White Shirts And Ties

[zshallr]

WHITE SHIRTS AND TIES

In all my life as a member of the church I’ve never lived in a stake or ward where so much emphasis has been placed on the wearing of white shirts and ties. It’s the great emphasis that has caused me to write this letter more then the actual doctrine being taught, though in all honesty both concern me greatly. Constant reminders and hints are issued on Sunday’s when out of compliance. Remember the “hall monitors” in elementary school? That’s exactly what it’s like going to church and the bishopric are the ones taking names. Its asked and emphasized in temple recommend interviews at both the ward and stake level. Having answered “yes” to the question of whether I will abide by the dress code I can’t be sure if my recommend would actually be denied if I said “no”. The question being associated with temple recommend issuance, and side by side with other serious questions I can only conclude that my worthiness in the sight of local leaders may be strongly questioned should I say “no”. Through the years there have been many talks presented from leaders high and low on the topic to denote some sort of worthiness or purity before God. In these talks references to temple attire are cited for support. The temple is a drama enacted through plays and presentations. Many things in the temple are literal but sometimes symbolic. Peter, James and John for instance were in street clothes in the Celestial Kingdom when receiving counsel and assignment from the Lord on their mission to Adam upon the earth. It could denote purity and cleanliness but in no way should a person be restricted from temple attendance for being out of compliance at block meetings on Sunday. Christ entered the temple in his sackcloth as did Moses on mount Sinai and early pioneer members as they took out their first endowments and even up to the Salt Lake period. Why do we not remove 70% of our other clothing such as dark shoes, black suite coats and pants for Sunday attendance? A strict dress code shows nothing of worthiness or ones spiritual aptitude. In fact it reduces spiritual progression or focus with this false sense of worship that never bears fruit. I would suggest that humble ragged clothing would mean more to God, showing ones humility, than the other as Alma taught (which I will be getting to in a moment). The attire we have begun to emphasize is the official dress code of Babylon in our modern day. Presidents of countries and nations, movie stars and CEO’s of corporate America sport and even set the standard just as the business and religious leaders of Christ’s day did (Matt 23). These are things to “be seen of men” or serve as a way of “enlarging the borders of their garments” as Christ put it. Some have speculated that this is what is meant by Satan who “leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord” (2 Nephi 26:22). The Book of Mormon makes it clear that churches of the past and future will also make this same mistake by “robbing the poor” to build church houses and wear fine clothing (2 Nephi 28:12-13). My studies of Christ’s life and all the holy prophets indicate they were humble in appearance and did not reflect any form of worldly professionalism. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? (Matthew 6:25). I challenge anyone to show a single place where a strict dress code has ever been taught by holy prophets on a regular Sunday basis or at all for that matter? Going on, Christ’s discourse in Matt 23 is perhaps the strongest verbal assault of our Savior ever recorded. He even went so far as to say this to the finely dressed leaders; “That the publicans and harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you” (JST Matt 21:31). Can you imagine the Savior declaring these words to you? We must realize why he delivered such words to these leaders of profession and religion. One scholar captured it well when he said.

There is a precedent for the bit of faking—a most distinguished one. Satan, being neither stupid nor inexperienced, knows the value of a pleasing appearance—there are times when it pays to appear even as an angel of light. He goes farther than that, however, to assure that success of his masquerade (given out since the days of Adam) as a picturesquely repulsive figure—a four-star horror with claws, horns, or other obvious trimmings. With that idea firmly established, he can operate with devastating effectiveness as a very proper gentleman, a handsome and persuasive salesman. He "decoys" our minds (a favorite word with Brigham Young) with false words and appearances. A favorite trick is to put the whole blame on sex. Sex can be a pernicious appetite, but it runs a poor second to the other. For example: We are wont to think of Sodom as the original sexpot, but according to all accounts "this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom": that great wealth made her people cruel and self-righteous. The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism. Longhairs, beards, necklaces, LSD and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock come and go, but Babylon is always there: rich, respectable, immovable, with its granite walls and steel vaults, its bronze gates, its onyx trimmings and marble floors (all borrowed from ancient temples, for these are our modern temples), and its bullet-proof glass—the awesome symbols of total security. Keeping her orgies decently private, she presents a front of unalterable propriety to all. As the early Christian writers observed, Babylon always wins: in every showdown throughout history, Satan has remained in possession of the field, and he still holds it. Its security and respectability exert a strong appeal: "When I see this people grow and spread and prosper," said Brigham Young, "I feel there is more danger than when they are in poverty. Being driven from city to city . . . is nothing compared to the danger of becoming rich and being hailed by outsiders as a first-class community." (Approaching Zion, 54-55)

