Understanding men

[Guest]

For all the griping about how "tough" it is to be a woman (admittedly by me at times, too), particularly in the Church, I have to say that I sure feel bad for you guys sometimes.

[Just_A_Guy]

. . . I have to say that I sure feel bad for you guys sometimes.

(Our evil plan is working!!!)

[Misshalfway]

FYI...

Susan Johnson says that instead of communication, couples need Accessibility, Responsiveness, and Engagement. Approaches that are negotiation based or that are behavioral don't take these into account. I can fold the clothes AND buy the teddy and be very inaccessible at the same time. If you have those three, a whole host of imperfection and problems could be present and the couple will still feel great about the relationship.

In her work, all three translate into the sexual arena as well. If there is connection, it wouldn't matter so much if sexual behavior was erotic enough. Both would be sexually accessible and responsive to each other. She compares "sealed off sex" vs. "synchronous sex"; the first being focused exclusively on sensations and quality of orgasm. I think couples have a lot of this kind of sex. And they wonder why they end up feeling unsatisfied or insecure in the relationship.

Synchronous sex on the other hand, is about the whole package including all the emotional, spiritual, and erotic elements. It feels to me like a perfect blending of the yin and yang stuff and something that extinguishes the competition because both spouses can sort of feast on what they want and need. This is the gold standard, in the EFT world. You can have it regardless of style or preference or age or infirmity because it isn't focused on behavioral perfection.

She also talks about "solace sex" too which about relieving anxiety and not the best for creating connection. It just acts like a sexual soother. The problem here is that people are often out of touch with the anxiety or the issues causing it. And I think they conclude that if sex feels good then it must be what they need to fix the not feeling good.

Just thought I'd throw these concepts into the mix to see if this approach appeals to men more than demands to communicate more or to abandon their needs for sex. What do you think?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Misshalfway

[drham3rd]

I am curious to know what you mean by the bolded. Thx.

To me making love incoporates everything I can do to show my love and affection...from backrubs to washing her hair to looking deeply into her eyes...to breakfast in bed...to sex...the full attention I can give her.

[drham3rd]

Exactly! What do you do with that? I hate that message that men aren't suppose to need sex and sadly they do feel they get that message in therapy a lot!!! Yuck.

Perhaps I'm a little confused. I do understand that men use sex as a barometer for the relationship. I hear that a lot and feel the importance. I become confused when I see the man conclude that because sex was good that everything else in the relationship is hunky dory and so he retreats. Wife feels kinda used and then abandoned.

I guess I worry that the messages from women are being misinterpreted. I don't know that women fully comprehend where the man is coming from. Clearly we are missing it. Perhaps therapy has missed it too. But I'm struggling to see that emotional nurture isn't as important. And I think that I hear that men want and need a more dynamic interaction that just a sexual one too. So perhaps the sex only barometer does both sides a disservice. What I think to say is that it just can't be true that sex is a man's only need.

I think you have hit on one important aspect..the messages are being misunderstood between each party. The man is unable to relate his perspective and maybe not emotionally mature enough to understand her perspective and vis-a-vis! Maybe therapy needs to include some basic communication skills for both sides. It is difficult to sometimes understand another person without really wanting to understand them. It takes work and a willingness to put aside your own perspective and see the other one. That takes emotional maturity and not many have matured enough to accomplish that goal. If this makes any sense?

[Praetorian_Brow]

I believe part of the problem is that women seem to make themselves more attractive and look inward in the hopes of external appreciation, rather than just expressing verbal or physical interest in the man. Its as if some woman believe that making themselves more attractive will change the interaction and base their success of the man's reaction, rather than simply expressing interest in the man.

The man is confused by this idea that the woman works on herself, as if she believes that working on herself is a solution to the man's frustration, but seems to forget him in the process.

I'll never understand women, as I don't think its necessary to speak of everything, I can think of nothing when I wish and speaking of feelings all the time confuses me.

