Afterlife awkwardness

[Kirkko]

I've been thinking about what it may be like in the hereafter if there is someone who has wronged you in this life in a way that though you can forgive them, you would rather not be around them or associate with them. Especially if it is something serious like sexual abuse, etc. I would think it would be uncomfortable in heaven if someone who had wronged me deeply was there too and we were supposed to associate with them. Let me know what you think.

[skalenfehl]

You have a misconception about heaven. If we cannot lay everything on the altar, we are not celestial material. That includes grudges. If we do not accuse, our Judge will not accuse us. If we cannot forgive, which implies forgetting, neither will Christ forgive and you will never forget.

[Guest]

In addition to skalenfehl's post, when you have forgiven somebody in mortal existence, you may still need to disassociate with the person for physical protection. This physical protection is not needed in the afterlife.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I've been thinking about what it may be like in the hereafter if there is someone who has wronged you in this life in a way that though you can forgive them, you would rather not be around them or associate with them. Especially if it is something serious like sexual abuse, etc. I would think it would be uncomfortable in heaven if someone who had wronged me deeply was there too and we were supposed to associate with them. Let me know what you think.

I think we will also more fully understand how far we have fallen by being mortal and realize how we currently are is not who we truly are. This is a temporary carnal state where we live according to the flesh. Our carnal-mortal drives is not reflective in a one-to-one relationship of who we really are. Each of us face specific challenges but the "thorn in the flesh" isn't intended to be a thorn in the flesh for eternity. I think once we see everyone for who they really are and not just their mortal stewardship then we can more easily forgive. I believe this is why Jesus could love the sinner more easily, He had a thinner veil as far as that goes and can see all of us as spirit brothers and sisters, realizing this is just a temporary stewardship.

I think this is more readily obvious in, for example, one who has Down's syndrome. None of us would say, they are that way because that is how their spirit is. In fact, that person's spiritual prowess is likely greater than a person who has a physical body that is less challenged. So, the physical challenges we face in this life, including the brain circuitry that drive anger, sexual drives, etc. are not in a one to one relationship with the spiritual self.

If the servant who only was given one talent doubled what they were given, he would have been on the same standing, in the end, as the one who received 5 to begin with.

This is why we cannot judge, because we cannot see the inner man very well. We cannot recall the glory of being a son or daughter of God. I think we constantly have to remind ourselves that everyone on this planet is a son or daughter of God and has passed their first estate, which means they believed and had faith in Christ and God's plan. We don't have authority to deny anyone the glory that comes with passing the first estate which should include more respect than we have for any man, with the exception of Christ. In other words, man is lower than the glory received by passing the first estate and your view of that person will at least be at the Telestial level, a glorified being for having passed the first estate, no matter what they did in this life. Of course, if they happen to be a son of perdition then you wont have to associate with them anyways.

[NeuroTypical]

though you can forgive them, you would rather not be around them or associate with them. Especially if it is something serious like sexual abuse, etc.

My wife can speak directly to this particular subject. She knew she had forgiven, when she realized that all she wanted for them, was to be healthy enough to no longer be weighted down by all those destructive sins which caused such misery. I knew I had forgiven my wife's abusers, when I was able to kneel down and earnestly pray for their souls. Not pray that they'd experience justice, or that they'd stop, but that they would walk whatever path they needed to, to be clean and worthy.

Yeah, here in this mortal sphere, we'll call the cops on them if they come around. We got conceal carry permits to protect our family from them. But we really do hope and pray that they'll do what it takes to give us the opportunity to embrace on the other side of the veil.

I think that's what forgiveness looks like.

[Kirkko]

You have a misconception about heaven. If we cannot lay everything on the altar, we are not celestial material. That includes grudges. If we do not accuse, our Judge will not accuse us. If we cannot forgive, which implies forgetting, neither will Christ forgive and you will never forget.

I don't think forgiving implies forgetting and that is my question/concern. If someone is abusing me and I am able to forgive and get past it, I will still know it happened and more than likely not seek that person out. To put it blatantly, if you were raped, would you want to spend eternity with that person? I know the answer is forgive and get over it, but it is easier said than done. I think it would be uncomfortable, but I only have an earthly perspective. I do like the reply about not remembering the glory of being a son/daughter of God, that helps with perspective.