To quote Brigham Young again.

It is the fashion in the world to embrace men in their faith, or a fine meeting house, or a genteel congregation, thinking, "O, what perfect order, and how pretty they look; how straight they walk to meeting, and how long their faces are during the services; how pretty that deacon looks under the pulpit; the people are so pretty, the meeting house is so nice, that we want to join such pretty people." Such feelings will take a people to hell. Embrace a doctrine that will purge sin and iniquity from your hearts, and sanctify you before God, and you are right, no matter how others act. (Brigham Young; JD 4:78)

Brother Brigham is one of my favorite prophets because he never dishes out todays normal helping of rhetoric but always comes to the point. It seems Alma and his congregation were in line with his teachings and understood the danger of believing otherwise.

And they did impart of their substance, every man according to that which he had, to the poor, and the needy, and the sick, and the afflicted; and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely. (Alma 1:27)

Perhaps normal every day clothes that were washed, clean and presentable? Another scholar who has written many books said this on the destruction of ancient Israel.

Ironically, appearances of true worship persist in every stage of apostasy. Laying stress on outward observances is often a symptom of alienation from the true God. When false gods are the order of the day, people must scrupulously preserve the exterior of true worship, or all is lost. When people reach this point, they confuse righteousness with actively congregating and religiously performing ecclesiastical duties. In such worship, institutional convention may become the enemy of spontaneity, resulting in dead, stereotypical devotion. The writings of Isaiah, pertinent to our day, commence with his indictment of those who actively attended religious meetings, who multiply sacrifices at the temple. Because the outward form of worship remained strong among the Jews, Laman and Lemuel, who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the lord, and all his commandments (1 Ne 17:22). Laban was an elder of the church (1 Ne 4:22, 26), but his heart lusted after riches (1 Ne 3:25). In actuality, the people of Jerusalem had "changed their Gods" (Jer 2:11). Their land was desolated because they were committing abominations, "whoring after their idols" (Ezek 6:9). (The Last Days Types and Shadows from the Bible and Book of Mormon pg 13-14).

I testify that the Book of Mormon is truly for our day, not only as a witness and a warning as President Benson coined but as a guide. He wrote a book (A Witness and a Warning) that was largely dedicated to Moroni’s message in Mormon 8. He clearly states that this chapter was to the LDS church and a study of it will confirm that. In there Moroni says this of our church.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. 37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world? 39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? 40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads? 41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer. (Mormon 8:35-41)

You must be or have the “Holy Church of God” in order to pollute it from within as Moroni describes here. Notice also that Samuel the Lamanite said that the “sword of vengeance hangeth over you” (Helaman 13:5). He was speaking to the Nephites. Guess who Moroni is speaking too? Us, the latter day saints/gentiles (Who are the gentiles? The Book of Mormon is "to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile" (cover page of the Book of Mormon, written by the hand of Mormon) 1 Nephi 10:14; 13 (entire chapter); 15:13-17; 22:6-9; 2 Nephi 10:10-11; 26:20; 27:1; 29:3-13; 30:1-4; 3 Nephi 16:4-13; 20:15-27; 21:2-14; 26:8; 29:1; 30:1-2; Mormon 5:15; 5:19-22; 7:8; Ether 8:23; 12:22-28).