[Lakumi]

I believe part of the problem is that women seem to make themselves more attractive and look inward in the hopes of external appreciation, rather than just expressing verbal or physical interest in the man. Its as if some woman believe that making themselves more attractive will change the interaction and base their success of the man's reaction, rather than simply expressing interest in the man.

The man is confused by this idea that the woman works on herself, as if she believes that working on herself is a solution to the man's frustration, but seems to forget him in the process.

I'll never understand women, as I don't think its necessary to speak of everything, I can think of nothing when I wish and speaking of feelings all the time confuses me.

I don't understand humans, men or women...

I know how you feel

[applepansy]

You've outlined the "confusion" well.

The part of the pattern you might be missing is what Leah mentioned. What happens when she folds the shirts AND buys a new teddy AND tells him he is handsome and sexy and he still walks away feeling unwanted sexually. And when asked wishes she were more "orgasmic" in her expressions of interest.

My guess is that he needs to see evidence that his prowess his "worked". And that perhaps its too hard for him to access and acknowledge insecurity or fear he has about his appeal to a woman sexually. It don't know men really feel about talking about this. But if they could and if their women could sort of rescue them or sooth them, she wouldn't need to compromise behaviorally. At least that is the theory....

Can you help me understand what it is like for a man when these additional parts are factored in?

I know this can be an issue for men. On a personal note this fear surfaced for my husband when I got sick. It took almost a decade for him to talk about it. It took a long time for him to understand that I didn't need an orgasm to love him and I didn't need an orgasm to want sex. When health issues arise these issues surface faster than in marriages where both husband and wife are physically healthy.

I read an article years ago that stated men need sex to feel love and women need to feel loved to want sex. We often talk about this when we discuss desire in women but we don't talk about it when discussing sexuality in men. What this article helped me with was understanding that I needed to verbally and physically express love in other ways. It also took a lot of reminders before my husband believed I loved him even if I didn't have an orgasm. Sometimes its still an issue.

I haven't read through the whole thread. But I want to add one thing that keeps popping into my head as I've read the first few pages: "Selfishness has no place in marriage and definitely not in the bed." It applies to both men and women. When we place conditions on our love (physical or otherwise) then we're setting ourselves up for heartache.

[MrShorty]

More random thoughts:

I'll direct the man to this in one way or another highlighting the needs for emotional intercourse as well as sexual intercourse or how one enhances the other. The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands.

How much of this could just be "defensiveness" or whatever you want to call it. I'm reminded of a comment I recently read on Laura Brotherson's strenghtening marriage blog. A husband had bought her book (And They Were not Ashamed) and asked his wife to read it. She read a little, but stopped reading because she " feels like the book is targeting her and how she was raised." As a thought experiment, what would happen if a therapist emphasized the sexual relationship even more? Would they begin to alienate the wives instead of the husbands?

I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

Disclosure: I'm writing from the point of view of one in a truly sexless marriage, so I have a really hard time understanding the frustration of the Woody Allens of the world ("almost never -- 3 times a week" which still isn't enough). As I have contemplated therapy for my own marriage, one of the big fears that holds me back is fear of finding a therapist who will spend all or most of the effort on the ways that I am doing the relationship wrong and will be unwilling or ineffective at challenging my wife to engage in a sexual relationship.

Could it be possible that the husbands in your practice are picking up on this vibe (consciously or subconsciously) and inflating it into something much more than you intend (which we often do when we are feeling defensive)? I expect that, if and when I end up in therapy, that is going to be a real challenge for me -- being able to accept the therapists "criticisms" and suggestions without feeling like his/her neutrality is compromised. Would these husbands be more "on board" if they could see that you are ready and willing to "challenge" their wives in things sexual?

