meetings. Not 100% sure on that.

And yes, that's correct.

Alright lets start with Just_A_Guy acknowledgment of a retention problem.

The LDS church is very much a lifestyle based church... We do expect alot from our members and the transition from new member to regular member can be very rough. Add to that those that have crisis of faith or who were raised but never gained their own testimonies... and you get a retention problem.

And as Just_A_Guy also noted it takes alot more to have a functioning LDS congratulation then it does in other church. And that in some areas can require covering a whole lot of geography.

Simply having more buildings doesn't fix this problem. Retaining and converting are the answers. And the church is working on that as hard as it can

[Lakumi]

Yup. Only once have I attended church at a building that only housed one ward. My current ward shares the building with two other wards.

I think the one here only has one but I don't live in a large city

I could be wrong, but since its not that big I will assume its just 1

[Dark_Jedi]

Two points to make. First, in more rural areas of the church, in the midwest and eastern US, for instance, meeting houses can be some distance from each other, but still large enough to meet the membership needs. Our ward, for instance, meets in the stake center which was designed for 3 wards but houses one. The next closest building is 20 miles away but the next closest after that is nearly 40 miles. They also each house one ward. Our ward's Sunday attendance is about 150, and nearby wards are roughly the same. Building more building or creating more branches (they'd have to be branches) might make it a little more convenient for members (some of our members drive over 20 miles to church), there would be a viability issue and it wouldn't be a great use of church financial resources to build and maintain more buildings in this area.

Second, there is the problem of inactivity. The Church doesn't report activity levels, so there's no way to tell how many of the millions of memebrs actually attend. Our ward's attendance reflects just under half of the total membership. Again, I think that's about average for this area. A missionary from our ward serves in Chile where he says the activity level is very poor - 10-20% as a whole. (That's not a typo, and can be verified by Googling.)

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dark_Jedi

[Traveler]

One thing that has not been referenced is that the LDS church currently operates 100% debt free. Every building that is started is paid for before it is started. The Church will not go into debt to expand.

Many think the Church is very wealthy - I guess that is true depending on how one considers wealth. The point is - that operating the Church without debt in essence creates wealth and give the Church more stability.

The goal is not just to grow the Church. The goal is to teach and prepare saints to be ready for the return of Christ. To prepare all that would. The sad truth is that the Saints will remain a minority until Christ returns.

The Traveler

[pam]

[ Every building that is started is paid for before it is started.

Not sure if this is totally accurate but I could be wrong. Every building is totally paid for before it is dedicated. Not necessarily before it is started.

[Traveler]

Not sure if this is totally accurate but I could be wrong. Every building is totally paid for before it is dedicated. Not necessarily before it is started.

You may well be right - therefore let me amend my statement to say that the Church currently does not borrow money to finance its future or growth.

The Traveler

PS. It is my understanding from friends that work at the Church headquarters - that the money is budgeted before any project is begun - but it may not be paid for - but payment will be made in full before it is dedicated.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Traveler

[Dravin]

I think the one here only has one but I don't live in a large city

I could be wrong, but since its not that big I will assume its just 1

Meeting times can be arranged so that one ward is out of the building before another one starts it's services, this cuts down on the size needed to house two wards in the same building . I suppose if one is really curious they can look up a building on LDS Maps and find out what units are assigned to it.

[Lakumi]

Meeting times can be arranged so that one ward is out of the building before another one starts it's services, this cuts down on the size needed to house two wards in the same building . I suppose if one is really curious they can look up a building on LDS Maps and find out what units are assigned to it.

I think I was right in that there is just one here...

back in Ottawa I am sure there are more functioning at different times, as I know there is more then one meetinghouse

[Dravin]

I think I was right in that there is just one here...

Well, if you looked up the meeting house and checked what units are assigned to the building and only one is showing up, then yes, there is probably only one unit meeting there. Note that simply typing in a nearby address doesn't show you all the units assigned to a meetinghouse, what it first displays is the unit assigned to the building that encompasses the address you put in. You have to select the meetinghouse and then click on "other units here" to get it to display all the units assigned to the building.