This brings me to my final point and perhaps the story that will drive the point home. I reserve this illustration from the scriptures for last because the parallels to us today are frightening. After the onslaught of Korihor’s false doctrine and his deceived followers called the Zoramites, Alma immediately assembled his best team of missionaries in an attempt to save those that had been led astray. Those who followed Korihors teachings were primarily the upper crust and affluent. Alma says that the preaching of the word had a much greater tendency to lead the people to do that which was just, even more so than the sword (Alma 31:5). It was powerful in appealing to their minds which as Joseph taught is the only affect of the Holy Ghost (HC 3:380). Upon arrival of this missionary force to the Zormaites Alma was “astonished beyond all measure” at their manner of worship (Alma 31:19). Lets analyze their form. They did not keep the law of Moses, failed to pray in supplication to God daily, built synagogue”s”, which they congregated to only once a week. They had a pulpit or stand in the center high above the congregation which would only admit one person. A rehearsed prayer or testimony was given by every member which went something like this. We thank thee Heavenly Father that we have the truth and are members of the true church. We thank thee that we have been separated from the non members and we believe that we were chosen from the preexistence as the elect ones to come forth at this time. We believe that unless people believe our teachings and join our church that they will be cast down to hell by thy wrath. We thank thee that we are thy chosen and holy people. Again I site the words of Alma in response to this prayer. He was astonished beyond all measure. After this form of worship they returned to their homes never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand or pulpit. The prayer is remarkably close to any prayer or testimony meeting one might attend today. It’s funny that our own scriptures teach that non members who have not even received baptism may still be candidates for celestial glory (D&C 137). Yes, celestial glory!

What was their focus? The next few verses tell us in Alma 31:24-28. Gold, silver, fine goods, boasting and pride, worshipping with their mouths while being puffed up, even to greatness with the “vain things of the world”. Verse 28 is dedicated to one thing only which is the topic of this letter. I quote:

Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say—We thank thee, O God, for we are a chosen people unto thee, while others shall perish. (Alma 31:28)

Isn’t that interesting? They were to busy six days of the week in the pursuit of gold, silver, fine goods and the vain things of the world. But most of all Alma is sure to point out their clothing fads and that this is what their hearts were set upon. AND YET, he says, they would still pray to God with their prayers of vanity and self righteousness. Well, it gets worse. They were not just condemning themselves but the poorer part of the Zoramites were expelled from the temple and synogogues that they themselves had helped in building. Do you remember why? I do. After verse 28 and its description of worldly goods and before this next verse Alma calls it as it is, “gross wickedness” (Alma 31:26).

2 And it came to pass that after much labor among them, they began to have success among the poor class of people; for behold, they were cast out of the synagogues because of the coarseness of their apparel— 3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as dross; therefore they were poor as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart. 4 Now, as Alma was teaching and speaking unto the people upon the hill Onidah, there came a great multitude unto him, who were those of whom we have been speaking, of whom were poor in heart, because of their poverty as to the things of the world. 5 And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty, yea, and more especially BY OUR PRIESTS; for THEY have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do? (Alma 32:2-5)

This should send shivers down our spines and humility into our hearts. How would an investigator feel if he came to church and Zoramite Mormons snubbed him because of the coarseness of his apparel? This is the attitude we breed among our members with such teachings and observances. There is great danger in teaching such doctrines and I feel as if we fall into the category of those Pharisees and Sadducees as opposed to the publicans and harlots. What if Christ came to a meeting in his sackcloth, “long hair” and “beard”? My heart breaks with such a thought because I could not say that I trust every member in my ward to welcome the Son of God in such attire or lack of being clean shaven and groomed. I write this letter anonymously for fear of reprisal or loss of temple attendance just as the poorer class of Zoramites received. Would I loose my temple recommend or be released from my calling for expressing such views? These are all serious questions I have and questions I vocalize anonymously for fear of what may happen. I pray that my feelings will be considered with an open heart and sincere desire of my local leaders to have real intent to listen to one in their flock.