[Kirkko]

My wife can speak directly to this particular subject. She knew she had forgiven, when she realized that all she wanted for them, was to be healthy enough to no longer be weighted down by all those destructive sins which caused such misery. I knew I had forgiven my wife's abusers, when I was able to kneel down and earnestly pray for their souls. Not pray that they'd experience justice, or that they'd stop, but that they would walk whatever path they needed to, to be clean and worthy.

Yeah, here in this mortal sphere, we'll call the cops on them if they come around. We got conceal carry permits to protect our family from them. But we really do hope and pray that they'll do what it takes to give us the opportunity to embrace on the other side of the veil.

I think that's what forgiveness looks like.

This is impressive. How were you able to get to that point? I think I may be over things and they come up again or I am reminded in some way and I desire justice and I get angry. I know I have a ways to go, but I would like to genuinely be able to say what you put in your above post.

[NeuroTypical]

It was not an easy path. It took her years and years, and distance between her and her abusers. It also took consistent answers from prayers, scripture study, temple experiences, and counseling with more than one bishop. Still today, she still easily gets upset when thinking about them. But she reminds herself that they aren't her problem any more, they need to work out their own salvation, or not.

These were family members. In this case, sticking 663.8 miles and a huge mountain range between her and them helped things quite a bit.

Kirrko, it's hard, but I testify to you that it is worth it. Forgiveness isn't primarily for them, it's primarily for you.

[Dravin]

I've been thinking about what it may be like in the hereafter if there is someone who has wronged you in this life in a way that though you can forgive them, you would rather not be around them or associate with them. Especially if it is something serious like sexual abuse, etc. I would think it would be uncomfortable in heaven if someone who had wronged me deeply was there too and we were supposed to associate with them. Let me know what you think.

I think ultimately we'll be past those things if we are living a Celestial existence. Think of all the pain and suffering all of us who have sinned have caused Christ. I'd hate to think he'd harbor feelings of resentment against us because we've caused him pain. If hypothetically Judas were to walk into the Celestial Kingdom, I don't see Christ wanting to stay away from him because he wronged him during mortality. I see him welcoming Judas with open arms and rejoicing that one who made such bad choices ultimately repented and made it to the Celestial Kingdom.

This is not to try and shame those who don't feel that way today, like I said, I'm talking about ultimately. The destination is clear, the journey, long, rocky, and not necessarily all that clear.

[classylady]

I think ultimately we'll be past those things if we are living a Celestial existence. Think of all the pain and suffering all of us who have sinned have caused Christ. I'd hate to think he'd harbor feelings of resentment against us because we've caused him pain. If hypothetically Judas were to walk into the Celestial Kingdom, I don't see Christ wanting to stay away from him because he wronged him during mortality. I see him welcoming Judas with open arms and rejoicing that one who made such bad choices ultimately repented and made it to the Celestial Kingdom.

This is not to try and shame those who don't feel that way today, like I said, I'm talking about ultimately. The destination is clear, the journey, long, rocky, and not necessarily all that clear.

Dravin, that's how I feel. If we are living a Celestial existence, and also those who have wronged us, obviously we will have repented of all our sins. I think we will know the true nature of our spirits, and will love one another with true Christlike charity. True repentance requires sorrow for our sins. And if possible we would want to right the wrongs that we have caused. I want to be forgiven for my sins, and I would hope that anyone I have wronged, would accept my repentance and sorrow.

Too often, I see people who have been "pegged" as being a such-and-such, i.e. wild, drunkard, addictive, lazy, abusive, etc. And, if the individual truly repents, and tries to turn their life around, "we", often don't accept their change. "We" always see their past, and have a hard time getting beyond it.

[Guest]

I've worried about that before. It helps to think of how things are in the temple. Things that happened on the outside don't seem to matter as much. People look at each other with different eyes.

I also try to remember that I have hurt people, too, and I hope they will forgive me for the things I've done. I think when we have a full understanding of how our actions have affected others, it will be very difficult. Of course I've hoped for that before in regards to those who have hurt me, but then I think about being on the other end of it, and hope for mercy. All I can do is try my best to hand all of it to Christ so that mercy will be fully realized.

[Kirkko]

I've worried about that before. It helps to think of how things are in the temple. Things that happened on the outside don't seem to matter as much. People look at each other with different eyes.