I think this is a lot of what intrigued me in Dr. Schnarch's "leftovers" articles. Neither spouse is right or wrong in their sexual desires, likes, and dislikes. What is "wrong" is never challenging those wants, likes, and dislikes -- especially where the couple is in conflict. Of course, this isn't just about challenging the more "inhibited" to loosen up, it is also about challenging the "less inhibited" to really examine the importance he/she attaches to X (desire, position, activity, etc.) and explore it. If a husband feels that you are more willing to challenge the importance he attaches to "desire" (whatever that looks like to him) and less willing to challenge his wife to explore her lack of such desire -- he might feel like therapy is not reaching him.

[Guest]

The difference between men and women is very much displayed for all to see in this season's The Ultimate Fighter. I was just blah about the show before, but this season, I'm glued to the set!

[mnn727]

I couple the two because that is how it's described to me by my clients. This is the content of the way they express their concerns. He says, "She doesn't love me. She doesn't show me she loves me." She said, "But I do. I fold your shirts and make you dinners and comfort you when you've had a bad day. " He says, "Yes, but that's not enough. I need you to want me sexually."

.

Then your question back to the man would be; " How do you want her to display that to you?"

as all men are different in their wants and desires (just as all women are different in t heir wants and desires)

and if they can't describe it it MAY be that they are too embarrassed to say it in that setting

[estradling75]

After thinking about it some more, on the case of Husband not feeling sexually desired by his wife their might be a more simple way to bring it out. Generally speaking guys are pretty direct... Direct people generally think that if you want something you take action to get it.

So ask each of them how often they initiate sex.

In the case presented I would wager that the guys feels (right or wrong) that he is very near 100%. Thus to him no matter how willing she is once he starts things, she is 'Not really interested.'

There can be many reason why he feels that way... Maybe he never gives her a chance to... Maybe she tries but her approach is sideways to his expectations and he misses it... Maybe she is like 'I have to do another thing? Why can't I let him handle it? He is good at it'... Maybe it part of the 'Good girls Don't' that the wife might not even know she still has...

There could be lots of different reasons and each reason would need a different approach to help them resolve it.

[mnn727]

Again, I get confused when I see the wife IS interested in sex, and her man, and engaging in sex twice a week but still gets interpreted as not wanting him. My female brain wants to protest and defend. Does she have to become something more sexually exaggerated in order to convince the man he is sexually desirable? I don't feel comfortable asking a woman to engage in sexual behavior she isn't comfortable with to solve the problem.

Then the problem will remain. Most men are very visual and action oriented. Women may have to exaggerate occasionally, whats wrong with that? (assuming she loves the guy and is sexually interested in him) I had to learn how to make love to my wife to please her, sometimes you need to step out of yourself and work on your spouses needs and desires - that's part of what love is all about.

This visual/action oriented thing tends to grow less as we age, in my late 50's I prefer a loving companion/best friend more than I did in my 20's. In my 20's my dw greeting me in sexy lingerie when I got home from work saying "I want you" would have been great, or a trail of her clothes leading from the front door to the bedroom -- wow! Today (at age 57) I'd just break down laughing or ask her if she needed help finding the laundry basket.

[rameumptom]

I think it comes down to one of the basic differences between men and women: communication. Men seek solutions and give them. Women want to be heard and experience empathy for their plight.

What a woman may consider satisfying in regards to sex, may be very different from the man's, and vice versa. She may be happy with just being held, while he may want to be romanced in a way that makes him feel whole.

As for men and strong women, it is part of the problem in society. We've confused natural roles to the point where many men are confused with where they sit in the pecking order. If a man had an overbearing mother or wife, it may be that it now bothers him when a strong woman is his superior.

One thing that may help you is to learn to administer the Meyers-Briggs test. Understanding each person's strong and weak areas, can also help in learning to communicate with each other. Introverts and extroverts deal with others very differently from one another, for example.

[mnn727]

My sister in law won't french kiss my brother (her husband). He really wishes this was part of their intimacy but has learned to live without. I have to admit I feel bad for him and think she needs to adjust. The question is how far is too far and what is reasonable.