[MaidservantX]

You seem very wise, z. I have appreciated the sharing of your study (in this and other thread). I can't see anything that would bar you from a temple recommend. What are you afraid of? By the way . . . the church 'breeds' this attitude??? You know . . . there are wards all over the earth. Each one is different. I think you are in the wrong ward. Sounds like they may have some weaknesses, I wouldn't know, I'll have to take your word for it. We've got a lady here that wears pants to church and we have a gentleman that smelled like cigarette smoke, but he was handing out materials in the library for people's lessons. You sound as if you have a great deal of judgment in you, so maybe that's why you can notice it so easily in others.

By the way, I have NEVER been taught that persons that do not belong to our church will go to hell. In fact the opposite!!! I hear other Christian sects saying that the those who have not done it their way will go to hell!! But the church teaches three degrees of glory --- Glory will be rewarded to all!!! The LDS church barely even has a hell. Perdition, but no one you or I know will ever go there.

Good luck in your life journey. I look forward to hearing more of your teaching.

[Dr T]

WElcome to LDS Talk Z.

You look to have your head full of issues (once only openied two of your threads) based on the length of your posts and the number of threads you have already started. Welcome :)

[CrimsonKairos]

We are to wear our best to Church, to show respect for God.

Some members are shallow as far as appearance goes (in my experience, particularly in Utah).

Wear your best, do your best, leave to God the rest. B)

[Dr T]

CK. I love you. (no-DTG) You should write some poetry sir.

[CrimsonKairos]

Hahaha, thanks Dr. T. Love you too bro.

[a-train]

So, are we to understand that the point of the OP is simply that Church leaders may be overstepping their bounds in requiring priesthood holders to wear a white dress shirt and a tie? The brethren have become so over-zealous in this regard that a biege shirt could keep a man out of the temple?!?!?!?

I will certainly agree that if this is the case in a given stake or ward that this is ridiculous. However, isn't the easiest solution to the matter to wear a white shirt and tie? I mean, isn't it just as ridiculous for us to wrestle with the Bishopric over nothing more than a white shirt as it is for them to wrestle with us over the same? If we are sued for our coat, shouldn't we give also our cloak? (Matt:5-40)

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Whoa, hold the stagecoach, a-train...that sounds entirely too reasonable to me! Seriously, good point.

[Saab900man]

As I understand it a white shirt and tie is viewed as the "uniform" of the Priesthood. If a priesthood holder want to give a blessing, bless the sacrement, etc we should wear a white shirt and tie. This represents purity and rightousness much like alot in the LDS faith it is symbolic.

[StrawberryFields]

About white shirts and ties...It has been my understanding that it is especially important when performing priesthood functions like the sacrament or blessings. It you are not participating in something like that then it doesn't seem like such an issue IMO.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Im in Utah and nobody gets out of whack when I wear my colored shirts - But that being said, I know that there certainly could be. Afterall, you know that we as humans, tend to make commandments at the drop of a hat, and like other people to follow them. If you've ever been on a mission and had a compainion that was a bit over-zelous, you know what I mean.

As far as commandments are concerned, we keep them because of love. We dont kill, because we love our fellow man. We dont steal for the same reason. Christ was the ultamate example of love: He gave his life for us, because he loves us. So, there's not much of a "love connection" with white shirts. Heck I have even been told that white bread can only be used in the sacrement ... WRONG! LOL

So, we try our best to do what our leaders say what we need to do. But ultamately, if its not a real commandment, its not one! I have a beard, and I am proud of it! I have a lot of fun with it too! Sometime I'll shave a bit off and have an awesome goatee and long side burns ... that's really fun to see them get going. Maybe someday I'll get a tatoo on my arm that says ... CTR! LOL .... Just kidding! -- But honestly, when I was inactive, I did get a tatoo of a liahona! True story ...! They say I'll have it through the eternities - I hope so!!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

Dude, a liahona tattoo? Wow. Do the spindles move around based on your faithfulness? That'd be so cool. B)

[sixpacktr]

I think that all PH brethren should wear a white shirt and tie to church, as it is the official uniform, if you will, of the PH. Is there anything wrong with colored shirts, etc? No, I don't think so. But in my last stake you couldn't participate in blessing the sacrament or passing or being an usher if you didn't have on a white shirt and tie. It was deemed on of the "unwritten rules" that has been outlined by Pres Packer, and was a mark of obedience to a "higher law". Also, we didn't allow priests to bless if they had facial hair or long hair. We wanted them to present a clean cut image and one in accordance with the office they held.