I also try to remember that I have hurt people, too, and I hope they will forgive me for the things I've done. I think when we have a full understanding of how our actions have affected others, it will be very difficult. Of course I've hoped for that before in regards to those who have hurt me, but then I think about being on the other end of it, and hope for mercy. All I can do is try my best to hand all of it to Christ so that mercy will be fully realized.

I agree with what everyone has said. I know I need to trust in the Atonement and have faith that, in the end, if I make it, heaven really will be heaven and there will be true peace. I do hope there won't be any awkwardness though.

[Backroads]

This is actually a notion I've been musing on for a few months now.

Consider the nature of the Atonement. With repentance, this Atonement is all-encompassing. Consider the repentance and grace involved in the Atonement. I believe that one day we will truly understand the impact and gravity of our sins -- and be completely separate from and beyond them. The imagining might be difficult, but consider the worst offender not beyond the power of the Atonement fully turning from sin and experience that change of heart.

I once read a book on forgiveness (non-demonational, not LDS) that spoke of a Godly level of forgiveness that goes beyond forgiving them and then maintaining distance, but one that truly seeks to love this person and build a relationship with them. Paraphrased, a line from the book: How would we feel if God told Jesus He believed in the his sacrifice, believed in forgiveness, believed all was washed clean... yet still didn't want to associate with us?

Now, I think this level of forgiveness is next to impossible for so many situations in this mortal existence. But I believe it is a celestial level that we can one day attain.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Backroads

[Traveler]

Understanding the atonement. Most of us think of the atonement through the glasses of our own sins. That it is a way through which we become clean of our sins. The problem with that point of view is that it is only half the purpose of the atonement. The other half is to free us from the sins of others.

It is this second half the so many miss in understanding the great gift from Christ of the atonement. The atonement of Christ is the means by which we are made free of the sins against us. Just as it may be difficult to understand how the atonement frees us from our sins - with the question of how is it that someone else can pay for our sins? If we simply think in terms of simple logic - if we are free of our sins because of the atonement what happens to others that were harmed by our sins? Of course the answer is that the price was paid by Christ and you are off the hook. So also are all those that have trespassed against you - they too are off the hook.

Thus it is that as we understand the atonement the question of the sins of others against us is covered 100%. The simple truth is that the only reason that in the next life that we may have any reservations concerning anyone is because we do not believe in the atonement of Christ. This is why we are told we must forgive everyone - realizing that the atonement of Christ fixes all problems. That is all problems with one exception and that is our lack of faith in the atonement to pay for the sins against us.

Because mankind is by nature selfish we must repent of this un-G-dly trait and become forgiving clean of all the resentment we harbor because of sin - it is only half done when we think the atonement is to free us of our sins. The other half comes when we realize that because of the atonement of Christ we also become free from the sins of others.

The Traveler

[applepansy]

Understanding the atonement. Most of us think of the atonement through the glasses of our own sins. That it is a way through which we become clean of our sins. The problem with that point of view is that it is only half the purpose of the atonement. The other half is to free us from the sins of others.

It is this second half the so many miss in understanding the great gift from Christ of the atonement. The atonement of Christ is the means by which we are made free of the sins against us. Just as it may be difficult to understand how the atonement frees us from our sins - with the question of how is it that someone else can pay for our sins? If we simply think in terms of simple logic - if we are free of our sins because of the atonement what happens to others that were harmed by our sins? Of course the answer is that the price was paid by Christ and you are off the hook. So also are all those that have trespassed against you - they too are off the hook.

Thus it is that as we understand the atonement the question of the sins of others against us is covered 100%. The simple truth is that the only reason that in the next life that we may have any reservations concerning anyone is because we do not believe in the atonement of Christ. This is why we are told we must forgive everyone - realizing that the atonement of Christ fixes all problems. That is all problems with one exception and that is our lack of faith in the atonement to pay for the sins against us.

Because mankind is by nature selfish we must repent of this un-G-dly trait and become forgiving clean of all the resentment we harbor because of sin - it is only half done when we think the atonement is to free us of our sins. The other half comes when we realize that because of the atonement of Christ we also become free from the sins of others.

The Traveler

Thank you Traveler. You said it better than I could. I was struggling to find the right words.

When we are able to forgive those who have hurt us the Atonement heals our hearts and there is not awkwardness.