The problem may not be on her end, perhaps he needs to do something; Perhaps he's too wet or dry of a kisser, perhaps he need to use mouthwash more often.

I kissed one woman (back in the day) that was very wet and sloppy - turned me off completely.

[mnn727]

The reactions I get are often the same. "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." It makes me feel I'm not understanding the man or not communicating in a way that the man understands.

I uderstand that completely:

Men don't want to talk problems to death, they want to fix problems, thus "Therapy is always slanted towards the needs of the woman." because its all "talk talk talk about feelings" -- just do this (whatever 'this' is') and it'll fix the issue - problem solved - now lets get back to 'whatever'.

[Leah]

I know this can be an issue for men. On a personal note this fear surfaced for my husband when I got sick. It took almost a decade for him to talk about it. It took a long time for him to understand that I didn't need an orgasm to love him and I didn't need an orgasm to want sex. When health issues arise these issues surface faster than in marriages where both husband and wife are physically healthy.

I read an article years ago that stated men need sex to feel love and women need to feel loved to want sex. We often talk about this when we discuss desire in women but we don't talk about it when discussing sexuality in men. What this article helped me with was understanding that I needed to verbally and physically express love in other ways. It also took a lot of reminders before my husband believed I loved him even if I didn't have an orgasm. Sometimes its still an issue.

I haven't read through the whole thread. But I want to add one thing that keeps popping into my head as I've read the first few pages: "Selfishness has no place in marriage and definitely not in the bed." It applies to both men and women. When we place conditions on our love (physical or otherwise) then we're setting ourselves up for heartache.

This (the bolded) is really perplexing to me. And I am not making a judgment on your husband at all, because I know he isn't the only man who expresses this. But it truly boggles my mind that a man would equate lack of an orgasm with lack of love. Orgasm is a much trickier thing biologically for women to achieve, so it is more a matter of mechanics rather than feelings. I guess this is part of the reason women feel they have to fake it...because men don't understand and will wrongly interpret it as a lack of love.

And it never occurs to some men that they might just not be all that great at sex, and how that contributes to the problem.

[estradling75]

This (the bolded) is really perplexing to me. And I am not making a judgment on your husband at all, because I know he isn't the only man who expresses this. But it truly boggles my mind that a man would equate lack of an orgasm with lack of love.

Because biologically speaking men are designed to view sex as incomplete without orgasm. (Ponder for a moment how the male reproductive system works compared to the female) Given that many men equate Sex with Love... Therefore incomplete sex = incomplete love. It is very instinctive math on the guys part.

And much like you have done in being baffled by why guys would act that way... we are just as baffled on why females don't view it that way. Both groups have a hard time understanding reactions they don't share. Neither is wrong in their position, and both would greatly benefit from working to understand the other side.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think it comes down to one of the basic differences between men and women: communication. Men seek solutions and give them. Women want to be heard and experience empathy for their plight.

Bah.

.

[jerome1232]

If you ever experienced sex without orgasm as a man, you'd get it.

[Lakumi]

If you ever experienced sex without orgasm as a man, you'd get it.

so true

[Guest]

Bah.

.

THAT'S IT! That's me and my husband!!! LOL!!!

[drham3rd]

If you ever experienced sex without orgasm as a man, you'd get it.

Fortunately. I understand since I have times that I reach climax without ejaculation. As men age, this happens more frequently and once I figured this out, I could better appreciate my wife, who loves sex but does not have organisms! I actually welcome those times so I can better understand my woman!

[Lakumi]

Fortunately. I understand since I have times that I reach climax without ejaculation. As men age, this happens more frequently and once I figured this out, I could better appreciate my wife, who loves sex but does not have organisms! I actually welcome those times so I can better understand my woman!

I think he means no climax whatsoever

that's the worst

[drham3rd]

I think he means no climax whatsoever

that's the worst

Actually, I have to disagree, even though I don't climax, I feel satisfied! I guess its just me but that is my experience.