We didn't base temple attendance on a white shirt and tie, didn't even keep people out of the temple for drinking Coke (although, in the Atlanta area, Pepsi was considered heretical! ).

I found that wearing a white shirt didn't make me less free to do as I wished, and didn't chafe under it. It was an opportunity for me to show the Lord that I would be obedient in small things, so that perhaps I could be trusted with larger things.

[tiancum]

Did I misunderstand or did you say that they are asking you in temple recommend interviews if you will wear white shirt and tie?

Last time I checked, leaders were only supposed to ask the questions in the book.

[StrawberryFields]

I think that all PH brethren should wear a white shirt and tie to church, as it is the official uniform, if you will, of the PH. Is there anything wrong with colored shirts, etc? No, I don't think so. But in my last stake you couldn't participate in blessing the sacrament or passing or being an usher if you didn't have on a white shirt and tie. It was deemed on of the "unwritten rules" that has been outlined by Pres Packer, and was a mark of obedience to a "higher law". Also, we didn't allow priests to bless if they had facial hair or long hair. We wanted them to present a clean cut image and one in accordance with the office they held.

Yes, I think it is somewhat one of the unwritten rules. I also think it is something that is really pressed by the older generation. :)

[Guest Username-Removed]

<div class='quotemain'>

I think that all PH brethren should wear a white shirt and tie to church, as it is the official uniform, if you will, of the PH. Is there anything wrong with colored shirts, etc? No, I don't think so. But in my last stake you couldn't participate in blessing the sacrament or passing or being an usher if you didn't have on a white shirt and tie. It was deemed on of the "unwritten rules" that has been outlined by Pres Packer, and was a mark of obedience to a "higher law". Also, we didn't allow priests to bless if they had facial hair or long hair. We wanted them to present a clean cut image and one in accordance with the office they held.

Yes, I think it is somewhat one of the unwritten rules. I also think it is something that is really pressed by the older generation. :)

I do understand the need for tradition. It does gives a certain amount of solidity to society. The problem is that we risk some of the problems associated with jewish traditions such as rules for every occasion. Further, converts have issues with these rules because they have no basis in following Christ. Now, I realize that not every rule has that basis. But it is something that we have to be careful with. I believe traditions and "non-saving" rules are best left in the family, and not as much in the church. Last night I was talking to a returned missionary and she had a companion that made everyone around her not read thier mail until they finished tracting for the day. I've run into people that still believe that you must use white bread for the sacrement. BYU bans facial hair unless you have a written note from your doctor. We've had a lot of prohpets with beards, some with goatees! When I was in my youth, our stake president banned wearing vests without suitcoats. To me it all goes back to Christ - Are these things essential for our salavation? Where do we draw the line? When does it become unrightous dominion? Are the rules about Christ, or someone elses control? When do we make that leap from good to evil?

You history buffs can dive into the early church in Hawaii and find all kinds of issues there. Lots of rules, with an unfortunate ending. When we end up with alot of what I call non-sense rules, the label of "cult" becomes more earned.

I do believe we need to question this. Which is why I will truely enjoy my CTR tatoo someday as a constant reminder that we must stay on the path truth, and not let these subtleties of cultish control and untrightous dominion slowly creep into our way of life, dragging us away from the true gospel, like what happened in the early church in Hawaii.

For more information about the church in Hawaii, here are a few links ...

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Murray_Gibson

Light Planet : The church in Hawaii: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/hawaii.html

Im sure there are others - the links dont explain the full history, but enough to get an understanding. The church actually taught about the hawaiian mess and the related issues when I was in the MTC. A valuable lesson for sure!

[sixpacktr]

Word,

I don't see how these two things correlate at all, to be honest with you. With worldwide coverage, with the establishment of the area seventy, with a more mature priesthood, etc., in place, this would not happen today. There are too many people now that know what is supposed to be happening.

Again, not wearing a white shirt or tie (here in the US and other places where it is accepted) will not keep you from the temple. Neither will a tattoo. But leaders in the church have counseled us to wear white shirts and ties, and not to have tattoos, and not to have your ears pierced if you are a man or to only have one piercing if you are a woman. Personally, I would rather err on the side of following their counsel than not. Just like food storage, tithing, home teaching, etc. Again, this is such a small thing, but some people really really get bent out of shape on it, that it is impinging on their agency, etc. No, it isn't. You can do as you wish, but our HF is the ultimate judge of these things, and obedience is one thing that he notices, IMO.

[shanstress70]

When I was watching 'The Mormons' documentary on PBS, I noticed they talked about how the early men of the church had full beards, then all of a sudden they began having the clean-shaven look.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys here, just stating my opinion... I truly think God could care less about the clothing we wear to church. It's what's in your heart that matters. Also, I have never seen a pic of Jesus without facial hair, or with short hair.

With all the things to worry about, I honestly don't even think He knows what we're wearing, or if we have tattoos or piercings. It's trivial details that say nothing about who we are.

As far as me wearing my best for Him... I try to get my best attitude for Him before going to church, although my church is largely casual.

People who wear khaki's, or even jeans or shorts to church are no less sincere in their desire to worship God. Trust me, I've known many people who dress to the nines who are the most shallow people I've encountered! I think God would rather them change what's in their hearts, rather than to worry about the clothing they have on.

[StrawberryFields]

I personally have always liked the way the boys looked in their white shirts and ties as they pass the sacrament.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Word,

I don't see how these two things correlate at all, to be honest with you. With worldwide coverage, with the establishment of the area seventy, with a more mature priesthood, etc., in place, this would not happen today. There are too many people now that know what is supposed to be happening.

Again, not wearing a white shirt or tie (here in the US and other places where it is accepted) will not keep you from the temple. Neither will a tattoo. But leaders in the church have counseled us to wear white shirts and ties, and not to have tattoos, and not to have your ears pierced if you are a man or to only have one piercing if you are a woman. Personally, I would rather err on the side of following their counsel than not. Just like food storage, tithing, home teaching, etc. Again, this is such a small thing, but some people really really get bent out of shape on it, that it is impinging on their agency, etc. No, it isn't. You can do as you wish, but our HF is the ultimate judge of these things, and obedience is one thing that he notices, IMO.

Six,

I do love to play devils advocate once in a while. FYI ..

Im sure nothing would ever happen like this in modern day. Im sure there are no LDS splinter groups hiding in the hills of Idaho, or on the border between Arizona and Utah.

It is true, movements like this would be banned and leaders ex-ed, like it was eventually in Hawaii. It is a slipperly slope though. You dont really think the hawaiian thing happened over night do you?

You are right. Im sure there wont be anymore false prophets. I guess I should relax.

[sixpacktr]

Word,

Hahahahaha. I see what you are getting at, but again, I think that white shirts and ties and splinter groups with false prophets saying that it was made known to them that we should now be worshipping the latest incarnation of Arnold the pig are two completely different things.

These things have been taught from our prophets and apostles, those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. Again, to me it is a matter of being obedient in small things.

And just so you know, I thought exactly the same way for many, many years. I thought: who cares? My spirituality doesn't rest on whether or not I wear a white shirt! But a wise Branch President taught me a valuable lesson once and I have conformed ever since. Again, I wasn't coerced, but I saw that being obedient in little things makes a huge difference with the Lord.

Just MHO...

[Guest Username-Removed]

Word,

Hahahahaha. I see what you are getting at, but again, I think that white shirts and ties and splinter groups with false prophets saying that it was made known to them that we should now be worshipping the latest incarnation of Arnold the pig are two completely different things.

These things have been taught from our prophets and apostles, those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. Again, to me it is a matter of being obedient in small things.

And just so you know, I thought exactly the same way for many, many years. I thought: who cares? My spirituality doesn't rest on whether or not I wear a white shirt! But a wise Branch President taught me a valuable lesson once and I have conformed ever since. Again, I wasn't coerced, but I saw that being obedient in little things makes a huge difference with the Lord.

Just MHO...

Im glad you realize my point. I think obedience is huge, and I think there is merit for many of these rules. If you look up Number 6:3 you'll find one of the rules there was that the followers should not eat moist grapes or dried.

"He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, or eat moist grapes or dried"

Now, Im not saying that we do that, I am saying that there are times that we separate ourselves in a missionary effort. This also shows unity, when unity is needed.

However, I think we, as individual followers of Christ, need to survey, at least once in a while, why we do the things we do. When we label one person as "unrightous" because they dont follow a particular pattern, then we risk being the opposite we seek - if we indeed seek to be Christlike. It is true, that we must give up anything that gets in the way of our progression towards Christ. If for a moment I thought that my beard, my tattoo did that, it would be gone! On the flip side, there are people that do have tatoos, and beards, and these things do lead them away because of the culture they can represent. It is indeed good to be cautioned .... from both sides!!

I know who Christ is, and I know he loves me. Trust me, I follow nobody else but him. And if it be that we follow him together, we may indeed find that we wear white shirts together when we bless the sacrement. Isn't it nice to have the agency to do so, brother?

[JcDean78]

I think it must be part of that stake or ward. In my ward in TN, it is not a big issue at all. We even have some people in just a colar shirt with no tie but those tend to be the less active members and we are just happy to see them that I would never remark about their dress nor do I care to be honest.

I do wear my best but sometimes people have their "best" and feel a need to go out and get more to make a new "best". Such as some people would never ever have a need for a suit but they go buy one for church. I just do not see the need of why people would do this but that is just me.

Full disclosure, I was on the road one time and gone longer than I thought I would be. I ended up finding a local ward there and went to Church in shorts and a tshirt because it was all I had. I got looks but I met a lot of great people too and once people understood why I was dressed like that, most were just glad to have me. (There are always some stuck up people)

In my opinion, we should just be glad to be there. Be it in a white shirt and tie, a blue shirt and tie, a collar shirt, or a woman in pants (never knew that was an issue), or whatever... we should just be thankful that people are there and instead of making everyone feel selfconsious or worry about their clothing (which they might not be able to afford better), we should just embrace them and help each other all grow in the gospel and worry about the things that matter.

[LukeAir2006]

:)

[sixpacktr]

I just read Z's full opening, and to be honest, I'm shocked. Again, not knowing where s/he attends, it is hard to say it is or isn't true, but I have a hard time believing that the SP/Bishop could get away with that. The instructions are very clear on what can and cannot be said during a TR interview.

I don't know, but it is so easy to take potshots at the leadership and say they are weak and not as inspired as others, but it is our responsibility to follow them just because. Don't any of you believe in the doctrine of inspiration for our leaders, not only with the GAs but also our local leaders?

I guess I'm just surprised that people think that church leaders are out to get them, watching what they wear, judging them, etc. I have been in those positions, and have served with them, and nothing could be farther from the truth. They know who can and cannot afford "appropriate" clothing. Do some members judge? Of course they do. They're human and subject to whatever weaknesses they have. But to describe the church as "Zoramitish" damns our General Authorities as well as our local leaders.

In our current branch we have women coming to church in pants. I have a hard time with that. Do I chastise them, judge them, etc.? No, but I feel they either 1) haven't been taught that a dress is more appropriate, or 2) don't care, and are exercising their agency in a very mild act of rebellion. It is that simple. If they can't afford a dress, then the leadership is aware of their situation and there are moves made to help them.

You all are way too paranoid that everyone is out to get you. Heck, if I felt that way I'd have a hard time going outside.

Here's my advice: follow your local leaders, or better yet, become one. You'll learn very quickly how hard it is, because no matter who you are or how you couch terms, you're gonna make someone mad and have them claiming you are exercising "unrighteous dominion".